The State of the Kings

Time to rebuild?


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Sam Amick talks about the state of the Kings... (Kings talk around 6:00 minute mark)


Thanks for sharing. I do appreciate Sam Amick's measured approach and reasoning, which does not seem to impede his ability to be critical. The takeaway - that we may have another year with Luke as coach (and all else) - is a bit disheartening. Coming to terms with it now - and looking for some optimism - Luke has a season to coach for his job and show something. More opportunity than he deserves for me but perhaps - like an undergrad student with an assessment due - perhaps he needs the pressure. Player movement - be it the removal of Buddy or Bogdan will give clarity to the squad. And ... well ... not much else ... but games to be played.
 
Sam Amick talks about the state of the Kings... (Kings talk around 6:00 minute mark)


I agree with CD. I think Vlade will be re-assigned to another FO position and a new GM will be named.

Replacing a GM is a lot cheaper than replacing a coach. NOT replacing a GM and the fans having widespread apathy for next season is going to cost the Kings more money than making a move to replace the GM.

Replacing a GM and giving the fans hope for a better tomorrow will more than make up for the lost salary from replacing Vlade.

Some shrewd moves can be made in the Buddy, Bogdan and Giles situation, I'm just don't think Vlade will have the foresight to make those moves to improve the Kings.

Also, as another plus of getting a new GM, I think it may help us retain Giles. Giles would not have to re-sign with the man who didn't pick up his option. If the Kings give Giles a 2 year deal, with a player option for year 2, then Giles keeps his Bird Rights, which is our biggest advantage in trying to re-sign him.
 
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I agree with CD. I think Vlade will be re-assigned to another FO position and a new GM will be named.

Replacing a GM is a lot cheaper than replacing a coach. NOT replacing a GM and the fans having widespread apathy for next season is going to cost the Kings more money than making a move to replace the GM.

Replacing a GM and giving the fans hope for a better tomorrow will more than make up for the lost salary from replacing Vlade.

Some shrewd moves can be made in the Buddy, Bogdan and Giles situation, I'm just don't think Vlade will have the foresight to make those moves to improve the Kings.

Also, as another plus of getting a new GM, I think it may help us retain Giles. Giles would not have to re-sign with the man who didn't pick up his option. If the Kings give Giles a 2 year deal, with a player option for year 2, then Giles keeps his Bird Rights, which is our biggest advantage in trying to re-sign him.
Came here to post this exact same thing. Fans that stuck with this team through all the losing are not going to come back if they walk away. Without that glimmer of hope that people can at least fool themselves into believing might get this team to turn the corner, the Kings will lose fans permanently.
 
I agree with CD. I think Vlade will be re-assigned to another FO position and a new GM will be named.

Replacing a GM is a lot cheaper than replacing a coach. NOT replacing a GM and the fans having widespread apathy for next season is going to cost the Kings more money than making a move to replace the GM.

Replacing a GM and giving the fans hope for a better tomorrow will more than make up for the lost salary from replacing Vlade.

Some shrewd moves can be made in the Buddy, Bogdan and Giles situation, I'm just don't think Vlade will have the foresight to make those moves to improve the Kings.

Also, as another plus of getting a new GM, I think it may help us retain Giles. Giles would not have to re-sign with the man who didn't pick up his option. If the Kings give Giles a 2 year deal, with a player option for year 2, then Giles keeps his Bird Rights, which is our biggest advantage in trying to re-sign him.
agree with your post. The Vlade tenure has run its course and its time to move on. There’s no point in rehashing all his moves that haven’t worked out, he’s a quality bloke otherwise but this team and fan base needs a better decision maker.
 
agree with your post. The Vlade tenure has run its course and its time to move on. There’s no point in rehashing all his moves that haven’t worked out, he’s a quality bloke otherwise but this team and fan base needs a better decision maker.
Reassigning Vlade is a possibility, but I just don't see them firing him. The NBA is bleeding and will be bleeding in 2021.

That said, assuming Vlade remains, here's what he's going to do:

1. In the draft, he'll pick for fit and if given a choice between a big or a small, he'll pick a big.
2. Trade one or two of his second round picks for future second round pics.
3. Sign a bunch of vets.
4. Trade away one or two of those vets at the trade deadline, because they're either over the hill (Zbo), don't fit (Dedmon), don't want to be here (George Hill), or hanging on for dear life (Carter, Tuff Juice...)

How do I know? Dude's been doing the same thing since he's been here.
 
Reassigning Vlade is a possibility, but I just don't see them firing him. The NBA is bleeding and will be bleeding in 2021.

