The Lockout has arrived.
- Thread starter rainmaker
- Start date
Here's an ESPN article explaining the last minute offer by the league, and some optiimisim.
http://bleacherreport.com/tb/bbmFW
Basicly, Stern made a statement about the leagues offer, and the union is spitting all over itself trying to explain its position after the rejection. Score one for Stern in the PR battle. Personally I don't care who wins this thing. Just get it done!
By the way, I'm currently down in southern baja. Staying in a beautiful place whose name I can't pronounce. Eventually heading to La Paz. So if you call me a name and I don't respond, its because I can't. I'm back to two tin cans and a string in some of these places.
http://bleacherreport.com/tb/bbmFW
Basicly, Stern made a statement about the leagues offer, and the union is spitting all over itself trying to explain its position after the rejection. Score one for Stern in the PR battle. Personally I don't care who wins this thing. Just get it done!
By the way, I'm currently down in southern baja. Staying in a beautiful place whose name I can't pronounce. Eventually heading to La Paz. So if you call me a name and I don't respond, its because I can't. I'm back to two tin cans and a string in some of these places.
If that is true, why do the players do it? They are already millionares playing a child's game. When you have millions, do you want to take a big risk for multi-millions when the risk is you could end up with nothing? It's one thing when you have nothing and take a risk; it's entirely another when you have everything and take a risk of losing everything. I still haven't heard a reasonable argument for decertification.
To answer the question above, its the only arrow left the players have. The owners have the hammer. They can cancel the season. The lawsuit is the players way of saying, "Oh yeah! We'll get that money back, and more, and burn down all of the limits on salaries." The problem is - at this stage in the game - as soon as they press the start button on the nuclear option, the season is gone, because there isn't enough time to put it back together.
The owners have come to 50/50, where we knew this would end up. They gave the players the right to opt out in year 7, one year after the new TV deal. The really draconian stuff – roll backs of existing contract, non-guaranteed contracts, and team hard caps are all off the table. After years of posturing, the owners made the offer everybody knew was coming and it was enough to get a deal done.
The owners are going to knock a year off the contracts and raise the luxury tax. And they will harden the cap some. Again we all know this. The only questions remaining are how much is chopped off the MLE, how much do they limit sign and trades; and how much do the limit the Bird rights. That’s pretty much it. They are pretty far apart on those items, but they could easily meet in the middle on those matters, because it only impacts which players make the 50% of BRI – not how much money is earned. Thus, the players aren’t going to forgo a lot of checks to fight over the size of MLE contracts which aren’t being paid due to the lockout.
Like the Hollywood writers, the players’ union is going to cost themselves a lot of money for no good reason.
Yes, players – you used to make 57%. But everybody has known that this was headed to 50/50, a year shorter contracts, and a slightly harder cap. You could have made that deal in September, yesterday, or today.
Moreover, there is no question that – after the dust settles from the season being canceled in January, the players will have to take 50% plus all of the system changes that the owners want sometime between May and July 2012. That’s exactly what happened in the NHL. The players thumbed their nose at the owner’s last offer, watched in horror and shock as a season went down in flames, and then took the same deal. Same thing with the writers strike.
Instead, the players are prepared to flush money down the toilet based upon the false assumption that the owners aren’t prepare to loose games and a significantly better offer is coming.
Some owners will loose profits, but a lot won’t. And some of the owners would sacrifice a year of profits to lockdown a much firmer cap for solid business reasons.
And the NBA has made it clear for months that, while they felt “spendy” yesterday to save the season, the offer could get a lot worse. Therefore, the system changes could be more significant in November and December.
With the 50/50 offer, the owners now have: the majority of the public on their side, all of the leverage, and time on their side. The game is over players and you lost. Time to take your lumps.
The owners have come to 50/50, where we knew this would end up. They gave the players the right to opt out in year 7, one year after the new TV deal. The really draconian stuff – roll backs of existing contract, non-guaranteed contracts, and team hard caps are all off the table. After years of posturing, the owners made the offer everybody knew was coming and it was enough to get a deal done.
