The State of the Kings

Time to rebuild?


  • Total voters
    56
  • Poll closed .
Here's a question ... in today's NBA can you have a franchise PG/ballhandler who can't shoot from deep? I think it matters more for guards because guys like Giannis have the strength and athleticism to finish inside when it matters. The closest possible comparison I can think of for Fox is Westbrook/Wall, and again it goes back to the strength and athleticism factor - in crunch time/buzzer beater plays the refs are probably going to swallow their whistle on contact drives.

If Fox's ceiling is John Wall, is that good enough?
 
Each of those other players you mentioned went to franchises that weren’t mired in the midst of a 13 season playoff drought or hadn’t hired and fired a myriad of coaches in recent years and either already had talent on the team or acquired more talent after drafting those players.

Memphis had a nice core before they drafted Morant. Dallas sucked during #77’s rookie season, but have since managed to add a legit major piece to pair with him. Denver has been a stable franchise for quite some time. They also have an abundance of young core talent.

If you believe swapping Fox for any of those players you listed would magically make the KINGS just as good as the teams they left, you’re living in fantasyland.
We did make a bunch of mistakes over the years when it comes to players and coaches and I agree with that 100%.

What I was trying to say is that I haven't seen any of our high draft picks (Evans, Cousins, Fox) being able to drive this team forward, regardless of how the rest of the team looks like. Perhaps they couldn't do it alone, perhaps they're not as good as Jokic or Doncic, but their acquisition didn't result in any real upgrade in terms of our game and in terms of our score.

I think this year we have a pretty solid team and several good players, but they don't seem to play well together. Buddy and Bogi need a playmaker who's going to facilitate plays for them. Holmes could benefit from more pick and roll. Fox is the type of player that doesn't provide that. So what I'm saying is - either trade Fox for another great, but different point guard, or bring another star to make Fox the 2nd or 3rd player on the team.

This season we had 19-29 score with Fox on the court and 9-10 score when he was out. That doesn't mean he's not a great player, but perhaps he's not the best player for this particular team.
 
Here's a question ... in today's NBA can you have a franchise PG/ballhandler who can't shoot from deep? I think it matters more for guards because guys like Giannis have the strength and athleticism to finish inside when it matters. The closest possible comparison I can think of for Fox is Westbrook/Wall, and again it goes back to the strength and athleticism factor - in crunch time/buzzer beater plays the refs are probably going to swallow their whistle on contact drives.

If Fox's ceiling is John Wall, is that good enough?
Depends what you mean by good enough. Is it good enough to win a championship? Probably depends who is around him. It's absolutely good enough to be a consistent playoff team. You cited Wall and Westbrook as examples, and if Fox turns into that I would be ecstatic.

Fox's issues have been identified: he can't shoot (but he's less hesitant to take 3s, which shows me he is working on it), he's not a consistent defender, and he isn't really good at managing the offense. He has improved his mid range game tremendously and it shows in the 3 bubble games, he is carving up teams from mid range. But as many have said, he needs to be better about getting to spots that disrupts the defense and gets his teammates easy looks. Eventually the Kings need a system where he doesn't need the ball in his hands for the team to be successful. I mean that's how the Rockets work and teams just trap Harden and the Blazers showed perfectly how that neutralizes their offense. And Fox is no Harden. The Kings can't be successful if he has to have the ball in his hands for the offense to work. But obviously, there needs to be better coaching if that's going to change.

Should we blow it up and rebuild? I don't really think we have that option, to be honest. No one on this team has any value outside of Fox and Buddy (just because he is a good shooter). And neither has shown the ability to contribute to winning basketball, so how much value do they really have? Bagley has way too much potential relative to the return you would get for him. I'm not even saying he can be a star or whatever, I'm just saying that he has so little trade value, even if he can be a solid starting role player, you shouldn't trade him away. Because there's always the possibility he becomes so much more. Give him another year to try to be healthy and see.

I think as a result, you keep the core intact minus paying Bogi what he will likely demand. He simply hasn't shown he is worth it in the last 3 seasons.

Get a coach that has a clue what the he'll he is doing. It's not a coincidence that this year we are vastly inferior to last year despite having a better roster on paper, including the same core. How come all of a sudden this year the pieces don't fit together when they did last year? Luke has pieces that could fit, he's just trying to ham a square peg in a round hole over and over and over again and it doesn't work. That's in addition to the fact that he can't teach our team fundamentals. Most of our losses come because we don't box out, we don't know how to rotate on defense, we don't know how to defend on the perimeter (especially the pick and roll), etc.

Get a new coach, keep what you can of the core intact without grossly overpaying, see what you have in Bagley and Fox with a (hopeful,ly) healthy season leading the team, and then go from there. I don't know that there are many other options.
 
Generally, in the past I would say the offense is good and the defense is horrible, but at the current time it's quite the opposite. Other teams move the ball, set-up teammates and make the other team work on defense (the Kings not so much).

