The not blaming Karl 100% thread.

[swisshh]

I don't totally blame Karl. If there is a coaching change then there still needs to be more roster tweaking.

The issue is even if you address the other problems, things aren't fixed because Karl's problems stall up the whole engine. The lengths you would have to go to tweak the roster for Karl would leave you with the Phoenix Suns. All your big talent gone. A weird vibe. Coach likely out after the year anyways. It just doesn't work.

And in order to fix the roster issues, you first must decide what type of team you need to be going down the road. The Karl path is vastly different from the "tweak this Roster" path or the dominant big man path. That's why while I don't blame Karl 100%, I realize there is no light at the end of the tunnel with Karl.

 

[KingsFanatic]

Who knows, maybe if Karl gets fired, he will be secretly saying, "Thank God this nightmare is over. I'm glad to away from this mess! this team doesn't listen to crap!!!"
ya never know...........

 

[hrdboild]

Maybe we just suck

I don't think this is the point you were trying to make, but I would feel a lot better about George Karl as the coach of this team if he gave an interview like that after a game. With Malone you at least knew he took it personally when the other team scored on us and he was working hard to find solutions. With George Karl he'll occasionally comment on the defense if someone asks about it, but he's always seemed more interested in talking about what is or isn't working with the offense. And when you're giving up 109 points per game over the entire season I think the offense is pretty darn close to irrelevant.

 

[ParniValjak]

On the Grant Napear Show, Karl did admit that some games were lost because the team didn't practice late game execution enough, and that it was on him.

What about in game decisions. Against Chicago we are down 3, with not much time remaining where we need a 3 on our possession if we are to have any chance, yet our best 3pt shooter is sitting on the pine.

I listed to his post game pressers and it's all about throwing players under the bust and deflecting any blame.

Does he teach defense? Do we practice defense? His comments after today's game indicate exactly what is wrong with this whole situation. In what universe can you play a good game and allow 128 points in 4 quarters of basketball? If San Antonio did this, Pop would be personally strangling each and every player in that locker room.

 

[gilly420]

It's on the players, they are the ones who quit on us.

 

[ParniValjak]

It's on the players, they are the ones who quit on us.

It's on the coach for not getting the players to buy in. Once the coach loses the players, it's over.

It is clear as daylight, the coach has lost the players.

 

[mac]

It's on the coach for not getting the players to buy in. Once the coach loses the players, it's over.

It is clear as daylight, the coach has lost the players.

It certainly is clear as daylight, but a coach losing his players is not necessarily an indication of him being a poor coach. For one, the fact that our team has unravelled so quickly after that promising stretch shows you the mental weakness of the team. Another thing is the organisational backing. Cousins can be lazy and quit on the game like he did against the Celtics because he knows that ownership is more than willing to fire the coach. What's more, the coach isn't allowed to discipline his star player. What do you think would happen if one of the Spurs stars played like that? What do you think Pop would do if Timmy yelled at him in the locker room? When you have that kind of culture in place where losing is tolerated and players are allowed to quit and coaches will just be rotated like nothing with no repercussions on the players then it's no surprise that the team quits on the coach when they start losing.

Also, the next person who says Malone had the guys playing hard every night and effort was never a question should really go rewatch the games in Malone's first season.

You are right about one thing - it's over. I'll just wait for our next coach to once again lose Cousins and the team so we can all blame him too.

I'm not saying Karl doesn't need to go, or that he's coached well. But the (lack of) resilience of the team following a really good stretch falls on more than just Karl. Players, organisational culture etc all have a part to play in the dysfunction that is the Sacramento Kings.

I'd like us to stop playing the misfit underdogs and find some good character professional guys that will play hard all the time.

 

[ParniValjak]

It certainly is clear as daylight, but a coach losing his players is not necessarily an indication of him being a poor coach. For one, the fact that our team has unravelled so quickly after that promising stretch shows you the mental weakness of the team. Another thing is the organisational backing. Cousins can be lazy and quit on the game like he did against the Celtics because he knows that ownership is more than willing to fire the coach. What's more, the coach isn't allowed to discipline his star player. What do you think would happen if one of the Spurs stars played like that? What do you think Pop would do if Timmy yelled at him in the locker room? When you have that kind of culture in place where losing is tolerated and players are allowed to quit and coaches will just be rotated like nothing with no repercussions on the players then it's no surprise that the team quits on the coach when they start losing.