The owners are going to knock a year off the contracts and raise the luxury tax. And they will harden the cap some. Again we all know this. The only questions remaining are how much is chopped off the MLE, how much do they limit sign and trades; and how much do the limit the Bird rights. That’s pretty much it. They are pretty far apart on those items, but they could easily meet in the middle on those matters, because it only impacts which players make the 50% of BRI – not how much money is earned. Thus, the players aren’t going to forgo a lot of checks to fight over the size of MLE contracts which aren’t being paid due to the lockout.
Like the Hollywood writers, the players’ union is going to cost themselves a lot of money for no good reason.
Yes, players – you used to make 57%. But everybody has known that this was headed to 50/50, a year shorter contracts, and a slightly harder cap. You could have made that deal in September, yesterday, or today.
Moreover, there is no question that – after the dust settles from the season being canceled in January, the players will have to take 50% plus all of the system changes that the owners want sometime between May and July 2012. That’s exactly what happened in the NHL. The players thumbed their nose at the owner’s last offer, watched in horror and shock as a season went down in flames, and then took the same deal. Same thing with the writers strike.
Instead, the players are prepared to flush money down the toilet based upon the false assumption that the owners aren’t prepare to loose games and a significantly better offer is coming.
Some owners will loose profits, but a lot won’t. And some of the owners would sacrifice a year of profits to lockdown a much firmer cap for solid business reasons.
And the NBA has made it clear for months that, while they felt “spendy” yesterday to save the season, the offer could get a lot worse. Therefore, the system changes could be more significant in November and December.
With the 50/50 offer, the owners now have: the majority of the public on their side, all of the leverage, and time on their side. The game is over players and you lost. Time to take your lumps.
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I think we are mostly in agreement, though from what I can glean above you may believe the players will decertify out of irrationality. I don't. The players are blowing smoke; they are in a very weak position; they don't have negotiation leverage; hence, their only recourse is the improbable and the unreasonable position of saying they are going to risk blowing up the machine that made them millions. Why? Because they're pissed and, well, just because....they're pissed. After they've talked to mom, and the brothers and sisters, uncles and aunts, and the hanger-on-ers of their gravy train, (as well as their accountants and financial advisers), they'll bow to reason.
Yeah, this latest article on ESPN doesn't make it sound like the players want to pursue decertification at all, it's mostly an agent ploy. Some players are even threatening to fire their agents if the agents continue to push decertification. http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7063236/nba-labor-agents-meeting-discuss-move-lockout-sources-say
Listened to an interview with Carmichael Dave and SI's Chris Manux, Manucks, Maniks(sp)?,no idea how to spell his name. Anyway, he's been in contact with a number of players, and many think a 50/50 BRI split is a very fair place to begin, and continue negotiations. The players who are against it, are the ones with millions already put away. He said the majority of NBA players, think that is fair enough, and they do not want to hold out, and don't want to desertify either.
He also said the 50/50 offer, was not an official proposal, and that is why the players reacted the way they did. They were furious about what Stern said afterwards, because it wasn't presented as an official offer. I got the impression, many players accept 50/50 as a starting point.
Doesn't think a deal is far off, but is shocked no one is meeting right now. They should be working around the clock, because both sides are much closer then they were previously. Thinks we'll tip off in mid-Dec.
He also said the 50/50 offer, was not an official proposal, and that is why the players reacted the way they did. They were furious about what Stern said afterwards, because it wasn't presented as an official offer. I got the impression, many players accept 50/50 as a starting point.
Doesn't think a deal is far off, but is shocked no one is meeting right now. They should be working around the clock, because both sides are much closer then they were previously. Thinks we'll tip off in mid-Dec.
I don't recall saying anything about their importance. I was just speaking for myself, saying that i personally wouldn't miss them much and i think the NBA would be a better product if it was less star focused. I understand that lots of other fans are more star driven, I just don't share that preference.
