The Spencer Hawes NO More 3 Point Shots Campaign!!!

[Oprostaj]

As much as I agree with you Brick, there is flaw in your logic. Good, or rather great teams, have balance. L.A. has Odom / Paul. Boston has KG/Big Baby. Orlando has Gortat, Lewis and Anderson. Cleveland has Big Z. Denver doesn't really play a traditional half court set that drops it down to their bigs. Both Nene and Martin rely on putbacks, transition baskets. nene does spend his share of time down low, but how many times do you see the Nuggets walk it up the court and run set plays for him down there? Point being, you need balance. All the guys I mentioned above are above average shooters for big guys, with a couple being pretty dead eye. Spacing is important, but winning the paint comes first and foremost. You play inside out. Maybe we would get more spacing if Hawes could prove he can shoot? I want my 7' C to be inside, block and hit people. If he has that "extra" dimension where he can hurt teams from the outside, that will add a great element and will make us deadly from pick and roll with Tyreke. Right now? No spacing, only Hawes wussifying himself with every brick.

 

[mac]

Put it this way. If he's hitting his shots, then OCCASIONALLY utilise him outside, it'll just add more options to our offense. But shooting well or not he should be down in the post where he has proven he has the skills to be a great scorer.

So... shooting well. 0-12. hmm.

 

[Prince_XY]

I can't see the point why people would still condone Hawes shooting 3's, when the fact of the matter is that the wussy Kid has not been making them and his other teammates can do that for our team instead of him.

I can't see the point why people still condone Hawes shooting 3's, when the fact of the matter is that Hawes is our CENTER who is supposedly operating in or near the paint. If he is fast enough to return to the post, then it's fine. But the fact is - he is too slow to get back.

I can't see the point why people still condone Hawes shooting 3's, when the fact of the matter is that we don't have the luxury of having another extra-ordinary center with him when he shoots those 3's, like Ben Wallace was for Rasheed of the Pistons.

I can't see the point why people still condone Hawes shooting 3's, when a lot of us think he looks soft as a center, and shooting 3's does not help him look otherwise.

Do you guys really want Hawes to stay the softie center he is right now?

For teams' sake, don't play like the wussy Center that you are right now Mr. 7-footer! You are disappointing a lot of us who think you can do better!

 

[ElRey]

I can't see the point why people would still condone Hawes shooting 3's, when the fact of the matter is that the wussy Kid has not been making them and his other teammates can do that for our team instead of him.

I can't see the point why people still condone Hawes shooting 3's, when the fact of the matter is that Hawes is our CENTER who is supposedly operating in or near the paint. If he is fast enough to return to the post, then it's fine. But the fact is - he is too slow to get back.

I can't see the point why people still condone Hawes shooting 3's, when the fact of the matter is that we don't have the luxury of having another extra-ordinary center with him when he shoots those 3's, like Ben Wallace was for Rasheed of the Pistons.

I can't see the point why people still condone Hawes shooting 3's, when a lot of us think he looks soft as a center, and shooting 3's does not help him look otherwise.

Do you guys really want Hawes to stay the softie center he is right now?

For teams' sake, don't play like the wussy Center that you are right now Mr. 7-footer! You are disappointing a lot of us who think you can do better!

Cosigned!

"Throw it down big man Throw it down!" Bill Walton

 

[kupman]

I do not mind him shooting 3s as a compliment to his game, but it should be his game. He goes to it way too easily right now. If I were the coach at this point I would tell him that he is not allowed to shoot any 3s (or near 3s) until he has made 4 baskets from 6 ft or less. If he shoots a 3 before then he is benched until our next game.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Consider this more directed at that entire oft repeated and erroneous line of argument than at yourself:

Its a truly odd development how 90% of NBA champions somehow survive their spacing being sacrficed to have their big men play down inside. Or at least within shouting distance of inside.

I mean, I'm sure their are petitions underway in L.A. (Bynum) Boston (Perkins), Orlando (Howard), Cleveland (Shaq), Denver (Nene) etc. to get those pesky inside guys out to the perimeter out of the way of the guards and all (note BTW that only Howard is entirely out of Okafor's class as a scorer at this point). But you know how bigs can be on contending teams -- always wanting to go inside and dominate around the hoop and all. Fools! We are the Kings! We worship soft play and jump shots! We haven't won a title in 50 years, but hey, we know how its done. We scoff at the entire history of the league. Who needs a Ben Wallace when you can have a Brad Miller? The superiority of our tactics is self-evident.

I appreciate that you've moved some from your stance in the other thread that Bill Laimbeer was a singular talent, but the only championship Ben Wallace has ever won was alongside a 6'11" "forward" who had the option of either posting up or shooting a three. Sheed is currently with Boston, where he's coming off the bench to spell KG and Perkins, shooting an average of 6 threes a game(!)