Guards-Fox
Listening to the Mavs' commentators during the last game they had a lot to say about Fox. They said the Kings didn't pick you know who because they were happy with the ball in Fox's hands. They went on to say that they didn't think "a team" could win with the ball in Fox's hands and that Fox does not look to distribute (he looks to score first).

Guards-Buddy
Several league insiders have commented that Hield looks out of shape. He has struggled on the court, going 7-for-26 overall and 3-for-15 from 3-point range through two games. That’s not a great sign for the Kings, who have Hield starting a four-year, $94 million extension next season.

– via Tim Bontemps @ ESPN

Guards-Boggy
Bodgan would be a good guard off the bench for another team. His defense is not starting caliber SG or SF. He should not have a 0-13 leash, but when your only other option is an out-of-shape Buddy, why not go with Jeffries?

Small-Ball
Walton's obsession with small-ball is over-the-top. We finally get Len ready to play and he played how many minutes? Bjelly is not a center. Holmes is doing a great job, but with Mr. Glass Bagley never playing we should look for a big that the coach will actually play.

Team Fit
The commentators for the Mavs also said the Kings have talented players, but they don't "mesh." With lineups like we are seeing, I'd have to agree.

Bubble
I hope we don't win a single game in the bubble now, the worse seeding the better.
unfortunately we can’t really improve our draft spot. The draft seeding is Frozen as of March. The only way we can get help is if New Orleans, with whom we are tied, or San Antonio get in the playoff over Memphis.
 
Depends what you mean by good enough. Is it good enough to win a championship? Probably depends who is around him. It's absolutely good enough to be a consistent playoff team. You cited Wall and Westbrook as examples, and if Fox turns into that I would be ecstatic.

Fox's issues have been identified: he can't shoot (but he's less hesitant to take 3s, which shows me he is working on it), he's not a consistent defender, and he isn't really good at managing the offense. He has improved his mid range game tremendously and it shows in the 3 bubble games, he is carving up teams from mid range. But as many have said, he needs to be better about getting to spots that disrupts the defense and gets his teammates easy looks. Eventually the Kings need a system where he doesn't need the ball in his hands for the team to be successful. I mean that's how the Rockets work and teams just trap Harden and the Blazers showed perfectly how that neutralizes their offense. And Fox is no Harden. The Kings can't be successful if he has to have the ball in his hands for the offense to work. But obviously, there needs to be better coaching if that's going to change.

Should we blow it up and rebuild? I don't really think we have that option, to be honest. No one on this team has any value outside of Fox and Buddy (just because he is a good shooter). And neither has shown the ability to contribute to winning basketball, so how much value do they really have? Bagley has way too much potential relative to the return you would get for him. I'm not even saying he can be a star or whatever, I'm just saying that he has so little trade value, even if he can be a solid starting role player, you shouldn't trade him away. Because there's always the possibility he becomes so much more. Give him another year to try to be healthy and see.

I think as a result, you keep the core intact minus paying Bogi what he will likely demand. He simply hasn't shown he is worth it in the last 3 seasons.

Get a coach that has a clue what the he'll he is doing. It's not a coincidence that this year we are vastly inferior to last year despite having a better roster on paper, including the same core. How come all of a sudden this year the pieces don't fit together when they did last year? Luke has pieces that could fit, he's just trying to ham a square peg in a round hole over and over and over again and it doesn't work. That's in addition to the fact that he can't teach our team fundamentals. Most of our losses come because we don't box out, we don't know how to rotate on defense, we don't know how to defend on the perimeter (especially the pick and roll), etc.

Get a new coach, keep what you can of the core intact without grossly overpaying, see what you have in Bagley and Fox with a (hopeful,ly) healthy season leading the team, and then go from there. I don't know that there are many other options.
Don't disagree with you in terms of our options, just asking what is really the best case scenario for us even if Fox reaches his potential (which I think is more like a Wall than a Westbrook).
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
Don't disagree with you in terms of our options, just asking what is really the best case scenario for us even if Fox reaches his potential (which I think is more like a Wall than a Westbrook).
The other issue mucking this comparison up is that the Wizards also horribly screwed up their rebuild aside from Beal turning into a star so even that comparison of Fox to Wall is a hard one to figure out.
 
The other issue mucking this comparison up is that the Wizards also horribly screwed up their rebuild aside from Beal turning into a star so even that comparison of Fox to Wall is a hard one to figure out.
Yup. At one point I had the Wizards pegged as becoming one of the top two teams in the East, though that was contingent on Durant going over
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
Yup. At one point I had the Wizards pegged as becoming one of the top two teams in the East, though that was contingent on Durant going over
Yep.
For whatever it matters though, John Wall didn't make an all-star team or the playoffs until his fourth season in the league either and was an absolute monster the season before his body broke down. I mean, he and Beal took a team who's third best player was the worse Morris twin to seven games against the Celtics during the IT near-MVP season. He was a GREAT player (not his fault the Wizards decided to give Otto Porter a supermax contract or pick Jan Vesely) on a bad team whose body then fell apart the second a coach and great secondary star came around. If De'Aaron merely turns out to be John Wall, I'd be ecstatic.
 