That said, assuming Vlade remains, here's what he's going to do:

1. In the draft, he'll pick for fit and if given a choice between a big or a small, he'll pick a big.
2. Trade one or two of his second round picks for future second round pics.
3. Sign a bunch of vets.
4. Trade away one or two of those vets at the trade deadline, because they're either over the hill (Zbo), don't fit (Dedmon), don't want to be here (George Hill), or hanging on for dear life (Carter, Tuff Juice...)

How do I know? Dude's been doing the same thing since he's been here.
You're absolutely right.

Rinse. Wash. Repeat.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Insanity. That's exactly where were at. Eventually it's gotta work though. Right? Right? If we do it enough times?

We're so screwed.
 
Team needs to be retooled. Keep Fox. Trade everyone else and rebuild. These players simply arent good enough.
I genuinely like this group of players we have so it kind of bums me out to see them fail the way they have. I mean I'm used to failure as a Kings fan, but seeing guys like Bogie, Bjelica, Hield, Giles, Fox, be nothing but professional and rep Sacramento well (for the most part) and still come up so short sucks. There's nothing more I want then for these guys to succeed and Vlade to be the one to have assembled it, but there shouldn't be any doubt anymore that these guys just don't have what it takes to compete for the playoffs now or long term.
 
No, I don't.
I only see a lot of fans grumbling on online fora. I see a very mild and even outright defense of the FO from most local media outlets and mainly indifference from the national media.
If this would happen in many other markets I would see the torches. Here it is just people raising their lighters in the dark and swooning to the tune of "I'm just happy we still have a team."
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
No, I don't.
I only see a lot of fans grumbling on online fora. I see a very mild and even outright defense of the FO from most local media outlets and mainly indifference from the national media.
If this would happen in many other markets I would see the torches. Here it is just people raising their lighters in the dark and swooning to the tune of "I'm just happy we still have a team."
Well, the national media have been indifferent to the small-market Kings since the beginning of time, there's no shocker there. The national media are no more interested in the duration of Vlade's tenure here than they are in the annual trends in the yield of spring wheat per acre in North Dakota. Frankly, the national NBA media are happy that Doncic ended up in Dallas, because that means they don't have to worry about traveling to "podunk Cowtown Sac" anytime soon to cover him.

But if you're basing your impression of fan reaction on KingsFans.com, realize that as much Vlade-hate as you see here, we are an outlier in the mild direction because the of the site's preference for minimal aggressive confrontation and some active mods that enforce such. My understanding is that Sactown Royalty (or whatever it is now) and reddit are far, far more interested in the whole idea of "bring me the head of Vlade Divac on a pike". For crying out loud, Carmichael Dave is basically calling for the head of Vlade Divac on a pike, and when you've lost Carmichael Dave, you've lost the city. Point being, the local attitude towards team ownership is about the second worst I have seen it, behind only the time when it became evident that the Maloofs were actively looking to move the team out of town. At no other time has the fanbase at large been as upset as it is right now. But you might have to be on the continent to recognize it.
 
I genuinely like this group of players we have so it kind of bums me out to see them fail the way they have. I mean I'm used to failure as a Kings fan, but seeing guys like Bogie, Bjelica, Hield, Giles, Fox, be nothing but professional and rep Sacramento well (for the most part) and still come up so short sucks. There's nothing more I want then for these guys to succeed and Vlade to be the one to have assembled it, but there shouldn't be any doubt anymore that these guys just don't have what it takes to compete for the playoffs now or long term.
Yep that's the saddest part about it. A lot of us around here stressed that it's difficult to win games when you acquire players that need to play next to other specific types of players to be able to succeed. Fox, Barnes and to a lesser extent, Bogie, can play with anyone. Fox is great. Barnes is merely average on a large salary and Bogie is very inconsistent. Hield needs to be in a specific system. Bjelica is a solid vet but will never get us over the hump and Giles may never even be average. Throw in Bagley who needs to be surrounded by defenders to succeed.

What you wind up with is an impossible task because you have 12 pieces to a puzzle but no way to assemble them to look like a cohesive unit. You could assemble them to look close enough to something that resembles success but that would require a very very good coach who knows how to do that and how to play to his players strengths and minimize their weaknesses. We obviously don't have that and even if we did, we're probably looking at the 8th seed as the highest standing we could get anyway.

Replace Cousins with Fox and we're in the exact same position again. Only difference is we like the majority of the players on the squad right now.
 
I agree with CD. I think Vlade will be re-assigned to another FO position and a new GM will be named.

Replacing a GM is a lot cheaper than replacing a coach. NOT replacing a GM and the fans having widespread apathy for next season is going to cost the Kings more money than making a move to replace the GM.

