The State of the Kings

Time to rebuild?


  • Total voters
    56
  • Poll closed .
Not sure if there are any fans of The Office in here. But when when Vivek started blathering about his daughters basketball team after he first took over it felt like when DeAngelo Vickers took over for Michael and then started eating the cake with his hands on the first day and Dwight looks at Jim and says "uh oh". Except in this case DeAngelo stuck around and is here for the foreseeable future
really nothing is changing while Vivek and Matina are still here.
I will say this, at least Vivek had a clear grasp of what basketball is from a conceptual standpoint. People laughed at him for musical and specifically Jazz comps but he's actually right. Basketball at it's heart is all rhythm. What he doesn't understand though is your players determine what type of music you play. Also, he keeps hiring coaches that only play air drums with no lick of rhythm to them. They think the game out from the neck up. Joerger and Walton can't carry a tune to save the life. Which isn't always a bad thing. It works if your team is classic iso, physically dominant, or clock control defensive, motion play capable or something else, but that isn't the vision Vivek has ever described and that certainly doesn't describe the players he's got. In fact, the league is very monochromatic right now. It's all about talent and rhythm. The only way this can work, and in the end it still might not bring banners, but is to clear the paint, pick and roll, drive and dish, rinse, cycle, repeat. Sorry, no coach is going to go down in the books as the next Winter or Carril doing it but you might not totally suck year after year.

Speaking of Carril, there was a smart man who knew his place in the world. I read somewhere or heard that he used to joke about the use of college systems not working in the NBA as the Kings used aspects of his Princeton system. He wasn't. He created the system to beat teams with more talent at the college level. He knew what the score was in the NBA. You can't trick your way to legitimacy at this level. In fact it's built specifically to put up numbers and build stars. You can name plays this or that, run guys around in circles out of timeouts, but in the end you play to the players strengths.
 
He knew what the score was in the NBA. You can't trick your way to legitimacy at this level. In fact it's built specifically to put up numbers and build stars. You can name plays this or that, run guys around in circles out of timeouts, but in the end you play to the players strengths.
This all day. Your talent dictates the system.
 
State of the Kings. In my view the team has the talent to build on and our head coach is capable of getting improved play from this crew And those that he will have next season. Let us sit back and enjoy the process and play going into next season. I really enjoyed watching these guys play and improve during this last season. Go Kings, I’m with you.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
MOD NOTE: Since the poll is now pretty dated, I've closed it. I'd be happy to add a new one that could more accurately reflect the events that have taken place since this thread was started. ;)
 
It's pretty tough to build a winning team, and all of the experience that developing winning habits entails, when you are stopped right in the middle of the lesson and put on break for months on end. I thought that us losing most of the games in Orlando was to be expected. After all, most of the teams that we played against have already built the infrastructure needed to win. As annoying as excuse making is after 15 years of losing, this season was an extraordinary circumstance. I dont think that Vlade was accounting for having to stop a season half-way through, only to restart it in July when he originally set his timeframe for building a winner in Sacramento. Hats off to him for sticking to the time frame that he gave at the onset of his stewardship, but it would have been perfectly reasonable to wait and see how the Kings performed at the end of next season.
 
I thought the summer season was a bit of a joke going in despite some peoples high expectations. The fact that Phoenix went undefeated and couldn't advance confirmed it.

I'm not upset about Vlade but I also wouldn't have been disappointed if people just said "the world is ending let's write off this season and the next until it's safe". Still have not watched an NBA or NHL game.
 
https://sports.yahoo.com/buddy-hiel...kings-trade-request-sixers-nba-003626814.html

So the guys that back buddy no matter what that clown does I can’t wait to hear the new excuse for this.

Dudes a mediocre player who thinks he’s better than he is ship his lying ass out of here
The excuse is LUKE WALTON. LOL. The Lakers ushered him out the door ASAP and they're on their way to a title. Maybe, just maybe LeBron knew what he was doing? And they weren't even having the kind of prove it problems the Kings did in the bubble where the coach **** the bed in almost every way imaginable. FFS.