Here's a question ... in today's NBA can you have a franchise PG/ballhandler who can't shoot from deep? I think it matters more for guards because guys like Giannis have the strength and athleticism to finish inside when it matters. The closest possible comparison I can think of for Fox is Westbrook/Wall, and again it goes back to the strength and athleticism factor - in crunch time/buzzer beater plays the refs are probably going to swallow their whistle on contact drives.

If Fox's ceiling is John Wall, is that good enough?
It's fine if he can become elite somewhere else.

Defense, mid range, passing etc.

His elite skill right now is his speed
 
Yep.
For whatever it matters though, John Wall didn't make an all-star team or the playoffs until his fourth season in the league either and was an absolute monster the season before his body broke down. I mean, he and Beal took a team who's third best player was the worse Morris twin to seven games against the Celtics during the IT near-MVP season. He was a GREAT player (not his fault the Wizards decided to give Otto Porter a supermax contract or pick Jan Vesely) on a bad team whose body then fell apart the second a coach and great secondary star came around. If De'Aaron merely turns out to be John Wall, I'd be ecstatic.
We don't have beal though we've got buddy.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
We don't have beal though we've got buddy.
Yeah, I wasn't making an exact 1-to-1 comparison between the two because while both situations are bad, both are unique aside from organizational incompetence. The point being, while Buddy isn't better than Beal, the rest of this Kings roster is probably better than that Wizards roster. The Wizards also win in the coaching department in this comparison as well since, while not a great coach by any means, Scott Brooks is a good coach who knows what he wants to do and does it while also making adjustments to fit his schemes to his players while Luke Walton remains Luke Walton.
 
Here's a question ... in today's NBA can you have a franchise PG/ballhandler who can't shoot from deep? I think it matters more for guards because guys like Giannis have the strength and athleticism to finish inside when it matters. The closest possible comparison I can think of for Fox is Westbrook/Wall, and again it goes back to the strength and athleticism factor - in crunch time/buzzer beater plays the refs are probably going to swallow their whistle on contact drives.

If Fox's ceiling is John Wall, is that good enough?
Not with the current roster that's surrounding him.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
Here's a question ... in today's NBA can you have a franchise PG/ballhandler who can't shoot from deep? I think it matters more for guards because guys like Giannis have the strength and athleticism to finish inside when it matters. The closest possible comparison I can think of for Fox is Westbrook/Wall, and again it goes back to the strength and athleticism factor - in crunch time/buzzer beater plays the refs are probably going to swallow their whistle on contact drives.

If Fox's ceiling is John Wall, is that good enough?
I am firmly of the belief that you can have any kind of franchise player, it's just that some player types require less creativity on the part of the GM and coach to build around.
 
Here's a question ... in today's NBA can you have a franchise PG/ballhandler who can't shoot from deep? I think it matters more for guards because guys like Giannis have the strength and athleticism to finish inside when it matters. The closest possible comparison I can think of for Fox is Westbrook/Wall, and again it goes back to the strength and athleticism factor - in crunch time/buzzer beater plays the refs are probably going to swallow their whistle on contact drives.

If Fox's ceiling is John Wall, is that good enough?
I don’t think you can and I don’t think Fox can be as good as Wall/Westbrook. Westbrook was a triple double guy who could defend multiple positions and most importantly he was a dog who brings it every night. We don’t see that from Fox there’s no off days from Russ. Wall as well could guard multiple positions and I don’t think Fox will ever be able to run an offense as well as Wall did. Wall was a great passer which is often overlooked
 
I don’t think you can and I don’t think Fox can be as good as Wall/Westbrook. Westbrook was a triple double guy who could defend multiple positions and most importantly he was a dog who brings it every night. We don’t see that from Fox there’s no off days from Russ. Wall as well could guard multiple positions and I don’t think Fox will ever be able to run an offense as well as Wall did. Wall was a great passer which is often overlooked
Sometimes I wonder if we watch the same games and players.

Westbrook is surely as athletic as they come. And he’s one of the better finishers at the rim in transition I’ve seen in a while.

But he’s never been a stellar defender. He makes occasional plays. Everyone does. Even the bearded hag. But saying he brings it every night on the defensive end or inplying that he’s some defensive wizard is far off the truth.

How many titles have Westbrook and the Bearded Hag won? 23 seasons between them and they’ve each got ONE Finals appearance. Which they lost cause they are largely defensive liabilities. Both are in their 30’s now. If it doesn’t happen this shortened season with the Warriors out of commission and KD still on the mend. It ain’t likely gonna ever happen. Both players are so very overrated.