Also, the next person who says Malone had the guys playing hard every night and effort was never a question should really go rewatch the games in Malone's first season.

You are right about one thing - it's over. I'll just wait for our next coach to once again lose Cousins and the team so we can all blame him too.

I'm not saying Karl doesn't need to go, or that he's coached well. But the (lack of) resilience of the team following a really good stretch falls on more than just Karl. Players, organisational culture etc all have a part to play in the dysfunction that is the Sacramento Kings.

I'd like us to stop playing the misfit underdogs and find some good character professional guys that will play hard all the time.

Simple question, of all the coaches that Cousins has had in his time here, which one of them has got another head coaching job in the NBA?

 

[sdballer]

Simple question, of all the coaches that Cousins has had in his time here, which one of them has got another head coaching job in the NBA?

We don't answer that question or any of the other logical ones about Karl's issues, the players we've had, systems, etc?

No wins=cousins fault.

 

[mac]

Simple question, of all the coaches that Cousins has had in his time here, which one of them has got another head coaching job in the NBA?

That's sort of a chicken and egg question isn't it? How many losing head coaches ever get rehired? It also depends on the market - how many jobs are available and who else is available at the time. And therein lies the problem - what makes you so sure someone like Thibbs wants to come coach this team that hasn't won anything, with players who clearly can quit on their coach at any time and a superstar with a reputation of being hard to work with? George Karl may have done a crap job here, but people will likely look past that and see that Cousins again got a coach fired, this time one with 1000 wins.

How many winning teams boasting supposed superstars would trade their best player for Cousins? Would the Thunder even trade Westbrook for Cousins?

Yes Malone seemed to have the team in the right direction. But if we're seriously going to still sit here and b*tch about how he was the chosen one who could work with Cousins then please count me out. I'm looking forward, not back.

 

[mac]

We don't answer that question or any of the other logical ones about Karl's issues, the players we've had, systems, etc?

No wins=cousins fault.

Please read my original post he was quoting and tell me how you came away with the conclusion no wins = Cousin's fault.

 

[Glenn]

Simple question, of all the coaches that Cousins has had in his time here, which one of them has got another head coaching job in the NBA?

There were also three coaches before Cousins and since Adelman named Musselman, Natt, and Theus. None of them succeeded with the Kings and none have found another head coaching job. I don't know why it is so deadly serious to figure out who is to blame for the last year, the coach or Cousins, but let's toss in these three failures and ponder the quality of the FO.

The easiest argument is to make it an either/or question in which only two entities are considered but in the real world, in the Kings real world, it is more complex than that. Something failed under the three coaches I mentioned and it didn't have anything to do with Cousins.

Since 2006, we have had 8 coaches, 3 GMs, and two owners. I don't have a clue as to what Chris Mullin's job was. It has been a real mess. At this point, I would want us to hire a coach who will last a few years and keep our present GM for awhile also. We need stability. I hope Vlade can be that factor of stability and predictabilty this team needs. I cannot believe he only has a one year contract. It sounds like a set up. How is he to function in a situation where he doesn't know if he has a job next year?

(I hope I am correct about the length of Vlade's contract.)

 

[The Hammer]

What do you think it is? You should be able to tell what my point is by now. Unless you really can't grasp it.

The way arguments work is that you have to actually make them.

I'm sorry you weren't taught this in school, or anywhere else. Good day.

 

[Bricklayer]

You are taking an individual stat and comparing to the same stat for other teams. Team stats and individual stats shouldn't be compared like this. I know that your point is that the kings are much better with demarcus on the floor than with him off. While I agree with this point an apples to apples comparison would have to be done by comparing the diffirential of other players using their team stats with them on and off the floor just like you did with demarcus. I don't know what the results would be. They might farther illustrate how dominate Demarcus is. They also might show he is about as dominate as most other teams best players.

It will further demonstrate how dominant DeMarcus is. Believe me, I've run the numbers before elsewhere.

It makes the stupidity around this franchise all the more teeth grinding.

So, apples to oranges warning: roles matter. Comparing a franchise player's +/- to a roleplayer's is bound to fail, and numbers can move around year to year depending on what idiot is coaching at the moment.

