The prospect of Udrih/ Evans/ Martin starting together...

[Emma]

I started this thread because the starting lineup is something that will demand attention when Martin becomes healthy. I would like to start a discussion based on the merits/demerits of, and alternatives to, the three guard starting lineup. As for me, I kind of throw up a little when I see the 3 guard lineup mentioned as a possibility, like in today's Bee:

http://www.sacbee.com/sports/story/2326662.html

And while Kevin Martin's injury absence has allowed for the more effective Udrih-Evans backcourt pairing, Westphal will be forced to re-evalute when his scoring leader returns. (Udrih, Evans and Martin together on the court, perhaps?)

We have all seen the effectiveness of the Tyreke Evans and Beno Udrih pairing. We should rightfully be wary of something that has the potential to be less effective. However, the Kings are injury prone, it's a specter that has followed the team through every year, successful or no. Starting Evans or Martin at the 3 would probably have every other 3 in the league lickin' their chops to lay into the smaller opponent. Do we think it should be attempted? Should this boil down to a matter of time management on behalf of the coaching staff, or is there a viable alternative?

Discuss.

 

[Geoff]

None of those guys can play an SF role for a significant amout of time. I had thought about Kmart as a swingman, but discussion in another thread convinced me it wasn't a smart move.

 

[Löwenherz]

No thanks.

Forcing any one of those guys to regularly match-up with the majority of the Small Forwards in the league is just needlessly inventing weaknesses. KMart and Beno have trouble enough defending guards and as much as I like Evans and we're all excited about him, expecting him to shoulder that burden is plain overkill.

I'd much rather have KMart and Evans in our starting backcourt as long as Martin can accept a new role with the offense going through and being facilitated by Evans. As has been mentioned, that puts the opposing team in the catch-22 of choosing between putting their bigger guard on Martin and watching Evans eat their PG alive, or committing to Evans and let Martin drain threes over a smaller man all night.

Besides, Beno is playing well lately, but I'm not convinced he needs to or should be permanantly promoted to the starting lineup.

 

[Bricklayer]

1) Its Voison.

2) Makng an offhand, ill considered suggestion.

3) About one of her pets.


The argument about Kevin as a SF hasn't changed from the discussion we had last week -- its a dumb idea. The downgrade in strength and toughness by switching from Noc to Kevin at the SF would be so abrupt there would probably be whiplash. The first time Kevin saw he was having to guard LeBron James or Carmelo Anthony in a game he would either a) run shrieking from the building; or b) get hurt.

There remain 4 basic ways the Kevin thing plays out, none comfortable at the moment:

1) Kevin returns, replaces Beno at SG. Risk: Disrupts Reke, loss of passing/ballhandling makes things tougher on everybody else
2) Kevin returns, replaces Noc at SF. Risk: Massive loss of toughness/physicality for a team that finally has them, Kevin dismembered and served in stew by Ron Artest.
3) Kevin traded. Risk: Trading a star, need a return
4) Kevin benched + becomes 6th man. Risk: a video game move. In real life major players have egos, and the inevitable result of this is eventually one of the first 3.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

lol who's gonna guard lebron, melo and the other big SF? wheres our advantage over the other opponent? it would give the opposing team the green light to throw it to their 3 man to abuse us.

voison has been drinking the same cool aid as nellie

 

[fnordius]

Kevin dismembered and served in stew by Ron Artest.

I disagree. I'm thinking Ron's more the BBQ type.

 

[gunks]

1) Its Voison.

2) Makng an offhand, ill considered suggestion.

3) About one of her pets.


The argument about Kevin as a SF hasn't changed from the discussion we had last week -- its a dumb idea. The downgrade in strength and toughness by switching from Noc to Kevin at the SF would be so abrupt there would probably be whiplash. The first time Kevin saw he was having to guard LeBron James or Carmelo Anthony in a game he would either a) run shrieking from the building; or b) get hurt.

There remain 4 basic ways the Kevin thing plays out, none comfortable at the moment:

1) Kevin returns, replaces Beno at SG. Risk: Disrupts Reke, loss of passing/ballhandling makes things tougher on everybody else
2) Kevin returns, replaces Noc at SF. Risk: Massive loss of toughness/physicality for a team that finally has them, Kevin dismembered and served in stew by Ron Artest.
3) Kevin traded. Risk: Trading a star, need a return
4) Kevin benched + becomes 6th man. Risk: a video game move. In real life major players have egos, and the inevitable result of this is eventually one of the first 3.

Honestly I think this is the option with the smallest risk. Kevin is a good guy. Granted his 20 shot attempts per game show a bit of an ego.

But still...

Play him off the bench with the old "shake off the rust excuse", if the team is still rolling (or gets better), ask him if he wants to be our Ginobilli and win a 6th man award. I imagine Kevin's efficiency will go up to what it was a couple seasons ago as well.