We have a similar dynamic as Detroit here, with JT as the garbageman and Spencer... well...

The problem with Spencer this season isn't shot selection, it's sucking. I hope he works his way out of it, but whether he's posting up, or shooting stupid jumpshots, he's missing and turning the ball over. An ideal Spencer would space the floor on one possession, and punish people inside on another, but that's not what we have this season. Instead we have another garbageman, who shows a lot of hustle, and few of the skills (interior or exterior) that made him so intriguing as a prospect.

 

[jaysoonii]

Obviously he can shoot; otherwise he wouldn't even attempt them at all. There just not going in. Maybe in practices hes stroking, but not in games. Ray Allen missed 16 straight 3's before, and he still shoots. Spencer does need to man up and use his body to get to the bucket, but imagine when he starts knocking down those 3's. It makes everyones life so much easier in the paint.

 

[VF21]

Why are there two threads with duplicated posts on the same topic? Can't we just agree to have one???

 

[ElRey]

Why are there two threads with duplicated posts on the same topic? Can't we just agree to have one???

Because this one is specific to Hawes' ill advised 3 pt shots, and the other one about Hawes being a "wuss". But I see your point.

 

[Sac.1989]

todays bee headline

Kings: Westphal encourages Hawes to shoot

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/2327844.html

 

[Bricklayer]

I appreciate that you've moved some from your stance in the other thread that Bill Laimbeer was a singular talent, but the only championship Ben Wallace has ever won was alongside a 6'11" "forward" who had the option of either posting up or shooting a three. Sheed is currently with Boston, where he's coming off the bench to spell KG and Perkins, shooting an average of 6 threes a game(!)

We have a similar dynamic as Detroit here, with JT as the garbageman and Spencer... well...

The problem with Spencer this season isn't shot selection, it's sucking. I hope he works his way out of it, but whether he's posting up, or shooting stupid jumpshots, he's missing and turning the ball over. An ideal Spencer would space the floor on one possession, and punish people inside on another, but that's not what we have this season. Instead we have another garbageman, who shows a lot of hustle, and few of the skills (interior or exterior) that made him so intriguing as a prospect.

I haven't moved from my stance at all. You introduced PFs, and sorry, that's a fail argument too. Even including PFs, so now taking the ENTIRE FRONTCOURTS of every champinship team in the last 29 years since the 3pt shot was invented? Do you know how many 3pt shooting bigs there have been in the starting lineups of those championship teams?

Three.

Bill Laimbeer, an old groundbound thug who found a way to extend his career by doing something freaky.

Rasheed Wallace, who won a single title for a one hit wonder team after playing half a year in Detroit, and actually was one of the best post players of his era when he wasn't farting around at the 3pt line. Ask Detroit whetehr his contribution was his 3pt shooting or his post play.

And Robert Horry, a clutch roleplaying SF who twice was called upon to play 25min a night roleplaying starter next to all time legendary centers (who did not shoot threes BTW) -- once for half a season in Houston next to Hakeem after Otis Thorpe was traded away for Clyde Drexler, once next to Shaquille O'Neal assuming the spot held down by ancient AC Green and Horace Grant the previous two championship years. Both seasons it should be noted his teams had won the title the year beforehand, so you can hardly say his presence and shooting put them over the top.


There's your grand total. If anything it strengthens the 3pt shooting bigs are garbage argument, because more PFs than Cs shoot them around the league, and yet they just DO NOT WIN TITLES. And the handful of times they have they have been playing alongside all time monster defender/rebounders who can cover for their pansieness (what they are trying to do down in Orlando of course) and could have won it with almsot anybody. You introduced an entire different positon to the argument (and a different one from what Spencer plays) and got 3 shaky seasons out of it, two of them half seasons, two of them for teams that had already won the title the year before, one for a one hit wonder freak team that had precedent neither before nor after, and all three playing next to all time great physcial beasts at center.

So now here's our all time list of championship starting frontcourts since the three point line was invented. Three point shooters will be in red. Wusses would be in pink, except there haven't been any. Maybe Buddha Edwards.