Furthermore, have you not been watching Fox all 4 of these games? He’s been their best player across all 4 games. He’s averaging 27.5 in the 4 games and getting others involved. He’s the team’s leading scorer on the season. And among their better defenders. How is that not bringing it consistently?

We don’t see that from Fox? You’re bordering on crazy talk.

Wall put up better assist numbers, but Fox is already as good a scorer or better. Wall can’t shoot it from deep either. And Fox is as fast in transition and off the dribble and is a capable defender.

You seemingly love every player not on the KINGS and undervalue every player actually on the team.

Is there ever gonna be a time when you aren’t dissing a KINGS player and claiming player x,y, and z on whatever team is better?

I half way suspect that if the KINGS actually did take #77 like they were supposed to and he was performing the same or better, you’d be dissing on his lack of elite athleticism and touting the likes of Kelly Oubre over him.

C’mon man. Give it a rest for at least one day.

Swipa is playing at a high level right now. Give him some credit.

If not for coaching decisions, the KINGS should be 2-2 right now.
 
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DA Fox is a great talent. He keeps getting better. Philosophically, I would like to see him focus more on assists if that is possible. He is a great scorer and can break down the defense, but it would help in the win column to look for team mates more.

Even when the Kings are playing well, like yesterday against NOLA, the KIngs give up way too many uncontested layups. Holmes and Len both have some inside presence. With Zion around, it draws the attention of the 5s and opens things up inside for other players. Maybe that is what happened yesterday. The Kings play harder and meaner than the milquetoast toast teams they have had in the past. But they still need to put some meanness in the water supply to get to the next level. Without changing the roster at all, they can win more games with better attention on team defense and defensive rebounding.
 
DA Fox is a great talent. He keeps getting better. Philosophically, I would like to see him focus more on assists if that is possible. He is a great scorer and can break down the defense, but it would help in the win column to look for team mates more.

Even when the Kings are playing well, like yesterday against NOLA, the KIngs give up way too many uncontested layups. Holmes and Len both have some inside presence. With Zion around, it draws the attention of the 5s and opens things up inside for other players. Maybe that is what happened yesterday. The Kings play harder and meaner than the milquetoast toast teams they have had in the past. But they still need to put some meanness in the water supply to get to the next level. Without changing the roster at all, they can win more games with better attention on team defense and defensive rebounding.
Holmes hasn't looked the same since the bubble games have started. Defense hasn't been nearly as good as it was during the regular season. Although his defense last night was the only thing that slowed Zion down. We knew Zion was going to roast Bjelica before the game even began. Hopefully it's just rust but I haven't been particularly impressed with any of our centers so far during this 4 game stretch.
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
Keep Fox, rebuild.

He's not good enough to lead us out of the lotto. But he's absolutely good enough to be a key piece with another star, which I suppose was the plan with Bagley, but I'm not sure he'll ever be healthy.

Barnes, Buddy, and Bogi are the kind of guys who keep you a middling team forever. Each one is capable of putting up a pretty 20 points from time to time, but none really play like winners. Barnes is Mr. Invisible and neither Buddy nor Bogi give the team anything when their shooting is off.

I dig Holmes and Baze, but those are the kind of roleplayers you add to a team AFTER you set up a playoff caliber core. It's funny that Vlade can sniff out players like that, but totally craps the bed when judging talent in the draft or when handing out big FA contacts (some might add coaching to this list). Barnes and Buddy have pretty regrettable deals.

If we rebuild, it starts with Fox and a new GM.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
We don't have beal though we've got buddy.
Bingo!!!!! Is there anyone on this forum that wouldn't trade Buddy for Beal straight up?. The Wiz wouldn't, but I certainly would. Beal is a complete player and Buddy isn't. Buddy is a one note samba, and if you ask him to do more than that, your asking for trouble. This isn't a matter of whether we have talent or not, it's a matter of how you use that talent. And that's on the coach. What was the difference in this last game? Fox had a good game. Not as great as his first game, but still, no complaints. Bogi had a good game, but once again, Buddy wasn't very good. However, this time around Walton decided to pull Buddy and start calling Barnes number.

Wa La! Barnes did what he does and the Kings were off and running. It's as though one of Walton's assistants whispered in his ear, hey, why don't we run some plays for Barnes. I know there are some on this forum that think I hate Buddy. Not true, but I do think his overall ability is overrated. He's a very good catch and shoot player. But not quite as good off the dribble as in catch and shoot. He's not a good passer and he gets very careless with his handle at times, and unfortunately, those times tend to be at a crucial point of the game. I would take Joe Harris over Buddy 10 times out of 10. And Harris is making 7 mil a year.

Someone in one of these posts stated that both Buddy and Bogi needed someone to create shots for them. Really? I sometimes wonder if some of you even watch the games. Buddy is better as a catch and shoot player, and therefore, he needs someone to get him the ball in that situation. Bogdanovic on the other hand, is an excellent ball handler and passer whose like a 2nd PG on the floor with Fox. He can run the offense at times allowing Fox to play off the ball. He needs no one to set him up.

