Then vs. Now

Entity · Sep 20, 2014

Last time we won 30+ games our roster then vs now. Which is better? That's if we don't make any other moves.

Brad Miller......Demarcus cousins
Ron artest........Rudy Gay
Kevin Martin.......Ben McLemore
Beno udrih.......darren collison
Mikki Moore......Jason Thompson
John salmons.......Ramon sessions
Francisco Garcia....Nik Stauskas
Kenny Thomas.......Carl Landry
Spencer hawes rookie.........Moreland rookie
Quincy doubly.........ray mccallum
Sheldon Williams........Reggie Evans
Dahntay jones.......Derek Williams
Anthony Johnson......omri casspi

Bricklayer · Sep 20, 2014

Entity said:

Brad Miller <<< Demarcus cousins
Ron artest > Rudy Gay
Kevin Martin >>>>> Ben McLemore
Beno udrih = darren collison
Mikki Moore << Jason Thompson
John salmons > Ramon sessions
Francisco Garcia = Nik Stauskas
Kenny Thomas << Carl Landry
Spencer hawes rookie >> Moreland rookie
Quincy doubly = ray mccallum
Sheldon Williams < Reggie Evans
Dahntay jones < Derek Williams
Anthony Johnson = omri casspi

A significant issue with the current crew, if it stands, is the lack of a third guy. Not just a third scorer/weapon, but a third guy elite at ANYTHING. Teams with dynamic duos can certainly win, but you really need Cuz and Gay to step forward and be that duo. Cuz is up to it, but Rudy would normally be considered a weak2/strong 3 best utilized as part of an ensemble, not a Westbrook to Cuz's Durant.

KingMilz · Sep 20, 2014

Miller<<<<Cousins
Ron Artest>> Gay
Kevin Martin>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Mclemore
Salmons = Sessions
Beno (at the time)> Collison
Mikki Moore<<JT
Garcis (NA) Nik (can't say we have not seen Nik play in the NBA)
Kenny Thomas (at the time)> Landry
Spencer Hawes> Moreland
Quncy< Ray
Williams<Reggie
Jones (cause he was a excellent defender)> Williams (more talented but)
Anthony Johnson > Casspi

I got then at 5 wins, now at 4 and a couple draws. I think we have the 1st and 4th/5th best player of that group meaning then they had the 2nd/3rd/4th I think in general for the most part aside from JT there role players were better than ours currently.

swisshh · Sep 20, 2014

We've already seen more from RayMac than we ever saw from Douby. I'm shocked Brick, just shocked! This a very important comparison.

Also, comparing Landry to Thomas is liking giving Carl a first round bye.

Entity · Sep 20, 2014

That season we won 38 games. The very next season we won 17. Hawes played more than miller and JT rookie played a lot. Biggest loss Ron Artest. Virtually same team except for Ron Artest. I think if this shows the front office or anybody for that matter is how important that #1/#2 man is. 21 game difference. Basically top 3 then vs now

Ron artest......Demarcus cousins
Kevin Martin......Rudy gay
Brad miller.......JT/collison/ McLemore

That's the difference. I'm ok with Rudy at #2 but we need a legit #3 or #2 and Rudy slides down a spot. Until then its all just an exercise in futility.

Entity · Sep 20, 2014

I believe or at least like to believe that our front office sees this. Which is why the pursuit of smith #3 and rondo #2

As it stands they even out 4-6 and improved 7-13. But remember that 38 win team didnt make the playoffs. I personally think we a player that pushes Rudy to #3 to contend. A player that pushes cousins to #2 to be elite

randymoss1881 · Sep 20, 2014

Entity said:

Agreed on the Rudy part we would definetly be a contender as long as that piece plays defense and Nik lives up to his 40% 3s. But there are select few players that could push Boogie to the #2 scorer. Lebron/KD are the only ones I think of. Guys like Harden, Russ, Aldridge wouldn't dominate the way I think Boogie will develop this year.

kingsnation · Sep 20, 2014

Bricklayer said:

Agreed with all of your assessments besides the above. IMO, there is no way Douby is anywhere near Ray's level. Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling Ray an all star or even a regular rotation player. However, I do believe Ray played decent basketball the latter half of last season when he was starting and showed more than just a one-demensional game like Douby had. I think Douby could be compared more-so to someone like Ben, unfortunately.

Bricklayer · Sep 21, 2014

Per 36 min, as rookies (Douby was on a better team and didn't get that final month minutes burst):

06-07 Douby 42gms 11.9pts (.381 .240 .733) 3.7reb 1.5ast 1.5stl 0.4blk 1.5TO
13-14 RayMc 45gms 11.2pts (.377 .373 .744) 3.2reb 4.8ast 0.9stl 0.4blk 1.6TO

Ray is closer to having a natural position in this league, which is huge. Tweeners often die short miserable career deaths. But as far as being more effective? We'll see if he is able to pick it up to create separation. Douby never really did, and that sealed his fate.