 

[Nighthawk1]

How people forget how horrible our defense becomes with Beno and KMart on the floor at the same time - no thanks.

 

[Entity]

I am sure Westphal will figure out a rotation between the 3 that will work out fine. He hasn't failed us thus far in figuring out what works. When Garcia Gets back it will eleviate some ball handling deficiencies we have with the starting backcourt of Martin and Evans. Then Beno, Udoka, Noc off the bench wiht times of Beno and Evans at the same time. I think it will work out ok.

Some of you remember our 4 losses with Evans and Martin in the backcourt. what everybody seems to forget is in that same time Mason and May were also starting and getting a combined 35-40 min of play. Now Mason is gone and for all intense and purpose so is May. I wouldn't rack my brian trying to figure out ways it won't work. Just wait and see.

 

[gunks]

There is that.

There is also Reke's subpar play next to Martin. But OTOH, that could have been due to adjusting to the NBA and he may continue to chug along when Kevin comes back.

There are lots of factors, praise Bejeezus we actually have a good coach now to figure it all out.

 

[Entity]

To further my point. this is how I think it could work out. look at the box score of the Atl game. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Asls.u1mH7h.7y6Y98x_3w6kvLYF?gid=2009110423

Note nearly 10 min of mason and may with 0 production. and Crawford looked like durant and Ariza did against us. Kevin absent in both those games as well. So A guy can go off on us and it not be Kevins fault or the combinations fault. Alot of missed shots in that game by Evans may have cost us that game. but all in all I think we could expect similar lines from that lineup hopefully without all the missed shots by Evans Beno Hawes and JT.

 

[Jkbiker]

I have no problem with Kevin and Reke starting, after all they are our two best backcourt players period.

Beno will be a solid backup with either Kevin or Reke

If any of the three have a bad night out, then you put Cisco In

will be nice to have those options later in the year

Rotate JT, Spence, Ofakor - Bang another 3 man rotation

Cisco, Noc at SF

There is our 8 man rotation

Omri, Ime, Greene, May 9,10,11,12

Sounds awesome to me

 

[fnordius]

I'd imagine that's why the coaching staff seem to be wanting Spencer to hang around the perimeter... they're looking for him to play offensive pivot (Beno substitute), so that they can try putting Kevin back in without killing ball movement.

Definitely not looking good so far, though.

 

[Bricklayer]

Some of you remember our 4 losses with Evans and Martin in the backcourt. what everybody seems to forget is in that same time Mason and May were also starting and getting a combined 35-40 min of play. Now Mason is gone and for all intense and purpose so is May. I wouldn't rack my brian trying to figure out ways it won't work. Just wait and see.

If anything that may make it WORSE when Kevin comes back. By starting two non-scoring roleplayers, Westphal well 1) was unwisely forcing too much offense through Kevin; but 2) was alleviating the shot crunch by having non scorers in the lineup so the scorers, mainly Kevin obviously, could get up their shots. We're idiots around here, so its been a long time since we've done roleplayers, but they are useful chaps for that very reason. All the best teams use lots of them around their stars. And yet even so the offense was seriously bent, with Kevin taking a gargantuan number of hsots and everybody else struggling to get into any sort of rhythm. So now, the roleplayers are gone, and back comes Kevin to a lineup with 4 other guys who like to score...that doesn't work. Too many people wanting to shoot, not enough balls to go around. Something will have to give. There's a reason there's Derek Fishers and Kendrick Perkinses and Anderson Varejaos etc. in the lineups of the really successful teams. There are only so many offensive weapons you can fit in one lineup. Only so many shots to go around.

 

[Entity]

If anything that may make it WORSE when Kevin comes back. By starting two non-scoring roleplayers, Westphal well 1) was unwisely forcing too much offense through Kevin; but 2) was alleviating the shot crunch by having non scorers in the lineup so the scorers, mainly Kevin obviously, could get up their shots. We're idiots around here, so its been a long time since we've done roleplayers, but they are useful chaps for that very reason. All the best teams use lots of them around their stars. And yet even so the offense was seriously bent, with Kevin taking a gargantuan number of hsots and everybody else struggling to get into any sort of rhythm. So now, the roleplayers are gone, and back comes Kevin to a lineup with 4 other guys who like to score...that doesn't work. Too many people wanting to shoot, not enough balls to go around. Something will have to give. There's a reason there's Derek Fishers and Kendrick Perkinses and Anderson Varejaos etc. in the lineups of the really successful teams. There are only so many offensive weapons you can fit in one lineup. Only so many shots to go around.

I point again to the Atl game. Exactly who didn't get there normal amount of shots????? Your telling me how it won't work without actual proof. I am supplying proof in which it did. Explain that to me. Was it an abberation?

attempts
Martin 22
Evans 21
Thompson 15
Beno 11
Noc 10
Hawes 9

 

[fnordius]

I am supplying proof in which it did.