Someone asked if there's ever been a PG that was successful that couldn't shoot the three well. First, if applied to Fox, we have to assume that he'll never be a good, or at least a respected 3 pt shooter. I personally, am not willing to make that assessment at this point. It took Jason Kidd 13 years at age 31 to become a good 3pt shooter. However I think everyone will agree that he was a pretty good PG, prior to, and after he became efficient at shooting the three.

Of all the positions on the floor, PG is the most difficult and comes with the most responsibility. Steve Nash didn't become the Steve Nash we all remember until his 5th year in the league. Like Curry, he could always shoot the ball, but the rest of his game was lacking. It took one of the best PG's of all time, John Stockton, 4 years to hone his game and become a star. It took Rod Strictland 4 years. Isaiah Thomas never shot the three well averaging 29% for his career, but he's in the HOF. Our own Kevin Johnson was a career 30.5% three point shooter. How about Kyle Lowery who took 4 years to look anything like the player we see today, and who shot under 30% from the three his first 3 years in the league.

So be careful who you want to trade. Successful franchises are usually methodically patient. Unsuccessful franchises are usually plagued with constant turnover of players, coaches and GM's. Fitting the right pieces together is never a slam dunk. It's one thing to know who you think is the perfect fit for your team. It's quite another thing to acquire that player. Petrie once said, "You know when you have team chemistry, and when it's gone, you have no idea how to get it back". In other words, it's not an exact science and no matter how much work you put into it, there's always an element of luck.

There are times when I think this franchise is cursed. That there's some truth to that Indian burial ground rumor. We finally get the 1st pick in the draft and draft Pervis Ellison, who immediately has foot problems, and is traded the following year. We draft Lionel Simmons, who finishes 2nd in ROY voting to Derrick Coleman, but then blows out his knee's. We draft Ricky Berry, who looks like a future all star, and he commits suicide in the off season. Just a few examples out of many. "Successful people are those who keep they're heads while everyone about them is losing theirs". A bastardized quote from the French revolution, but it can be applied to many situations.

It's one thing to believe that the team needs some changes. We have some pieces that don't fit together well, or that should be coming off the bench instead of starting. I have no argument with that approach. But it's quite another to think that we should blow up the entire team and start from scratch. Especially when it appears that some of you underestimate the capabilities of some of our players, and overestimate others. Changes need to be well thought out. Change for the sake of change usually results in disaster.

Change should be based on what you see, not what you want to see, or hoped to see. Don't paint Bagley as a failure because he's not Doncic and that's the player you wanted. We would likely be a different team with him on the floor, and probably a better team. Pure speculation on my part. But as far as Bagley is concerned, speculation is all we have except for his first year when he played in 62 games. So lets make a comparison.

Cousins: 1st yr - 28 mpg - 14.1 ppg - 43.0% fgp - 16.7% 3pp - 8.6 rpg - 0.8 bpg - 1 stl's per game
Bagley: 1st yr - 25 mpg - 14.9 ppg - 50.4% fgp - 31.3% 3pp - 7.6 rpg - 1.0 bpg - 0.5 stl's per game

I think we can agree that they're different kind of players, but the results are similar. Cousins was a beloved player on this forum and I think we can agree he turned out better than OK. We were patient with Cousins, and Bagley deserves the same. Vlade envisioned a team with Fox and Bagley running the floor together, and so far, that hasn't happened. So we don't know how it will turn out in the long term, but it worked well for Stockton and Malone. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

My point is, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Bagley's injuries aren't Vlade's fault. No one has a crystal ball for injuries. They're not Bagley's fault either. I get the frustration. I'm frustrated, and once again, that Indian burial ground vision appears before my eye's. But I think we should at least wait and see the results of Vlade's vision before passing judgement. None of Bagley's injuries are of the chronic variety, which is encouraging. Meaning that he should be back to full health for next season, and hopefully stay that way. So personally, I'm willing to wait and see how the team looks with a healthy Bagley and Fox on the floor together.

My starting lineup would be Fox at the Point, Bogie at SG, ? at SF, Barnes at PF, and Bagley at Center. That would bring Buddy, Holmes, Bjelica and Joseph off the bench. The bench needs another shooter like Beli to help take some of the pressure off Buddy. My hope would be that we fill the SF position in the off season. I'd like to include Bazemore in the 2nd unit, but I don't know if we have the cap space to resign him. Plus, if the Kings are looking at Jeffries the same way I'am, he looks a lot like Bazemore 2.0, which could make Bazemore expendable. Just the random thoughts of a Dr. Manhattan wanna be.... :p
 
Bingo!!!!! Is there anyone on this forum that wouldn't trade Buddy for Beal straight up?. The Wiz wouldn't, but I certainly would. Beal is a complete player and Buddy isn't. Buddy is a one note samba, and if you ask him to do more than that, your asking for trouble. This isn't a matter of whether we have talent or not, it's a matter of how you use that talent. And that's on the coach. What was the difference in this last game? Fox had a good game. Not as great as his first game, but still, no complaints. Bogi had a good game, but once again, Buddy wasn't very good. However, this time around Walton decided to pull Buddy and start calling Barnes number.