It would be funny if it weren't so sad. George Karl/Cuz part 2 folks!!! Seriously, Buddy problems are what they are but Viveks ability to turn a fire cracker into a mess of a nuclear bomb then deciding to drop it right over the land he just built his house on is truly stunning. The dude has absolutely ZERO personal/public relation skills and no understanding of how to turn a basketball investment into a profit personnel wise. ZERO. Just ducks his head in the sand and finds someone with either no track record or an iffy one to fix it. It's just too funny.

One thing is for sure. Teams are watching these playoffs and actually have brains. They see probably the best catch and shoot guard in the league getting crapped on by his franchise and think they can get him on the cheap. Too bad for Kings fans, they probably will. haha.
 
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So apparently Buddy wants to go to Philly?
I think someone pointed out that "liked" post wasn't him. However, clearly Philly wants him. And they can't wait to unload that Horford contract and a few future 2nd rounders in the process. Now we see if Vlade wasn't the only one in love with that filler. Maybe they can add a few more undrafted combo guard types that are either too small or can't shoot to go along with the plethora of the ones they have already. Clearly, looking at the teams going anywhere that's the trick.
 
The excuse is LUKE WALTON. LOL. The Lakers ushered him out the door ASAP and they're on their way to a title. Maybe, just maybe LeBron knew what he was doing? And they weren't even having the kind of prove it problems the Kings did in the bubble where the coach **** the bed in almost every way imaginable. FFS.

It would be funny if it weren't so sad. George Karl/Cuz part 2 folks!!! Seriously, Buddy problems are what they are but Viveks ability to turn a fire cracker into a mess of a nuclear bomb then deciding to drop it right over the land he just built his house on is truly stunning. The dude has absolutely ZERO personal/public relation skills and no understanding of how to turn a basketball investment into a profit personnel wise. ZERO. Just ducks his head in the sand and finds someone with either no track record or an iffy one to fix it. It's just too funny.

One thing is for sure. Teams are watching these playoffs and actually have brains. They see probably the best catch and shoot guard in the league getting crapped on by his franchise and think they can get him on the cheap. Too bad for Kings fans, they probably will. haha.
I’m trying to make sense out of that Buddy Walton dynamic as well. I don’t see it improving unless McNair makes changes.
I would say Walton is the problem, personally I would be fine if he were no longer the coach, but from what I understand is that Buddy had issues with Joerger as well. This along with all his dumb arse tweets leads me to believe that Buddy is either stupid, or a toxic malcontent, and needs to go.
 
I’m trying to make sense out of that Buddy Walton dynamic as well. I don’t see it improving unless McNair makes changes.
I would say Walton is the problem, personally I would be fine if he were no longer the coach, but from what I understand is that Buddy had issues with Joerger as well. This along with all his dumb arse tweets leads me to believe that Buddy is either stupid, or a toxic malcontent, and needs to go.
If Buddy were Lukes only issue it would be easy, you do what you can to get Buddy out. Still unfortunate considering the power of elite catch and shoot players now. This team was what it was in almost every combo Luke tried and he tried them all! For Joerger, again, wrong coach for the team assembled. At least he had more of a track record but I'm sorry, Joerger kind of exposed himself on the infamous Buddy shot where he yelled at his star player for making a huge shot. Like WTF? Buddy might be stupid, it doesn't change the fact that players are assets. If you see the kind of value in that asset they did and decide to use the resources they did to keep that asset, you better damn well use that asset to it's strengths. Buddy clearly is smart enough to complain back in December that he needed to be used more in catch and shoot scenarios. Waltons ultimate decision? Back up PG.

And on a side note, just to go along with more of how this franchise is insane. So, dig this. Now the rumors start of Gentry coming in the role of the new Igor. Yeah, that shows real faith in Luke Waltons long term future there. Great way to make sure this team starts off on a trusting positive foot next year. Gentry historically is actually not a bad option for the roster style wise. Why waste your time and rely on the small percentage that doesn't turn out the same way it did last go around? Are they going to let Walton fail miserably for one part of the season, then show improvement with a top shelf of mediocre to drag things out as they watch another backup coach walk because they got sick of just holding the knife?
 