Replacing a GM and giving the fans hope for a better tomorrow will more than make up for the lost salary from replacing Vlade.

Some shrewd moves can be made in the Buddy, Bogdan and Giles situation, I'm just don't think Vlade will have the foresight to make those moves to improve the Kings.

Also, as another plus of getting a new GM, I think it may help us retain Giles. Giles would not have to re-sign with the man who didn't pick up his option. If the Kings give Giles a 2 year deal, with a player option for year 2, then Giles keeps his Bird Rights, which is our biggest advantage in trying to re-sign him.
Vlade wasnt the GM until this year when they didnt hire a replacement. He had Bratz, Perry, Williams. Vlade just had the final say on approving deals.
 
My first sentence was: "I only see a lot of fans grumbling on online fora."

And that last sentence of your reply; why so condescending? Go 'Murica!?
I think something worse than pitchforks and torches is happening, apathy is setting in and people have simply stopped caring much. But I also am a couple thousand miles away and could be reading things wrong.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
And that last sentence of your reply; why so condescending? Go 'Murica!?
Not remotely. Just making the point that someone halfway across the world (OK, more like 1/3 of the way across the world) probably isn't in the same position to see the full picture as those of us who are local.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
I think something worse than pitchforks and torches is happening, apathy is setting in and people have simply stopped caring much. But I also am a couple thousand miles away and could be reading things wrong.
Example: My daughter used to be a rabid Kings fan. She would come down to Baja for her vacations, and we would drive all over Baja in the quest of finding every La Playa and Palapa bar in Baja. I once thought of writing a book on who had the best Cocktail De Camaron in all of Baja. During this time, she kept track of when every Kings game was being played, and had me driving around every town we were in to somehow find a feed showing the game. I think I went up and down every street in La Paz one night. One night at the Bahia De Los Angeles we decided to give up and just find a place to stay for the night.

We were tired and stumbled upon this rustic place right on the water (Sea of Cortez). The office was upstairs and when we walked through the door, behold, there was the Kings game on a big screen TV being watched by about 30 rabid Kings fans. God had smiled upon us... I've been back to that place many times since and have a lot of stories I could tell. But that's for another time. My point is, that now my daughter couldn't tell you who is on the team, and could care less. She reached a point where she told me that she just didn't care anymore.

So yes, I'm agreeing with you. Apathy is hard to come back from. At least when you feel anger, it means you still care. You wouldn't feel anger if you didn't. But apathy means the lack of feelings. No passion or anger, just indifference.
 
Yep that's the saddest part about it. A lot of us around here stressed that it's difficult to win games when you acquire players that need to play next to other specific types of players to be able to succeed. Fox, Barnes and to a lesser extent, Bogie, can play with anyone. Fox is great. Barnes is merely average on a large salary and Bogie is very inconsistent. Hield needs to be in a specific system. Bjelica is a solid vet but will never get us over the hump and Giles may never even be average. Throw in Bagley who needs to be surrounded by defenders to succeed.

What you wind up with is an impossible task because you have 12 pieces to a puzzle but no way to assemble them to look like a cohesive unit. You could assemble them to look close enough to something that resembles success but that would require a very very good coach who knows how to do that and how to play to his players strengths and minimize their weaknesses. We obviously don't have that and even if we did, we're probably looking at the 8th seed as the highest standing we could get anyway.

Replace Cousins with Fox and we're in the exact same position again. Only difference is we like the majority of the players on the squad right now.
It's upsetting that that's true because everyone on our team is quite talented. Everyone of the guys in our rotation except Giles probably get good minutes on any other team. But as you alluded to, with the amount of weaknesses this team has, it requires everyone to be completely on their games for us to win, and that happens less frequently than it occurs.

Next season this team won't be treated as an up and coming team anymore. There won't be any moral victories. The young and exciting label will be gone. Fox and Giles (if he's here) will be in the 4th season. Hield will be in his 5th and will be 28 years old. Bogie will be 28. Bagley, even though he hasn't played will be going into his 3rd. Barnes will be 29. This is a team that will be expected to produce wins and compete. If we don't think they can do that we need to stop wasting everyones time and blow it up.
 