Wa La! Barnes did what he does and the Kings were off and running. It's as though one of Walton's assistants whispered in his ear, hey, why don't we run some plays for Barnes. I know there are some on this forum that think I hate Buddy. Not true, but I do think his overall ability is overrated. He's a very good catch and shoot player. But not quite as good off the dribble as in catch and shoot. He's not a good passer and he gets very careless with his handle at times, and unfortunately, those times tend to be at a crucial point of the game. I would take Joe Harris over Buddy 10 times out of 10. And Harris is making 7 mil a year.

Someone in one of these posts stated that both Buddy and Bogi needed someone to create shots for them. Really? I sometimes wonder if some of you even watch the games. Buddy is better as a catch and shoot player, and therefore, he needs someone to get him the ball in that situation. Bogdanovic on the other hand, is an excellent ball handler and passer whose like a 2nd PG on the floor with Fox. He can run the offense at times allowing Fox to play off the ball. He needs no one to set him up.

Someone asked if there's ever been a PG that was successful that couldn't shoot the three well. First, if applied to Fox, we have to assume that he'll never be a good, or at least a respected 3 pt shooter. I personally, am not willing to make that assessment at this point. It took Jason Kidd 13 years at age 31 to become a good 3pt shooter. However I think everyone will agree that he was a pretty good PG, prior to, and after he became efficient at shooting the three.

Of all the positions on the floor, PG is the most difficult and comes with the most responsibility. Steve Nash didn't become the Steve Nash we all remember until his 5th year in the league. Like Curry, he could always shoot the ball, but the rest of his game was lacking. It took one of the best PG's of all time, John Stockton, 4 years to hone his game and become a star. It took Rod Strictland 4 years. Isaiah Thomas never shot the three well averaging 29% for his career, but he's in the HOF. Our own Kevin Johnson was a career 30.5% three point shooter. How about Kyle Lowery who took 4 years to look anything like the player we see today, and who shot under 30% from the three his first 3 years in the league.

So be careful who you want to trade. Successful franchises are usually methodically patient. Unsuccessful franchises are usually plagued with constant turnover of players, coaches and GM's. Fitting the right pieces together is never a slam dunk. It's one thing to know who you think is the perfect fit for your team. It's quite another thing to acquire that player. Petrie once said, "You know when you have team chemistry, and when it's gone, you have no idea how to get it back". In other words, it's not an exact science and no matter how much work you put into it, there's always an element of luck.

There are times when I think this franchise is cursed. That there's some truth to that Indian burial ground rumor. We finally get the 1st pick in the draft and draft Pervis Ellison, who immediately has foot problems, and is traded the following year. We draft Lionel Simmons, who finishes 2nd in ROY voting to Derrick Coleman, but then blows out his knee's. We draft Ricky Berry, who looks like a future all star, and he commits suicide in the off season. Just a few examples out of many. "Successful people are those who keep they're heads while everyone about them is losing theirs". A bastardized quote from the French revolution, but it can be applied to many situations.

It's one thing to believe that the team needs some changes. We have some pieces that don't fit together well, or that should be coming off the bench instead of starting. I have no argument with that approach. But it's quite another to think that we should blow up the entire team and start from scratch. Especially when it appears that some of you underestimate the capabilities of some of our players, and overestimate others. Changes need to be well thought out. Change for the sake of change usually results in disaster.

Change should be based on what you see, not what you want to see, or hoped to see. Don't paint Bagley as a failure because he's not Doncic and that's the player you wanted. We would likely be a different team with him on the floor, and probably a better team. Pure speculation on my part. But as far as Bagley is concerned, speculation is all we have except for his first year when he played in 62 games. So lets make a comparison.

Cousins: 1st yr - 28 mpg - 14.1 ppg - 43.0% fgp - 16.7% 3pp - 8.6 rpg - 0.8 bpg - 1 stl's per game
Bagley: 1st yr - 25 mpg - 14.9 ppg - 50.4% fgp - 31.3% 3pp - 7.6 rpg - 1.0 bpg - 0.5 stl's per game

I think we can agree that they're different kind of players, but the results are similar. Cousins was a beloved player on this forum and I think we can agree he turned out better than OK. We were patient with Cousins, and Bagley deserves the same. Vlade envisioned a team with Fox and Bagley running the floor together, and so far, that hasn't happened. So we don't know how it will turn out in the long term, but it worked well for Stockton and Malone. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

My point is, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Bagley's injuries aren't Vlade's fault. No one has a crystal ball for injuries. They're not Bagley's fault either. I get the frustration. I'm frustrated, and once again, that Indian burial ground vision appears before my eye's. But I think we should at least wait and see the results of Vlade's vision before passing judgement. None of Bagley's injuries are of the chronic variety, which is encouraging. Meaning that he should be back to full health for next season, and hopefully stay that way. So personally, I'm willing to wait and see how the team looks with a healthy Bagley and Fox on the floor together.