2009 -- Bynum/Gasol
2008 -- Perkins/Garnett
2007 -- Oberto/Duncan
2006 -- Shaq/Haslem
2005 -- Rasho/Duncan
2004 -- Wallace/Wallace (half year)
2003 -- Robinson/Duncan
2002 -- Shaq/Horry
2001 -- Shaq/Grant
2000 -- Shaq/Green
1999 -- Robinson/Duncan
1998 -- Longley/Rodman
1997 -- Longley/Rodman
1996 -- Longley/Rodman
1995 -- Hakeem/Horry (half year)
1994 -- Hakeem/Thorpe
1993 -- Cartwright/Grant
1992 -- Cartwright/Grant
1991 -- Cartwright/Grant
1990 -- Laimbeer/Edwards(Rodman/Salley -- platoon)
1989 -- Laimbeer/Edwards(Rodman/Salley -- platoon)
1988 -- Abdul Jabbar/Green
1987 -- Abdul Jabbar/Green
1986 -- Parish/McHale
1985 -- Abdul Jabbar/Rambis
1984 -- Parish/McHale (Greg Kite might have been spot starting, forget)
1983 -- Malone/Jones
1982 -- Abdul Jabbar/Rambis
1981 -- Parish/Maxwell
1980 -- Abdul Jabbar/Chones


You could hardly have hit upon a trait LESS attached to title winning than 3pt shooting bigs. You would have been better off arguing for bigs who like to put ketchup on their eggs or who have warts on their *** in the shape of Texas.

You mention spacing. Sure. 16-18 feet is all you have ever needed out of a big. Its all you've needed for 30 years of title teams. You also mention roleplayers off the bench. And again, sure. If you want to have a 4th big who can come in occasionally and matchup with a three, some teams have done that. Normally a 3/4. A bench player who might average 8pts a game or some such and present a different look. But that's what you are talking about here. A roleplayer carried tot he title by guys who play it straight. Championship bigs do not shoot threes. They just don't. They battle inside. If they have post game, they use it. If they don't, then they set screens, crash the glass, move to the hoop to take pases off of guard penetration, and do a variety of other useful things that you can't do camped out at the three point line.

 

[King Baller]

How many 16' elbow jumpers did CWebb shoot over his carreer? That is the outside shot Spence should work on. That spot works great for the pick and pop and is a good place to be to get a long rebound.

Spence you can still shoot the J, just move in a bit.

KB

 

[kupman]

Not that it matters much, but (I think) you could add Matt Bullard from the Rockets to the list of bigs who primarily shots 3s and won a championship. His game and Horry's game were pretty similar.

Note: Do not take this in any way, shape or form that Hawes shoud keep launching 3s as his primary weapon.

 

[Kingster]

I hope Westphal (and Coachie) have some flexibility about that idea. It takes away Hawes' greatest assets as a player (size, offensive post game) and cuts his rebounding potential, while offering nothing much in return but a handy floor position to play a semi-Princetonian C from.

In a way, we've already been through this. Vlade couldn't spread the floor to save his life, but it worked anyway. Brad could spread the floor a bit, but it didn't work out so well for us.

I hope the coaching staff will try to makes Hawes into a tougher, non-flopping Vlade, rather than Brad II. He'll never have Vlade's amazing leadership skills, but I think he still has the potential to do the rest, with good coaching and a lot of motivation. And, to be either Vlade II or Brad II, he needs to improve his ball handling/passing. Without that, there's not even any point in having him on the perimeter. That's what I'd be focusing on now, not the stupid 3 balls.

Our guards and SFs can all shoot 3s. If that isn't enough to spread the floor any, we must be doing something wrong.

"Hawes said he needs to concentrate on improving his offensive game near the rim to get himself going. He'll need to be more assertive in letting guards know when he wants the ball and continue to develop a rapport with the ballhandlers."

I think Hawes knows how to get his confidence up. See above.

I also hope Westphal has some flexibility on this. I'm with him on the open-up-the-floor concept (I wrote about it when I proposed drafting Tyreke), but Hawes's game is in effect being sacrificed right now for the greater good by Westphal. I think Westphal will make some changes because he operates from the notion that the offense must take advantage of a player's strengths and minimize his weaknesses. Right now, the offense isn't doing that for Hawes nearly enough. We all know the strength of Hawes's game are his offensive skills, but right now he's much more of the garbage man rebounder, occassional shot blocker (not his relative stengths). He needs more shots to maximize his potential for the team. Based on the article above, Westphal apparently doesn't agree with me on this.

 

[bajaden]

Being an advocate of doing away with the three point shot altogether, I'm not about to defend Hawes propensity toward taking them. I can't think of one great center that ever played in this league that made his mark playing that far away from the basket. There is a reason some players are centers. They happen to be taller than everyone else on their team. Hopefully! Move out to 23 feet from the basket and you negate whatever advantage you might have had from your height.

If your a good outside shooter, and the clock is running down, and your wide open, fine! But to camp out there, and wait for the ball. No, thats not fine with me. Thats like taking a tank and using it as a jeep. You won't win many wars doing that.

Hawes needs to find out who he is. He needs to define himself. Thompson has defined himself. We all know what kind of player he is and the direction that he's headed. We don't know that about Hawes. You can't become good at anything until you figure out what it is that your trying to become good at. Who your trying to emmulate. Right now he's starting to look like a poor man's Robert Horry. Personally I wouldn't want the original on my team, much less a cheap imitation. He's still very young, so I haven't given up hope. He seems to have fire in his belly. He just needs to direct it properly..