Came here to post this exact same thing. Fans that stuck with this team through all the losing are not going to come back if they walk away. Without that glimmer of hope that people can at least fool themselves into believing might get this team to turn the corner, the Kings will lose fans permanently.
I grew up in the Sacramento area. Was a fan when they moved in 1985. Haven't lived in Sacramento for 22 years, currently live in Seattle, but have remained a dedicated fan. Have lived and died with the team for 35 years. I hate to say it but with the pandemic, I got used to not thinking about the Kings. I read books, stopped visiting this site much, enjoyed other things with my family, etc. I've watched a couple of the bubble games, but once it was clear they were out of it I lost all interest. I hear people talking in this thread about not being negative, but at this point I think I"m just apathetic. If the NBA brought an expansion team to Seattle, I really think I'd probably jump ship at this point with a fresh start. Since we last made the playoffs, there have been teams that have gone two or three cycles of rebuilds. I think I've had enough.
 
I grew up in the Sacramento area. Was a fan when they moved in 1985. Haven't lived in Sacramento for 22 years, currently live in Seattle, but have remained a dedicated fan. Have lived and died with the team for 35 years. I hate to say it but with the pandemic, I got used to not thinking about the Kings. I read books, stopped visiting this site much, enjoyed other things with my family, etc. I've watched a couple of the bubble games, but once it was clear they were out of it I lost all interest. I hear people talking in this thread about not being negative, but at this point I think I"m just apathetic. If the NBA brought an expansion team to Seattle, I really think I'd probably jump ship at this point with a fresh start. Since we last made the playoffs, there have been teams that have gone two or three cycles of rebuilds. I think I've had enough.
Yeah it'll be interesting to see the support the team gets next year if we still are pretty bad, and if arenas eventually allow fans back. Fans dealt with the bad Kevin Martin-Beno Udrih-Jason Thompson teams of the mid to late 2000's because we were still riding high on that great early 2000's era. We were ok with the bad teams of the early to mid 2010's because we were just happy to keep the team here in Sacramento. We were ok not being competitive last season and the one before because we were finally rebuilding and it seemed like a completely new, drama free era for the Kings. The feeling I get now from Kings fans is different than the feeling I got during our other bad years. Fans are giving up on this team in droves and everyone just seems to be done with them. I think our arena attendance and viewership plummets next season.
 
To post a quick alternative to the 'lost interest' post. I have every reason to be apathetic about the Kings. I live in Melbourne and the time difference does not make it easy to watch games. When I do, games take forever compared to other sports and the Kings usually give up 120 points and lose. More generally, I have a busy job that I like, a good relationship, an unwell family member, and several other moving parts in my life that still move despite a lock down. But I'm still happy to follow the Kings. I like their current players and am interested to see how their careers go. Things are tough now but that will change. Leeds United were just promoted to the premier league after 16 years on the out. They had a few promotion near misses before finally making it in this year. When I started following basketball, teams like Golden State and the Clippers were consistently awful. One is now on the other end of a dynasty like run and the other started the year as possible title favourites. Maybe watching the team learn and develop, and waiting to see how they do it, or what it is that finally clicks, is something I am interested in.

I'm not trying to say anyone is in the wrong for being disgruntled. It has been more than a decade since the Kings put a playoff quality product on the floor, instead showing a preference for drama and missteps. But I think it's also nice to post something like 'it is OK to still care, still be invested.'
 
Last night's minutes allocations is a perfect example of why this franchise is never heading anywhere; there's 0 excuse to be playing Barnes, Bjelica, Bogdan and CoJo the minutes they got. It's just a sorry attempt by Walton to inflate his team record and save his job.

We don't have a ton of young guys, but we certainly have enough that could use some real game experience and we can get a closer look at without any pressure on them to perform. This team is about to get really expensive, so hitting on a Jeffries or a Guy/James contract to become a role player for you becomes really important when building out your roster.

You owe Harrison Barnes another 60 mil over the next 3 years. Bjelica is a major rotation piece next year if we want to try and compete. Bogdan is likely heading towards a 60+mil extension. We already know who CoJo is as a player and he's a "major rotation" piece based on the salary we paid him. What's the point? Why are we risking injury to these guys who are going to be major core rotation pieces for us next year?
 
To post a quick alternative to the 'lost interest' post. I have every reason to be apathetic about the Kings. I live in Melbourne and the time difference does not make it easy to watch games. When I do, games take forever compared to other sports and the Kings usually give up 120 points and lose. More generally, I have a busy job that I like, a good relationship, an unwell family member, and several other moving parts in my life that still move despite a lock down. But I'm still happy to follow the Kings. I like their current players and am interested to see how their careers go. Things are tough now but that will change. Leeds United were just promoted to the premier league after 16 years on the out. They had a few promotion near misses before finally making it in this year. When I started following basketball, teams like Golden State and the Clippers were consistently awful. One is now on the other end of a dynasty like run and the other started the year as possible title favourites. Maybe watching the team learn and develop, and waiting to see how they do it, or what it is that finally clicks, is something I am interested in.