My starting lineup would be Fox at the Point, Bogie at SG, ? at SF, Barnes at PF, and Bagley at Center. That would bring Buddy, Holmes, Bjelica and Joseph off the bench. The bench needs another shooter like Beli to help take some of the pressure off Buddy. My hope would be that we fill the SF position in the off season. I'd like to include Bazemore in the 2nd unit, but I don't know if we have the cap space to resign him. Plus, if the Kings are looking at Jeffries the same way I'am, he looks a lot like Bazemore 2.0, which could make Bazemore expendable. Just the random thoughts of a Dr. Manhattan wanna be.... :p
There's lots of wisdom in this post. But, if you are correct about the best long-term starting lineup for this team, then they should look to trade Buddy this offseason, ideally for a SF/PF type to fill the hole in the starting lineup you identify. Having a sharpshooter making over $20 million to come off the bench is a luxury this team cannot afford, especially with so many other weaknesses.
 
There's lots of wisdom in this post. But, if you are correct about the best long-term starting lineup for this team, then they should look to trade Buddy this offseason, ideally for a SF/PF type to fill the hole in the starting lineup you identify. Having a sharpshooter making over $20 million to come off the bench is a luxury this team cannot afford, especially with so many other weaknesses.
Having a sharpshooter making 20 million playing backup PG likely means your problems go far, far beyond that player. The chicken spawned the egg in this scenario. Sick of omelettes? Deal with the chicken otherwise eat up.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
If you really were done with it all, you wouldn't be coming here to post this
Well, I’m still here posting. I’m also greatly enjoying the sinking ship. I’ve watched exactly one quarter of the restart and that was the game they lost by 30 to whoever because I thought it was funny. I’m pretty sure I’m done with it.

This site is like a habit at this point after all the years and years. It’s just a go-to when I start zoning out and mindlessly tapping on my phone.
 
Bingo!!!!! Is there anyone on this forum that wouldn't trade Buddy for Beal straight up?. The Wiz wouldn't, but I certainly would. Beal is a complete player and Buddy isn't. Buddy is a one note samba, and if you ask him to do more than that, your asking for trouble. This isn't a matter of whether we have talent or not, it's a matter of how you use that talent. And that's on the coach. What was the difference in this last game? Fox had a good game. Not as great as his first game, but still, no complaints. Bogi had a good game, but once again, Buddy wasn't very good. However, this time around Walton decided to pull Buddy and start calling Barnes number.

Wa La! Barnes did what he does and the Kings were off and running. It's as though one of Walton's assistants whispered in his ear, hey, why don't we run some plays for Barnes. I know there are some on this forum that think I hate Buddy. Not true, but I do think his overall ability is overrated. He's a very good catch and shoot player. But not quite as good off the dribble as in catch and shoot. He's not a good passer and he gets very careless with his handle at times, and unfortunately, those times tend to be at a crucial point of the game. I would take Joe Harris over Buddy 10 times out of 10. And Harris is making 7 mil a year.

Someone in one of these posts stated that both Buddy and Bogi needed someone to create shots for them. Really? I sometimes wonder if some of you even watch the games. Buddy is better as a catch and shoot player, and therefore, he needs someone to get him the ball in that situation. Bogdanovic on the other hand, is an excellent ball handler and passer whose like a 2nd PG on the floor with Fox. He can run the offense at times allowing Fox to play off the ball. He needs no one to set him up.

Someone asked if there's ever been a PG that was successful that couldn't shoot the three well. First, if applied to Fox, we have to assume that he'll never be a good, or at least a respected 3 pt shooter. I personally, am not willing to make that assessment at this point. It took Jason Kidd 13 years at age 31 to become a good 3pt shooter. However I think everyone will agree that he was a pretty good PG, prior to, and after he became efficient at shooting the three.

Of all the positions on the floor, PG is the most difficult and comes with the most responsibility. Steve Nash didn't become the Steve Nash we all remember until his 5th year in the league. Like Curry, he could always shoot the ball, but the rest of his game was lacking. It took one of the best PG's of all time, John Stockton, 4 years to hone his game and become a star. It took Rod Strictland 4 years. Isaiah Thomas never shot the three well averaging 29% for his career, but he's in the HOF. Our own Kevin Johnson was a career 30.5% three point shooter. How about Kyle Lowery who took 4 years to look anything like the player we see today, and who shot under 30% from the three his first 3 years in the league.

So be careful who you want to trade. Successful franchises are usually methodically patient. Unsuccessful franchises are usually plagued with constant turnover of players, coaches and GM's. Fitting the right pieces together is never a slam dunk. It's one thing to know who you think is the perfect fit for your team. It's quite another thing to acquire that player. Petrie once said, "You know when you have team chemistry, and when it's gone, you have no idea how to get it back". In other words, it's not an exact science and no matter how much work you put into it, there's always an element of luck.