I’m not saying there shouldn’t be any stars. Heck, even if you wanted to you couldn’t eliminate stars. The more skilled, exciting, etc. players are naturally going to command a bigger salary and a higher degree of fame, that’s just how life works.
What I’m getting at and what I think is damaging to the league is when the stars yield all or most of the power, get all or most of the attention, always or almost always get their way, etc.
From the sound of it, this lockout is currently being prolonged predominantly because the bigger egos among the players feel their pride and value is being insulted. It sucks that we the fans may miss a season, all the players who want to play may miss a season, and the thousands who the NBA employs may miss a season all because some players feel insulted by a 50/50 split.
Derrick Fisher himself said it isn’t about the money. The owners have backed off the hard cap and elimination of guaranteed contracts. It’s time to put egos and pride aside, accept the BRI% the owners are offering and get on with the fricking season.
If they’re not willing to do that, then that’s where I’d say good riddance to the players who don’t think the offer is good enough and let the league go on with the ones who do think it’s good enough. The others would come crawling back eventually, I guarantee.
I’m not saying there shouldn’t be any stars. Heck, even if you wanted to you couldn’t eliminate stars. The more skilled, exciting, etc. players are naturally going to command a bigger salary and a higher degree of fame, that’s just how life works.
What I’m getting at and what I think is damaging to the league is when the stars yield all or most of the power, get all or most of the attention, always or almost always get their way, etc.
From the sound of it, this lockout is currently being prolonged predominantly because the bigger egos among the players feel their pride and value is being insulted. It sucks that we the fans may miss a season, all the players who want to play may miss a season, and the thousands who the NBA employs may miss a season all because some players feel insulted by a 50/50 split.
Derrick Fisher himself said it isn’t about the money. The owners have backed off the hard cap and elimination of guaranteed contracts. It’s time to put egos and pride aside, accept the BRI% the owners are offering and get on with the fricking season.
If they’re not willing to do that, then that’s where I’d say good riddance to the players who don’t think the offer is good enough and let the league go on with the ones who do think it’s good enough. The others would come crawling back eventually, I guarantee.
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I agree with this pretty much in totality. The star system also insures that the big stars get a disproportionate amount of money. There is no star who has to worry about money for the rest of their lives but many smaller names can be in trouble as they have no other skill.
It is not about the money as most players have little knowledge of how much they have or how much they will need to live a "comfortable" life. Ego is the issue. Whose salary is biggest is an ego issue and not a monetary issue. Who's got the biggest?
If stars are balking at agreeing to a little less money, it is probably because they want the biggest whatever for years after they retire.
I actually have nothing against ALL players making enough money so they never have to work again. As it is, the Pooh Jeters of the world HAVE to worry.
When players can jump to a team at a limited salary because they already are rich beyond their means, something is askew. The fact that this tends to load up the great teams with aging yet still valuable vets is a side issue of this that galls me. Maybe I'd feel diffferent if they flocked our way.
Bottom line: I have compassion for a lot of players but not for the stars. Unfortunately stars have a lot of power and influence.
It is not about the money as most players have little knowledge of how much they have or how much they will need to live a "comfortable" life. Ego is the issue. Whose salary is biggest is an ego issue and not a monetary issue. Who's got the biggest?
If stars are balking at agreeing to a little less money, it is probably because they want the biggest whatever for years after they retire.
I actually have nothing against ALL players making enough money so they never have to work again. As it is, the Pooh Jeters of the world HAVE to worry.
When players can jump to a team at a limited salary because they already are rich beyond their means, something is askew. The fact that this tends to load up the great teams with aging yet still valuable vets is a side issue of this that galls me. Maybe I'd feel diffferent if they flocked our way.
Bottom line: I have compassion for a lot of players but not for the stars. Unfortunately stars have a lot of power and influence.
his offer – measured against our current system which guarantees us 57 percent of BRI – shifts an average of $185 million per year to the owners’ side, for a total of $1.1 billion over six years.