If Buddy were Lukes only issue it would be easy, you do what you can to get Buddy out. Still unfortunate considering the power of elite catch and shoot players now. This team was what it was in almost every combo Luke tried and he tried them all! For Joerger, again, wrong coach for the team assembled. At least he had more of a track record but I'm sorry, Joerger kind of exposed himself on the infamous Buddy shot where he yelled at his star player for making a huge shot. Like WTF? Buddy might be stupid, it doesn't change the fact that players are assets. If you see the kind of value in that asset they did and decide to use the resources they did to keep that asset, you better damn well use that asset to it's strengths. Buddy clearly is smart enough to complain back in December that he needed to be used more in catch and shoot scenarios. Waltons ultimate decision? Back up PG.

And on a side note, just to go along with more of how this franchise is insane. So, dig this. Now the rumors start of Gentry coming in the role of the new Igor. Yeah, that shows real faith in Luke Waltons long term future there. Great way to make sure this team starts off on a trusting positive foot next year. Gentry historically is actually not a bad option for the roster style wise. Why waste your time and rely on the small percentage that doesn't turn out the same way it did last go around? Are they going to let Walton fail miserably for one part of the season, then show improvement with a top shelf of mediocre to drag things out as they watch another backup coach walk because they got sick of just holding the knife?
As I said Im just trying to make sense of the situation because I don’t see how its going to work. I shouldn’t have used the word stupid and I obviously downplayed Buddys contribution and strength but thats easy to fall into when I continuously hear on these boards how poor he is in other aspects of the game. Also the social media comments, something has to give.
Yes the mention of recruiting Gentry was a head scratcher. I don’t figure Walton has much of a future in Sac, likely still here to save $$ but how many coaches will we have to blow through to accommodate Buddy.
 
https://sports.yahoo.com/buddy-hiel...kings-trade-request-sixers-nba-003626814.html

So the guys that back buddy no matter what that clown does I can’t wait to hear the new excuse for this.

Dudes a mediocre player who thinks he’s better than he is ship his lying ass out of here
Regardless of his issues with the Kings and the dysfunction associated with this franchise, his willingness to go straight to social media/the press and make things public immediately is an issue. A mutual separation at this point would be beneficial. We aren't winning anything with Buddy and his contract does us no favors either. I'd gladly part ways with him. Something like Hield, Joseph for Horford, Matisse Thybulle, 2 seconds could work.
 
The excuse is LUKE WALTON. LOL. The Lakers ushered him out the door ASAP and they're on their way to a title. Maybe, just maybe LeBron knew what he was doing? And they weren't even having the kind of prove it problems the Kings did in the bubble where the coach **** the bed in almost every way imaginable. FFS.

It would be funny if it weren't so sad. George Karl/Cuz part 2 folks!!! Seriously, Buddy problems are what they are but Viveks ability to turn a fire cracker into a mess of a nuclear bomb then deciding to drop it right over the land he just built his house on is truly stunning. The dude has absolutely ZERO personal/public relation skills and no understanding of how to turn a basketball investment into a profit personnel wise. ZERO. Just ducks his head in the sand and finds someone with either no track record or an iffy one to fix it. It's just too funny.

One thing is for sure. Teams are watching these playoffs and actually have brains. They see probably the best catch and shoot guard in the league getting crapped on by his franchise and think they can get him on the cheap. Too bad for Kings fans, they probably will. haha.
Yeah, I don’t know how Luke wasn’t able to win with Lebron and AD.
 
If Buddy were Lukes only issue it would be easy, you do what you can to get Buddy out. Still unfortunate considering the power of elite catch and shoot players now. This team was what it was in almost every combo Luke tried and he tried them all! For Joerger, again, wrong coach for the team assembled. At least he had more of a track record but I'm sorry, Joerger kind of exposed himself on the infamous Buddy shot where he yelled at his star player for making a huge shot. Like WTF? Buddy might be stupid, it doesn't change the fact that players are assets. If you see the kind of value in that asset they did and decide to use the resources they did to keep that asset, you better damn well use that asset to it's strengths. Buddy clearly is smart enough to complain back in December that he needed to be used more in catch and shoot scenarios. Waltons ultimate decision? Back up PG.