So just comparing Cuz to other franchise players or clear #1s/straws, guys who every night are the main guy for their teams (or in the case of the Clippers and Thunder, one of two):

Curry +28.9 (+22.1/-6.8)
Lebron +17.1 (+10.7/-6.4)
Westbrook +16.6 (+12.5/-4.1)
Paul +16.1 (+10.4/-5.7)
Durant +13.1 (+12.4/-0.7)

Cousins +10.7 (+2.4/-8.3)

Anthony +8.6 (+1.3/-7.3)
Drumond +7.6 (+3.5/-4.1)
George +5.7 (+4.1/-1.6)
Wall +4.9 (-1.3/-6.2)

Leonard +2.5 (+15.4/+12.9)
Lillard +2.2 (+0.5/-1.7)
Harden +2.2 (-0.7/-2.9)
Davis +1.7 (-2.4/-4.1)
Griffin +1.1 (+4.6/+3.5)
Butler -0.4 (-0.3/+0.1)

I don't really think these guys should be directly compared because they are less clearly "the straw" on teams that are collective.s Lowry comes closest, but he's not even the leading scorer:

MGasol +4.4 (+0.4/-4.0)
Nowitzki +7.9 (+2.6/-5.3)
Milsap -2.4 (+1.8/+4.2)
Thomas +2.5 (+5.0/+2.5)
Lowry +7.6 (+6.6/-1/0)


So the 16 true #1 guys, +5 more of the "best of a collective" types. And Cousins stands out there as the last/biggest impact guy before you hit the in prime first ballot HOF quintet. His profile looks most like a suped up version of Melo's this year, as the one guy who can and has to carry an indifferent crew. You will notice too that out of all 21 guys I listed there, Cousins supporting cast is THE worst without him. 21st out of 21. He has to carry an enormous burden just to make us competitive.

 

[ParniValjak]

That's sort of a chicken and egg question isn't it? How many losing head coaches ever get rehired? It also depends on the market - how many jobs are available and who else is available at the time. And therein lies the problem - what makes you so sure someone like Thibbs wants to come coach this team that hasn't won anything, with players who clearly can quit on their coach at any time and a superstar with a reputation of being hard to work with? George Karl may have done a crap job here, but people will likely look past that and see that Cousins again got a coach fired, this time one with 1000 wins.

How many winning teams boasting supposed superstars would trade their best player for Cousins? Would the Thunder even trade Westbrook for Cousins?

Yes Malone seemed to have the team in the right direction. But if we're seriously going to still sit here and b*tch about how he was the chosen one who could work with Cousins then please count me out. I'm looking forward, not back.

It absolutely is not the chicken or the egg question. It is a legitimate question. those coaches that are rated throughout the NBA industry get hired despite losing seasons. Malone had no trouble getting another job because people outside of Sacramento rate his work. They see what he does, they look at his resume and it stacks up. Westphal was washed up when we got him. No one wanted anything to do with him a s a head coach for years. He practically begged for the job just like Karl. Keith Smart was a joke with GSW and continued to be one here. Neither of them could get another head coaching job after Kings and both were lucky to get one with the Kings in the first place because Maloofs were penny pinching. and plase don't come up with job availability bullcrap because every season or off season there are 3-4 head coaching jobs available.

of the coaches that got sacked only one could be attributed to Cousins and that is Westphal. Smart was sacked by the new ownership group, Malone was much loved by entire team, not just Cousins. Even Landry said he is the best coach this team has had since Adelman. Corbin was a fall guy and was never going to get another job in the NBA anyway given how bad he was in Utah. George Karl got fired immediately after winning COY and has history of throwing players and franchises under the bus everywhere he has gone. He has had a falling out with a star player EVERYWHERE he has gone. He also practically begged for the job because he knew it was his last chnce and he wanted to get top 5 wins of all time.

As for Thibs, he has been public in talking up Cousins and Rondo. he has praised them numerously. Now does that mean he wants to come here? No it doesn't but given his existing relationship with the"big 3" on this team there would at least be some interest there for him. He knows better than any other head coaching candidate what DeMarcus Cousins is like. there is mutual respect there. Again it doesn't mean he wants in but it means there is interest. There will ALWAYS be interest in a head coaching job....there are only 30 of those going around and they happen to pay pretty darn well.