TonyTouch21 · Sep 21, 2014

2013 opening day vs. 2014 opening day.
Greivis Vasquez - Darren Collison
Marcus Thornton - Ben Mclemore
Luc Mbah a Moute - Rudy Gay
Jason Thompson -
Demarcus Cousins -
Isaiah Thomas - Ramon Sessions
Jimmer Fredette - Nik Stauskas
John Salmons - Derek Williams
Carl Landry -
Chuck Hayes - Ryan Hollins
Ray Mccallum -
BenMclemore - Omri Casspi
Travis Outlaw - Reggie Evans
Patrick Patterson - Eric Moreland
Hamady N'Diaye - Sim Bhullar ( not likely )

Warhawk · Sep 21, 2014

Bricklayer said:

Per 36 min, as rookies (Douby was on a better team and didn't get that final month minutes burst):

06-07 Douby 42gms 11.9pts (.381 .240 .733) 3.7reb 1.5ast 1.5stl 0.4blk 1.5TO
13-14 RayMc 45gms 11.2pts (.377 .373 .744) 3.2reb 4.8ast 0.9stl 0.4blk 1.6TO

Ray is closer to having a natural position in this league, which is huge. Tweeners often die short miserable career deaths. But as far as being more effective? We'll see if he is able to pick it up to create separation. Douby never really did, and that sealed his fate.

Well, the 3 pt % and assists greatly favor Ray. That's a good sign.

mdme · Sep 21, 2014

I like this thread. Maybe we can equate each comparison to wins/losses. Then come up with a summation of hour much better or worse we'll be vs 38 wins.

Just for kicks, I used Brick's >,<,= as wins/losses and surprisingly enough got a net of zero. i.e. we will be a 38 win team. Assuming the team FIT issue is identical.

Gilles · Sep 21, 2014

Well, besides players' ability there's also a question of "who is the coach?"

VF21 · Sep 21, 2014

TonyTouch21 said:

Thanks for this. Makes it pretty clear the front office hasn't just been sitting on their hands. We're definitely not a finished product, but at least we're a work in progress.

kingsboi · Sep 21, 2014

Wow looking at that team....that was a terrible looking roster. No bench either. Ron was our go to player, Martin was an up and coming scorer and Brad Miller was our offense initiator from the high posts frequently. 30+ wins shouldn't be the standard here but then again considering the kind of roster we have to THIS day....that's an improvement.

macadocious · Sep 21, 2014

I get what you are trying to do, but I don't really understand comparing a rebuilding up and coming team to a team that was, even at the time, obviously on the decline.

MassachusettsKingsFan · Sep 22, 2014

Ron was amazing, that's how that team won. The pieces fit, and those players knew how to play.

The Kings have been a dumb basketball team since then. Just not enough truly smart players on the court. And they play no defense. Ron was still a great defensive player.

I think DeMarcus Cousins is usually a very smart basketball player. I think Rudy is as well, when he is engaged. Collison... I need to watch more. Never struck me as a very smart player though. McLemore? No way. Jason Thompson? Not really. Love the way he plays most of the time, but basketball IQ isn't his thing. Stauskas? I've seen some advanced nuance in his game. Maybe. Landry always seemed like a heady player to me, but he has physical setbacks. Williams? nope. Casspi? not really. Sessions? I've seen some flashes, but I need to see more. Reggie Evans? I think he does what he does in a very calculated way. Smart in that sense, obviously limited in what he can do. I think McCallum has some of this in him as well, but I'd like to see more. Hollins? no. Moreland? way to early to tell.

That is one way of saying I still worry about this rosters collective basketball know-how. They are all professional athletes, yes, but do they know how to play basketball?

I made some pretty sweeping generalizations there. I guess the question I'm trying to answer is "How many questionable/dumb things does INSERT PLAYER HERE do per game"? That number has been pretty high for most of the Kings roster over the past few seasons.

CruzDude · Sep 22, 2014

As MassKingsFan said "That is one way of saying I still worry about this rosters collective basketball know-how. They are all professional athletes, yes, but do they know how to play basketball?" Which now leads toward how well coach can create a "team" mentality and attitude and use each players strong points within a team concept. Winning is more important than stats, working to get a better shot and learning to rotate on defense. If coach can build a truly team attitude, then the new crew can do 38 wins and likely into the low 40's, a big improvement in a tough west. But as James Ham had also said in his article to the effect, "team chemistry, do the Kings have it? can they get it?"

jcwkings · Sep 22, 2014

Talent isnt everything, look at the Suns last season. Before the season started someone looking at their roster would have predicted a last place finish in the west. They ended up close to 50 wins. I would say that Ron/ Kmart team was better though. Kmart was a legit 20 ppg guy, Ron was an elite defender and good scorer, Salmons was actually a good player, Hawes and JT while young both played with an exuberance. Brad was perfect for a scorer like Kmart.

Then vs. Now

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