And on a side note, just to go along with more of how this franchise is insane. So, dig this. Now the rumors start of Gentry coming in the role of the new Igor. Yeah, that shows real faith in Luke Waltons long term future there. Great way to make sure this team starts off on a trusting positive foot next year. Gentry historically is actually not a bad option for the roster style wise. Why waste your time and rely on the small percentage that doesn't turn out the same way it did last go around? Are they going to let Walton fail miserably for one part of the season, then show improvement with a top shelf of mediocre to drag things out as they watch another backup coach walk because they got sick of just holding the knife?
Buddy has a problem with inconsistent coaches. What they expect of him on the court in relation to other players. He's loud, never stops talking and is demonstrative. For some coaches, they feel a need to control a player's personality by punishing him on the court. That's a non starter for a strong personality.

We may not like what he has said to the media because it's airing dirty laundry, but it doesn't make his statements false. Bogie turns the ball over just as much, is not a good defender and takes ill advised shots at the end of games. If the only argument we can use is that Bogie is a smarter player, well it doesn't bear out in the actual execution on the court. So Buddy sticks up for himself. Buddy is not going to roll over for inconsistent treatment. That doesn't necessarily make him a malcontent.

So this on Walton and his approach. That being said, if Buddy wants to leave, which he has not publicly said, then get something good for him and move on.
 
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Yeah, I don’t know how Luke wasn’t able to win with Lebron and AD.
Not a Luke apologist by any means, but Luke did NOT have AD...his team with the Lakers last year was almost completely different than this years version of the Lakers. LeBron sat out most of last year with an injury, and prior to Lebrons injury I believe the Lakers were right around 3-4 seed in the West.
 
Not a Luke apologist by any means, but Luke did NOT have AD...his team with the Lakers last year was almost completely different than this years version of the Lakers. LeBron sat out most of last year with an injury, and prior to Lebrons injury I believe the Lakers were right around 3-4 seed in the West.
I was about to say the same thing. Lakers were like the 3 seed without AD before lebron got hurt. This was also when the warriors weren’t tanking. Again not saying luke is a great coach but he wasn’t the reason the lakers didn’t make the playoffs and he didn’t miss the playoffs with lebron AND Anthony Davis.
 
As I said Im just trying to make sense of the situation because I don’t see how its going to work. I shouldn’t have used the word stupid and I obviously downplayed Buddys contribution and strength but thats easy to fall into when I continuously hear on these boards how poor he is in other aspects of the game. Also the social media comments, something has to give.
Yes the mention of recruiting Gentry was a head scratcher. I don’t figure Walton has much of a future in Sac, likely still here to save $$ but how many coaches will we have to blow through to accommodate Buddy.
I don't know, but I know they'll keep blowing through coaches at the very least until they find one that understands the roster he has before him and how to use them. This is so far beyond concrete at this point. You have a Cuz, now a Buddy, next a Fox or a Bagley. As someone once said, "The definition of insanity is being a fan of the Kings and watching them repeat the same patterns while expecting different results."
 
Buddy has a problem with inconsistent coaches. What they expect of him on the court in relation to other players. He's loud, never stops talking and is demonstrative. For some coaches, they feel a need to control a player's personality by punishing him on the court. That's a non starter for a strong personality.

We may not like what he has said to the media because it's airing dirty laundry, but it doesn't make his statements false. Bogie turns the ball over just as much, is not a good defender and takes ill advised shots at the end of games. If the only argument we can use is that Bogie is a smarter player, well it doesn't bear out in the actual execution on the court. So Buddy sticks up for himself. Buddy is not going to roll over for inconsistent treatment. That doesn't necessarily make him a malcontent.

So this on Walton and his approach. That being said, if Buddy wants to leave, which he has not publicly said, then get something good for him and move on.
Exactly. Yeah, reality check here, the NBA has the most entitled athletes in all of sports next to maybe tennis. Deal with it anyone who doesn't get it. It goes with the ropes of being one of the more individualized games. This and tennis pretty much REQUIRE that type of personality to succeed. It just is what it is. Don't like it as an owner, or a coach, or a GM? Get out. If not it doesn't matter, you will find yourself out at some point.

It's hard to blast a player when he does have ground to stand on. In a perfect world he shuts up and plays balls out but again, not gonna happen here if you want to win.