And for the record, I couldn't give a flyinf **** what Karl muppetts, uneducated fools in our fan base or the national media that can't spell Sacramento let alone has watched our games tells us about Cousins. For all I care they can kiss my you know what! All I care about is that we do not waste Cousins' prime years buy ****ing up a cocahing appointment after coaching appointment. we ****ed up with Mike Malone firing, everyone with a hint of intelligence should know that. The NBA industry knows it too, hence why he got another job a few months later and is doing a fine job with a lot less talented team than our Kings. It's because he knows what he is doing. He knows the proven forumla and is not getting carried away withwhat is in. He just does it! I want a coach like that. None of these muppets anymore please!

 

[Glenn]

There is another factor not discussed and that is Vivek. Vivek and a bunch of others bought this team and Vivek had some ideas that he thought might revolutionize basketball. We now hope that he has learned his lesson and is staying away from basketball matters. My question is what might he be doing? He wants a game with pace. He got that by hiring Karl. Unfortunately he then gave a 1 year contract to a person with lots of titles and one of them is GM. ONE YEAR.

Vivek has said that he periodically likes to shake things up a bit. I do not know the exact quote but perhaps we are being naive in thinking he doesn't have his hand print over some of the things that are going on. We don't know what he is telling Vlade except he hasn't extended his contract despite a mighty fine job of acquiring decent players who could play around Cousins. I hope Vivek doesn't think he can assess Vlade's job after one year. We don't know what he is telling Karl. We don't know what he is telling the players. I can just about guarantee you all that he is doing something. I hope it is good but his track record has not been good.

There are many factors at play. I can easily imagine that Vivek thinks Vlade has been a complete failure. the team is losing and Vlade did not acquire players who could play with pace. I hope he is happy with Vlade but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[ParniValjak]

There is another factor not discussed and that is Vivek. Vivek and a bunch of others bought this team and Vivek had some ideas that he thought might revolutionize basketball. We now hope that he has learned his lesson and is staying away from basketball matters. My question is what might he be doing? He wants a game with pace. He got that by hiring Karl. Unfortunately he then gave a 1 year contract to a person with lots of titles and one of them is GM. ONE YEAR.

Vivek has said that he periodically likes to shake things up a bit. I do not know the exact quote but perhaps we are being naive in thinking he doesn't have his hand print over some of the things that are going on. We don't know what he is telling Vlade except he hasn't extended his contract despite a mighty fine job of acquiring decent players who could play around Cousins. I hope Vivek doesn't think he can assess Vlade's job after one year. We don't know what he is telling Karl. We don't know what he is telling the players. I can just about guarantee you all that he is doing something. I hope it is good but his track record has not been good.

There are many factors at play. I can easily imagine that Vivek thinks Vlade has been a complete failure. the team is losing and Vlade did not acquire players who could play with pace. I hope he is happy with Vlade but I wouldn't bet on it.

It's certainly a valid point. One thing though is that Vivek is not quite as in your face as he has been in years past. He seems to have pulled back from the limelight a bit and it would appear he has learnt some hard lessons along the way, especially with Malone's firing. With that in mind I can't help but think that Vivek will back Vlade in. One of the reasons is that he knows what Vlade's status is in Sacramento and just how much he is loved by the fan base. If he burns Vlade here, there is a good chance that he pisses off the fan base and I am not sure that he wants to go there again given what happened after Malone's firing.

 

[KingsFanGER]

I don't think Cousins is the one to be blamed, when Karl is getting fired. At least he shouldn't be blamed for it alone.
He tried to adapt to our new playstyle and made it work at times. Yes he is coasting on D sometimes, but is still an above average defender on this team.
I'm not a numbers guy, but I think the weaknesses of this team are transition D, pick&roll D and general perimeter D (aka not close enough to jumpshooters).
Now Cousins shouldn't be blamed for the inability of our guards to stay close to their man, wether this is due to schemes or lack of effort.
He is not the sole reason our transition and pick&roll D is terrible.
But our weaknesses raise some questions:

With our 6'11 center shouldering the biggest load on offense, it might be difficult to set up a solid transition D. The way Cousins is playing he generates a lot of momentum, when driving to the front of the rim. There also is lot's of contact involved everytime. Cousins often ends on the floor or behind the basket when driving and from there it's an uphill battle to catch his man in transition. Now his complaining 0nly makes things worse, but even without it, it seems to be difficult to get back in time and play 5vs5. Teams with a perimeter approach on offense, usually have their center involved in the high pick&roll and less athletic guys like Bogut often stay near the 3 pt line on offense, only to shorten the distance for them in case the opponent breaks out in transition. We can't do that, when we want Cousins playing more in the paint.
Now when he is efficient, this shouldn't be a problem. But when he has those 3/15, 4 TO games it potentially kills your offense and defense at the same time.
So question is, if it's possible to built a team around Cousins with him as the main offensive weapon, or if this will hinder the ability of the team to defend in transition.

The other area of concern seems to be the pick&roll defense. Scoring PG's are having field days against the Kings. And some of it is related with DMC , who usually stays in the paint and is reluctant to get out all the way to the perimeter. Again I think effort is a part of it, but also the fact, that Cousins knows very well, that he is very prone to pick up fouls when trying to contain quick guards. And he has learned the hard way, that this team can't win with him in foul trouble. Unlike Ezeli, Bogut, Whiteside or Howard he is carrying this team on offense and needs to balance his approach between defense AND offense.
So once again the question might be asked, if we can be successful, when Cousins is the one player everything depends on. Our defense falls apart as much as our offense does, when he sits on the bench. We are a worse team in every facet of the game.
From my point of view, this is asked too much from a big man in todays NBA.

 

[Albatros]

It's never just 100% one persons fault, unless there is something borderline criminal going on.

It's probably 79% Karl/System though.

 

[Im Still Ballin]

Cuz is shooting 36% on 3.5 threes a game. The long ball transformation has been a success.

 

[QoooooQ]

It's Vivek's ass-first-up-the-stairs leadership more than anything. He hires Malone, then hires comrade Alessandrov who wants Malone gone and hires Karl, then he fires Alessandro just after the coaching hire. Supposedly Divac was a good replacement, but we don't really know that yet because we're still stuck with one foot on the previous floor.

The decision to hire Karl was made either by Vivek himself or by the GM he soon fired, and it looks even more rash now that it did a year ago. We're falling out of the playoff picture with a pretty good roster because our team owner has not figured out the A-B-C of sports team ownership in three years.

 

[KingMilz]

Despite being a terrible fit Karl has a higher or equal winning % than perfect fit Malone who's legendary status was earned during a 9-6 run that Karl just matched. So Karl at his worst and not adjusting to the roster is as good according to w/l as Malone. Malone also had a future All Star in Isaiah Thomas who he decided to bring off the bench for a while and his offense which was often running the ball through REGGIE EVANS was something to behold.

Seriously we all watched the same games when Malone coached here we sucked than and the team gave up plenty and we suck now one 9-6 run doesn't change that we under his tenure sucked and that mythical level of greatness was matched by Karl 2 weeks ago who is on his death bed basically and really doesn't care/have the energy to teach this group anything.

I'm sure we could go back to plenty of game threads when MM was here and see the exact same comments we are saying about the team now in terms of no effort/terrible D/low IQ/questionable rotations and coaching moves.

 

[ESP47]

Despite being a terrible fit Karl has a higher or equal winning % than perfect fit Malone who's legendary status was earned during a 9-6 run that Karl just matched. So Karl at his worst and not adjusting to the roster is as good according to w/l as Malone. Malone also had a future All Star in Isaiah Thomas who he decided to bring off the bench for a while and his offense which was often running the ball through REGGIE EVANS was something to behold.

Seriously we all watched the same games when Malone coached here we sucked than and the team gave up plenty and we suck now one 9-6 run doesn't change that we under his tenure sucked and that mythical level of greatness was matched by Karl 2 weeks ago who is on his death bed basically and really doesn't care/have the energy to teach this group anything.

I'm sure we could go back to plenty of game threads when MM was here and see the exact same comments we are saying about the team now in terms of no effort/terrible D/low IQ/questionable rotations and coaching moves.

The roster Karl has right now is so much better than anything Malone had. You can't even compare the two.

Isaiah Thomas didn't fit our roster, period. He's surrounded by excellent perimeter defenders in Bradley, Smart and Crowder. We had nothing of the sort and he fittingly got torched on defense.