You're supplying one game. Michael Jordan had a 6 point game. Kenny Thomas has had a triple double. One game is very weak "proof" of anything.

 

[Entity]

You're supplying one game. Michael Jordan had a 6 point game. Kenny Thomas has had a triple double. One game is very weak "proof" of anything.

while your reply is funny and all. they only played 5 games in which to get proof from. would you really like me to supply all 5 games worth? I could hell i even chose a loss.

 

[NME]

There is also Reke's subpar play next to Martin. But OTOH, that could have been due to adjusting to the NBA and he may continue to chug along when Kevin comes back.

Playing next to Martin didn't stop him from having a great Game #2 against CP3. Game #3 he turned his ankle, which limited him in #4 and #5. This is an absurd basis for assessing how he'll play next to Martin. It's not like Evans played 30 games with him and 30 without him and there was a clear difference.

 

[OptimusRhyme]

Martin wouldnt be the one defending the SF's if we did do that. It would be Evans. He strong and long enough to guard SF's.

 

[Entity]

Martin wouldnt be the one defending the SF's if we did do that. It would be Evans. He strong and long enough to guard SF's.

Did you see Evans trying to guard Ariza??? It don't work.

Its really simple Evans Martin will start beno will get time from both Udoka will get spot min.

 

[NME]

If anything that may make it WORSE when Kevin comes back. By starting two non-scoring roleplayers, Westphal well 1) was unwisely forcing too much offense through Kevin; but 2) was alleviating the shot crunch by having non scorers in the lineup so the scorers, mainly Kevin obviously, could get up their shots. We're idiots around here, so its been a long time since we've done roleplayers, but they are useful chaps for that very reason.

That works when you're talking about actually decent roleplayers, not a couple of scrubs who are now off the roster/out of the rotation behind KT.

 

[fnordius]

while your reply is funny and all. they only played 5 games in which to get proof from. would you really like me to supply all 5 games worth? I could hell i even chose a loss.

I'd just been looking over the box scores from those games, and don't think you can conclude anything much from them, except that we found ways to lose 4 out of 5, and only won against a very weak team in OT. The one win is kind of freakish too, with us getting outrebounded to the tune of -17, but with Hawes getting 7 assists and 1 TO. And then there was the matter of Kevin's 48 points. How long until we see another game where those 2 guys put up those numbers? Years? Never?

Dissect the aggregate stats of all 5 games if you want, but it's not going to give you very persuasive numbers. And 5 games still isn't enough to be statistically trustworthy.

That's why I haven't said that we couldn't possibly do it with Kevin + Tyreke both on the court, but have treated it as a dubious theory. Maybe it can work, maybe. The coaching staff will definitely try it. But so far, all we have to go on is a really ugly losing streak followed by our best winning streak in years. That's not a promising start for the idea.

 

[kupman]

I started bringing-up this possibility soon after we drafted 'reke. I accept that such an experiment may go down in flames. But, I think that it should be tried. Maybe not starting the game - but tried nonetheless.

I do not see KHurt being the SF in this situation. I see us basically playing without a true SF. Reke would probably guard the other team's SF. Heck, maybe we could even consider 'Reke the SF. He is versatile and strong enough to play wherever and how ever he wants.

We can play the "on paper" game all day. I just think you do not really know until you try it.

 

[Nighthawk1]

Don Nelson where you at??????

 

[swisshh]

The counter argument to the counter argument is that most of the NBA doesn't have 3s that would give Evans problems. Because in this situation, Evans would probably defend the 3. It's still mighty risky, but so is Martin/Evans/Noc.

It would be nice if Cisco was due back by the time Martin is back. His injury sort of screwed up what would have been a more balanced lineup. He can make up for the lack up ball handling, passing and spacing.

You can do:

Combo Guard/Combo Guard
Combo Guard/Point Guard

But Combo Guard/Shooting Guard tends to backfire.

 

[Bricklayer]

Playing next to Martin didn't stop him from having a great Game #2 against CP3. Game #3 he turned his ankle, which limited him in #4 and #5. This is an absurd basis for assessing how he'll play next to Martin. It's not like Evans played 30 games with him and 30 without him and there was a clear difference.

But watching even Reke's Game 2 against CP3, it was clear that he and Kevin were functioning as separate entities. And in that game in particular the separate entity off doing his own thing to the tune of 9-29 should have been giving the ball a lot more to the separate entity dueling with CP3.

The best argument is that it was not only early in the season, but early in Reke's career. But under no circumstances would we want what was happening in the early season, including the New Orleans game, going on in the future. Better to lose Kevin for nothing at all than have him come back and that dysfunctinality resume.