I'm not trying to say anyone is in the wrong for being disgruntled. It has been more than a decade since the Kings put a playoff quality product on the floor, instead showing a preference for drama and missteps. But I think it's also nice to post something like 'it is OK to still care, still be invested.'
It is still okay to care and still be invested. I don't think many if any are saying that. Many are simply saying they are reaching the end. Look at the posts here that typically were of the fair natured variety in comparison to other sites. Very little hope expressed even amongst the die-hard optimist. Even the die-hard pessimist gives a sense of resignation. This isn't politics, this isn't healthy when it's hard to tell the extremes from each other.
 
Last night's minutes allocations is a perfect example of why this franchise is never heading anywhere; there's 0 excuse to be playing Barnes, Bjelica, Bogdan and CoJo the minutes they got. It's just a sorry attempt by Walton to inflate his team record and save his job.

We don't have a ton of young guys, but we certainly have enough that could use some real game experience and we can get a closer look at without any pressure on them to perform. This team is about to get really expensive, so hitting on a Jeffries or a Guy/James contract to become a role player for you becomes really important when building out your roster.

You owe Harrison Barnes another 60 mil over the next 3 years. Bjelica is a major rotation piece next year if we want to try and compete. Bogdan is likely heading towards a 60+mil extension. We already know who CoJo is as a player and he's a "major rotation" piece based on the salary we paid him. What's the point? Why are we risking injury to these guys who are going to be major core rotation pieces for us next year?
You answered your own question. It's Luke inflating the team's record. A 1-7 bubble record would have looked bad. 3-5 looks much more promising.

Go Kings :rolleyes:
 
Example: My daughter used to be a rabid Kings fan. She would come down to Baja for her vacations, and we would drive all over Baja in the quest of finding every La Playa and Palapa bar in Baja. I once thought of writing a book on who had the best Cocktail De Camaron in all of Baja. During this time, she kept track of when every Kings game was being played, and had me driving around every town we were in to somehow find a feed showing the game. I think I went up and down every street in La Paz one night. One night at the Bahia De Los Angeles we decided to give up and just find a place to stay for the night.

We were tired and stumbled upon this rustic place right on the water (Sea of Cortez). The office was upstairs and when we walked through the door, behold, there was the Kings game on a big screen TV being watched by about 30 rabid Kings fans. God had smiled upon us... I've been back to that place many times since and have a lot of stories I could tell. But that's for another time. My point is, that now my daughter couldn't tell you who is on the team, and could care less. She reached a point where she told me that she just didn't care anymore.

So yes, I'm agreeing with you. Apathy is hard to come back from. At least when you feel anger, it means you still care. You wouldn't feel anger if you didn't. But apathy means the lack of feelings. No passion or anger, just indifference.
my wife is the same. I’m a little different in I have a son in law on the staff of a different team. But when the Kings play my wife says it’s bad basketball and will do anything else than watch this team.
 
To post a quick alternative to the 'lost interest' post. I have every reason to be apathetic about the Kings. I live in Melbourne and the time difference does not make it easy to watch games. When I do, games take forever compared to other sports and the Kings usually give up 120 points and lose. More generally, I have a busy job that I like, a good relationship, an unwell family member, and several other moving parts in my life that still move despite a lock down. But I'm still happy to follow the Kings. I like their current players and am interested to see how their careers go. Things are tough now but that will change. Leeds United were just promoted to the premier league after 16 years on the out. They had a few promotion near misses before finally making it in this year. When I started following basketball, teams like Golden State and the Clippers were consistently awful. One is now on the other end of a dynasty like run and the other started the year as possible title favourites. Maybe watching the team learn and develop, and waiting to see how they do it, or what it is that finally clicks, is something I am interested in.

I'm not trying to say anyone is in the wrong for being disgruntled. It has been more than a decade since the Kings put a playoff quality product on the floor, instead showing a preference for drama and missteps. But I think it's also nice to post something like 'it is OK to still care, still be invested.'
I live in Brisbane, have a daughter in Melbourne in lockdown when she should be enjoying all university life offers. Otherwise love Melbourne.
I don’t follow the Kings like I once did living here. I recon its a combination of lack of coverage and the constant poor product Vlade assembles. I had espn but they never played Kings games so got tired of the cost and after much time now just count on clips, draft sites and these boards to formulate my opinions.
Im still obviously a fan, have been since 85 but suspect the distance helps keep my emotional investment down.
Again looking forward to the draft and welcome front office change despite the importance of stability.
 
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