The only Walton that can salvage this is Bill Walton. We've seriously come to the point where the only hope is the biggest, most glorious and spiritually involved drum circle in the history of mankind. Heck, invite Phil Jackson to the party. Hahaha.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
The excuse is LUKE WALTON. LOL. The Lakers ushered him out the door ASAP and they're on their way to a title. Maybe, just maybe LeBron knew what he was doing? And they weren't even having the kind of prove it problems the Kings did in the bubble where the coach **** the bed in almost every way imaginable. FFS.

It would be funny if it weren't so sad. George Karl/Cuz part 2 folks!!! Seriously, Buddy problems are what they are but Viveks ability to turn a fire cracker into a mess of a nuclear bomb then deciding to drop it right over the land he just built his house on is truly stunning. The dude has absolutely ZERO personal/public relation skills and no understanding of how to turn a basketball investment into a profit personnel wise. ZERO. Just ducks his head in the sand and finds someone with either no track record or an iffy one to fix it. It's just too funny.

One thing is for sure. Teams are watching these playoffs and actually have brains. They see probably the best catch and shoot guard in the league getting crapped on by his franchise and think they can get him on the cheap. Too bad for Kings fans, they probably will. haha.
If all Buddy did was catch and shoot, I wouldn't have a problem with him, but he simply doesn't play defense at times, and he's a turnover machine at the wrong time of the game. There are times when Buddy has the BBIQ of a rock, and I'm sorry, having a player like that on the floor for the last five minutes of a close game, will cost you more games than you'll win.

If Buddy wants to be on the floor at crunch time, then my advice to him is to start engaging his brain, focus, concentrate, and stop thinking your Michael Jordan. Because Jordan didn't make stupid mistakes at the end of games. In fairness to Buddy, Walton shouldn't have asked him to try to be more than he is.
 
If all Buddy did was catch and shoot, I wouldn't have a problem with him, but he simply doesn't play defense at times, and he's a turnover machine at the wrong time of the game. There are times when Buddy has the BBIQ of a rock, and I'm sorry, having a player like that on the floor for the last five minutes of a close game, will cost you more games than you'll win.

If Buddy wants to be on the floor at crunch time, then my advice to him is to start engaging his brain, focus, concentrate, and stop thinking your Michael Jordan. Because Jordan didn't make stupid mistakes at the end of games. In fairness to Buddy, Walton shouldn't have asked him to try to be more than he is.
That may very well be true, but in the end the 5 man advanced stats still paint the picture. This team was simply better when he was on the floor and not just a bit better but the difference was terrible negative ratings to actually pretty decent positive ones. There is no argument against it. Literally. And this wasn't simply an issue of being taken off the floor in crunch time it was vast misuse that extended beyond just Buddy. The results also speak for themselves and that has to weigh in on what happens when and if this turns to a him or me, as it appears to be heading. Last time they chose neither and it was plain stupid considering the HOF coach they dumped would have thrived with the team they ended up building anyway. Historically speaking even outside of the him or me scenario, hanging on to the lame duck coach in this type of situation is pointless unless they actually give that coach a say in how they build or power. As I said, they're already attempting to put another safety net option right over his shoulder. So you're openly showing you don't trust the coach that is openly losing the trust of his players? Is this real life??? LOL.

Buddy's not a fully complete player but he's potentially great at what he does at a time when that particular skill is lifting teams all the way to deep into the playoffs if not the finals despite a lack of superstar versatility or depth. That's why a coach like Walton can have such a damaging effect because clearly he didn't know how to use him or how the league has fully tilted stylistically. That's also inarguable. The biggest gripe is this appears to be following the same path as the Cuz/Karl situation where the Kings end up being the one having wasted time and assets for no reason because instead of picking a direction they sat in the middle of the road hoping all the traffic would continue to avoid them as the relationships involved became more and more strained. Maybe it will all come together but it's hard to trust the same franchise going down the same path expecting different results.... again. If they can come out of this with the team intact with Luke Walton leading the charge then they have not only defied the odds but they've shattered them.
 
The excuse is LUKE WALTON. LOL. The Lakers ushered him out the door ASAP and they're on their way to a title. Maybe, just maybe LeBron knew what he was doing? And they weren't even having the kind of prove it problems the Kings did in the bubble where the coach **** the bed in almost every way imaginable. FFS.