 

[Kingster]

Being an advocate of doing away with the three point shot altogether, I'm not about to defend Hawes propensity toward taking them. I can't think of one great center that ever played in this league that made his mark playing that far away from the basket. There is a reason some players are centers. They happen to be taller than everyone else on their team. Hopefully! Move out to 23 feet from the basket and you negate whatever advantage you might have had from your height.

If your a good outside shooter, and the clock is running down, and your wide open, fine! But to camp out there, and wait for the ball. No, thats not fine with me. Thats like taking a tank and using it as a jeep. You won't win many wars doing that.

Hawes needs to find out who he is. He needs to define himself. Thompson has defined himself. We all know what kind of player he is and the direction that he's headed. We don't know that about Hawes. You can't become good at anything until you figure out what it is that your trying to become good at. Who your trying to emmulate. Right now he's starting to look like a poor man's Robert Horry. Personally I wouldn't want the original on my team, much less a cheap imitation. He's still very young, so I haven't given up hope. He seems to have fire in his belly. He just needs to direct it properly..

Well, he may have defined himself only to find that Westphal doesn't agree with the definition. I think Hawes has MUCH greater offensive potential than what we currently see. All you have to do is think back to year 1 when he was letting 14' hook shots fly. To me, he should be getting the ball in shooting position as much or more as anyone on this team because then he would be maximizing his talent. Hopefully, we see he and the coaches getting it together sometime this season.

 

[Oprostaj]

He needs to be taught properly. What coach would advocate him shooting? He needs to be punished every time he steps out beyond 10'. For each foot outside, hit him with a 2 x 4. Can we get Bobby Knight as a consultant? If Hawes doesn't crap himself he'll toughen up.

 

[TTown Kings]

0-12 on the season, STOP SHOOTING 3s SPENCE! You shouldn't even be hanging out anywhere near there...

 

[OptimusRhyme]

I dont care if hes on the three point line to clear room for other players, especially if we are playing against a shot blocking center. Spence shooting threes and draggin the D out there can be a very useful thing.

He hasnt been hitting his shots yet but i would like to see him to continue to take the open threes at the right times. everyone hates him when he misses, but loves him when he makes. We all know he can shoot, itll come back to him.

 

[D13]

Time to stop with the Spence witch hunt....

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/2327844.html

The team is behind him shooting, and until that changes, give him a break. He's young, and doing as told by the guys with real insight into his game.

Dang... what's DWade, something like 8 for 36 from 3 this season?

... for the record, I am all for getting Bup C to play hard inside.. but Spence has his advantages too. We should have faith that coach will use him wisely. I see Him as kind of a Pau Gasol type of player in a couple years... and he can be strong at the 4 when needed too.

 

[Bricklayer]

Time to stop with the Spence witch hunt....

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/2327844.html

The team is behind him shooting, and until that changes, give him a break. He's young, and doing as told by the guys with real insight into his game.

Dang... what's DWade, something like 8 for 36 from 3 this season?

... for the record, I am all for getting Bup C to play hard inside.. but Spence has his advantages too. We should have faith that coach will use him wisely. I see Him as kind of a Pau Gasol type of player in a couple years... and he can be strong at the 4 when needed too.

1) Wade's a guard

2) I didn't even bother to dispute that article because NOWHERE anywhere in it did coahc or anybody else say they wanted him shootng threes. The big quote was that if he missed a jumper, coach wanted him to stay confident and take the next one if he got the chance. Which would kind of be coaching confidence builder 101. Maybe it meant threes. Maybe. But then again if there had been any real indication of that or quote to that effect you can be damn sure it owuld have bene printed given the controversy.

 

[ElRey]

Time to stop with the Spence witch hunt....

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/2327844.html

The team is behind him shooting, and until that changes, give him a break. He's young, and doing as told by the guys with real insight into his game.

Dang... what's DWade, something like 8 for 36 from 3 this season?

... for the record, I am all for getting Bup C to play hard inside.. but Spence has his advantages too. We should have faith that coach will use him wisely. I see Him as kind of a Pau Gasol type of player in a couple years... and he can be strong at the 4 when needed too.

The Brickman is right, no where in the article does it say they want him shooting three pointers. Just think about it, do you want your center out there shooting 3 pointers or would you rather have him inside the paint doing work? Which one do you think he'd be better at? Nobody has any problem with Spencer shooting, we just want him to do it inside the paint and within the 3 pt line.

If Spencer wants to shoot threes, I think most opposing teams would oblige and let him shoot it ALL DAY.