 

[King Baller]

Well there is nothing to do but try something different. The Kings need a coach who will stress defense. Hiring a coach like this was Vivek's first move when he took over. No need to rehash that mess but Vivek's first instinct to hire Malone was a good one. Too bad he then hired the two stooges who messed it up and sold the "pace" concept.

The Kings need DEFENSE! If Thibs will come here you do that. If not you find a Young Coach who will stress defense. Perhaps Corliss is that guy.

 

[KingMilz]

The roster Karl has right now is so much better than anything Malone had. You can't even compare the two.

Isaiah Thomas didn't fit our roster, period. He's surrounded by excellent perimeter defenders in Bradley, Smart and Crowder. We had nothing of the sort and he fittingly got torched on defense.

O please both rosters are terrible, Thomas didn't fit our roster....enough excuses please. You can't compare Demarcus to legit HOF big men but yet this forum does all the time while discouting every varaible. Why didnt IT fit our roster but Cousins and Gay did?

 

[King Baller]

O please both rosters are terrible, Thomas didn't fit our roster....enough excuses please. You can't compare Demarcus to legit HOF big men but yet this forum does all the time while discouting every varaible. Why didnt IT fit our roster but Cousins and Gay did?

The current roster is pretty good on the offensive side but is missing wing defenders for the other side of the court. Vlade did go after them, one opted for Dallas and one did not pass the team physical.

The problem is that the current coaching staff has put zero emphasis on defense. Defense begins way back with the early summer workouts and is built is training camp before the season begins. From the outset of this season the defense has been horrid. Yet they still run the same collapse on the paint and run at the perimeter style that has failed all year.

You are complaining about the roster? I think the current roster is a .500 club with the right coach.

 

[ESP47]

O please both rosters are terrible, Thomas didn't fit our roster....enough excuses please. You can't compare Demarcus to legit HOF big men but yet this forum does all the time while discouting every varaible. Why didnt IT fit our roster but Cousins and Gay did?

We had Isaiah, Cousins, Gay and a bunch of junk that year. Who else was on that team that was worth a damn? Reggie Evans, declining Thornton, Outlaw, McCallum, Landry, JT?

You can't even compare them to Cousins, Gay, Rondo, Collison, Kofous, Belinelli, WCS and Casspi. McLemore and Acy are also much better players at this point than they were back then.

 

[KingMilz]

The current roster is pretty good on the offensive side but is missing wing defenders for the other side of the court. Vlade did go after them, one opted for Dallas and one did not pass the team physical.

The problem is that the current coaching staff has put zero emphasis on defense. Defense begins way back with the early summer workouts and is built is training camp before the season begins. From the outset of this season the defense has been horrid. Yet they still run the same collapse on the paint and run at the perimeter style that has failed all year.

You are complaining about the roster? I think the current roster is a .500 club with the right coach.

500. with the right coach based on what the 9-6 run we has last year? The thing is these guys on the team wilt at any sign of struggle I right now have a hard time believing that, we are building on a foundation of decent talent combined with poor IQ/laziness that's not going to get you far long term.

I would love nothing more than for us to hire Thibbs, but I literally have to see it to belevie it. I've seen the exact same thing for a near decade now we are in a horrible stagflation era where we have seen zero growth and we constantly inflate how good this team could be if we had a different coach/different pg/more defense/more 3 point shooting and the list goes on.

 

[CurseOfTheSalmons]

Karl has a better winning percentage in Sac then Malone did even while running a "system" that doesn't fit to you guys. I'd give full control to Karl, trade DC. This isn't Karl's first rodeo when a star player and he butted heads (Melo). And Karl won 57 games without his star player in his system. Played with the right personal, Karl's system will win you games. DC doesn't fit, so I'd rather ride with a coach with an actual winning percentage throughout his career, and not give power to an injury prone head case with a losing record in Sac.

Member since: Thursday, February 4, 2016

First Post:

Kings are 21-28, yet it's "all" the coaches fault lol

http://i.imgur.com/WO1wdGI.png

 

[Big Cuz 15]

so... you'd trade a legitimate top 10 player just entering his prime in demarcus cousins to bring in "the right personnel" for an aging and ailing head coach who may not have the health or stamina to continue coaching effectively beyond the next couple of seasons? man... talk about shortsighted...

only concerned with filling up the new arena on opening night.