It would be funny if it weren't so sad. George Karl/Cuz part 2 folks!!! Seriously, Buddy problems are what they are but Viveks ability to turn a fire cracker into a mess of a nuclear bomb then deciding to drop it right over the land he just built his house on is truly stunning. The dude has absolutely ZERO personal/public relation skills and no understanding of how to turn a basketball investment into a profit personnel wise. ZERO. Just ducks his head in the sand and finds someone with either no track record or an iffy one to fix it. It's just too funny.

One thing is for sure. Teams are watching these playoffs and actually have brains. They see probably the best catch and shoot guard in the league getting crapped on by his franchise and think they can get him on the cheap. Too bad for Kings fans, they probably will. haha.
Pretty sure Luke would have been just fine with Anthony Davis as part of the equation. He didn't have that luxury and if not for all of their injuries, likely would have been in the playoffs last year too
 
Pretty sure Luke would have been just fine with Anthony Davis as part of the equation. He didn't have that luxury and if not for all of their injuries, likely would have been in the playoffs last year too
Well, he wasn't fine with LeBron James. Or at least LeBron wasn't fine with him. Whoops. Would he have put up a decent record? Heck yeah. I would be a little more unbiased had I not seen Luke's first season (injuries or not) with the Kings. Head scratching decisions even when they were uncalled for is an understatement. As a team if you are going to give your coach power to shape his team stylistically then you have to give them the chance to shape the teams roster as well otherwise it'll never work unless that coach is one that will adapt to the team he has. That's why Doc got the Philly spot over D'Antoni. D'Antoni barely survived after his Knicks tenure when he tried to adapt his players to his system. He came into Philly and made no bones about the roster changes he'd need. That was a quick no go. Now, maybe Walton will adapt but putting changes to the core pieces of this team for the sake of a lameduck holdover coach is just simply a bad bet regardless. Even if it works out it doesn't make it anything other than a bad bet. Gee, wonder why the Kings tank nearly every draft pick? Bad bets. The Maloofs may have sold the team but they must have left behind their guide on how to gamble your way to failure.
 
Well, he wasn't fine with LeBron James. Or at least LeBron wasn't fine with him. Whoops. Would he have put up a decent record? Heck yeah. I would be a little more unbiased had I not seen Luke's first season (injuries or not) with the Kings. Head scratching decisions even when they were uncalled for is an understatement. As a team if you are going to give your coach power to shape his team stylistically then you have to give them the chance to shape the teams roster as well otherwise it'll never work unless that coach is one that will adapt to the team he has. That's why Doc got the Philly spot over D'Antoni. D'Antoni barely survived after his Knicks tenure when he tried to adapt his players to his system. He came into Philly and made no bones about the roster changes he'd need. That was a quick no go. Now, maybe Walton will adapt but putting changes to the core pieces of this team for the sake of a lameduck holdover coach is just simply a bad bet regardless. Even if it works out it doesn't make it anything other than a bad bet. Gee, wonder why the Kings tank nearly every draft pick? Bad bets. The Maloofs may have sold the team but they must have left behind their guide on how to gamble your way to failure.
who cares if he was fine with lebron lebron doesn’t wanna be coached and begged Riley to fire Spolstra
 
Pretty sure Luke would have been just fine with Anthony Davis as part of the equation. He didn't have that luxury and if not for all of their injuries, likely would have been in the playoffs last year too
Most coaches would likely be fine with LeBron and Anthony Davis leading the team. I felt that Luke was an overrated coach even in LA, but I don't watch enough Laker games to have made a true judgment.

Last year was a coaching embarrassment on his part. I think he is legitimately the worst coach in the NBA right now.
 
Most coaches would likely be fine with LeBron and Anthony Davis leading the team. I felt that Luke was an overrated coach even in LA, but I don't watch enough Laker games to have made a true judgment.

Last year was a coaching embarrassment on his part. I think he is legitimately the worst coach in the NBA right now.
I respect your opinion but there are definitely worse coaches out there and still coaching, unfortunately. Walton needs to be a lot better but he isn’t a complete lost cause IMO