There are times when I think this franchise is cursed. That there's some truth to that Indian burial ground rumor. We finally get the 1st pick in the draft and draft Pervis Ellison, who immediately has foot problems, and is traded the following year. We draft Lionel Simmons, who finishes 2nd in ROY voting to Derrick Coleman, but then blows out his knee's. We draft Ricky Berry, who looks like a future all star, and he commits suicide in the off season. Just a few examples out of many. "Successful people are those who keep they're heads while everyone about them is losing theirs". A bastardized quote from the French revolution, but it can be applied to many situations.

It's one thing to believe that the team needs some changes. We have some pieces that don't fit together well, or that should be coming off the bench instead of starting. I have no argument with that approach. But it's quite another to think that we should blow up the entire team and start from scratch. Especially when it appears that some of you underestimate the capabilities of some of our players, and overestimate others. Changes need to be well thought out. Change for the sake of change usually results in disaster.

Change should be based on what you see, not what you want to see, or hoped to see. Don't paint Bagley as a failure because he's not Doncic and that's the player you wanted. We would likely be a different team with him on the floor, and probably a better team. Pure speculation on my part. But as far as Bagley is concerned, speculation is all we have except for his first year when he played in 62 games. So lets make a comparison.

Cousins: 1st yr - 28 mpg - 14.1 ppg - 43.0% fgp - 16.7% 3pp - 8.6 rpg - 0.8 bpg - 1 stl's per game
Bagley: 1st yr - 25 mpg - 14.9 ppg - 50.4% fgp - 31.3% 3pp - 7.6 rpg - 1.0 bpg - 0.5 stl's per game

I think we can agree that they're different kind of players, but the results are similar. Cousins was a beloved player on this forum and I think we can agree he turned out better than OK. We were patient with Cousins, and Bagley deserves the same. Vlade envisioned a team with Fox and Bagley running the floor together, and so far, that hasn't happened. So we don't know how it will turn out in the long term, but it worked well for Stockton and Malone. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

My point is, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Bagley's injuries aren't Vlade's fault. No one has a crystal ball for injuries. They're not Bagley's fault either. I get the frustration. I'm frustrated, and once again, that Indian burial ground vision appears before my eye's. But I think we should at least wait and see the results of Vlade's vision before passing judgement. None of Bagley's injuries are of the chronic variety, which is encouraging. Meaning that he should be back to full health for next season, and hopefully stay that way. So personally, I'm willing to wait and see how the team looks with a healthy Bagley and Fox on the floor together.

My starting lineup would be Fox at the Point, Bogie at SG, ? at SF, Barnes at PF, and Bagley at Center. That would bring Buddy, Holmes, Bjelica and Joseph off the bench. The bench needs another shooter like Beli to help take some of the pressure off Buddy. My hope would be that we fill the SF position in the off season. I'd like to include Bazemore in the 2nd unit, but I don't know if we have the cap space to resign him. Plus, if the Kings are looking at Jeffries the same way I'am, he looks a lot like Bazemore 2.0, which could make Bazemore expendable. Just the random thoughts of a Dr. Manhattan wanna be.... :p
we both want Vassell to be that guy. The real question is what to do with Fox this off season. He will want a max extension but he isn’t really worth it as a lead guard who is shoot first and sketchy on defense.
 
The thing that disappoints me the most in hindsight is that Ronald Burkle does not own the Kings. He made an offer to save the KIngs for Sacramento, however, a conflict of interest as a part-owner of Relativity Sport forced him to drop out.

Burkle co-owns the NHL Pittsburgh Penguins and they won the Stanley Cup a total of 5 times in 1991, 1992, 2009, 2016 and 2017. With this history of success with a pro sports franchise I think the Kings would be in a better place with Burkle as an owner.

Vivek was great to save the KIngs for Sacramento but lacks the experience to be a winner in the NBA IMO. His choices for GM and Coach have not worked out. He had two good Coaches in Malone and Joerger.

He allowed an inexperienced GM Pete D'Allessandro to fire Malone prematurely. Pete D. became known as the "Gerbil" to Kings Fans.

Vlade was allowed to Fire Joerger after the KIngs best season since 2006. Joerger had a Conflict with Kings assistant gm Brandon Williams. Williams was said to have stabbed Joerger in the back repeatedly. Also Williams was the primary force behind the Kings drafting Marvin Bagley over Luka Doncic.

Vlade when hired as KIngs GM offered to step down in two seasons if the KIngs were not in a better place. While KIngs Fans love Vlade as a former player it is time for him to step down as KIngs GM.
 
At this point I’m ready to give reke a 3rd run in sac when he’s done with his suspension. We need another playmaker and he looks like he’s in good shape from his workouts since being banned for the year