Here's the problem. It's not the current system. That system expired July 1st. The old system was around for a stronger economy. Yet, in every industry lately, people have had to take pay cuts. In our lives, what we made 5 years ago, means nothing. Different economy. Why does Fisher think the union should still be guaranteed 57%? That system no longer applies.
Here's the problem. It's not the current system. That system expired July 1st. The old system was around for a stronger economy. Yet, in every industry lately, people have had to take pay cuts. In our lives, what we made 5 years ago, means nothing. Different economy. Why does Fisher think the union should still be guaranteed 57%? That system no longer applies.
Fisher is an idiot. The original proposed deal WAS for 50-50 with the eventual drop down to 47%. But they then got the heads from both parties to meet and proposed an even 50-50 split without the eventual drop down and wanted both parties to retreat to their respective meeting rooms and the players quickly came out and said the offer wasn't acceptable. Not sure what's going on in the players' heads.
Agreed, anyone siding with the players truly doesn't understand economics nor markets. Why do 7 and 8 figured salary basketball players need a union anyways? The owners assume all the risks of doing business and players reap a fully guaranteed contract with no risk involved. It's like government work on steroids. If they want a freer market system, then they need to let loose of the guaranteed money, because their is no guaranteed income in a truly free market.
The only problem with that is 50-50 doesn't seem to be on the table anymore, at least thats what Stern says.
If this goes on past next week I bet it will be at least another month, since then the owners are really going to want to get a good deal(their 53-47 deal with a hard cap) players will probably have to accept it or risk losing a season and I doubt the players have saved enough for a year.
If this goes on past next week I bet it will be at least another month, since then the owners are really going to want to get a good deal(their 53-47 deal with a hard cap) players will probably have to accept it or risk losing a season and I doubt the players have saved enough for a year.
Stupid players and owners. Ugh.
Latest is there is NO meeting scheduled before the monday deadline of canceling games. Word is, that I'm seeing on ESPN, is that the owners now will NOT meet with the union until they agree to a 50/50 split beforehand.
So, unless some miracle develops in the next 24-48 hours, we're missing games, and the sides aren't meeting. I love the NBA more then any other sport, but they're doing a good job at testing my patience.It's one thing to put the time in, and meet, and not come to a deal. It's another, to walk away from the table,and not meet at all, with the deadline looming, and the perception both sides were closer then ever before.
Why am I supposed to feel bad for either side, when as a fan, I can barely afford decent tickets as it is?
Latest is there is NO meeting scheduled before the monday deadline of canceling games. Word is, that I'm seeing on ESPN, is that the owners now will NOT meet with the union until they agree to a 50/50 split beforehand.
So, unless some miracle develops in the next 24-48 hours, we're missing games, and the sides aren't meeting. I love the NBA more then any other sport, but they're doing a good job at testing my patience.It's one thing to put the time in, and meet, and not come to a deal. It's another, to walk away from the table,and not meet at all, with the deadline looming, and the perception both sides were closer then ever before.
Why am I supposed to feel bad for either side, when as a fan, I can barely afford decent tickets as it is?
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But I guess there's no point meeting if they can't agree on anything. Clearly the owners feel that 50/50 is their best offer and is a fair deal. In any case, the players are never going to be losing money. Losing money in the sense that they're making losses. If you're a businessman you need to make profits or you're not going to stay in business very long. There comes a point where if you go past it you're going to guarantee yourself losses, and the owners clearly feel that this is the point.
I'm on the owners side on this because frankly I'm not buying into the players and their "not just for us but for future generations" bull****. Give me a break, you're earning millions of dollars to work less hours than a normal blue collar worker. I'm also very very against the fact that the head honcho in all these discussions is Derek Fisher. How many years does Derek Fisher have left to play? And the stars? Please they are guaranteed employment in any league and team. If I were a young player I'd rather these old bags shut their mouths and let me start playing before my body becomes old and slow like theirs.
I'm on the owners side on this because frankly I'm not buying into the players and their "not just for us but for future generations" bull****. Give me a break, you're earning millions of dollars to work less hours than a normal blue collar worker. I'm also very very against the fact that the head honcho in all these discussions is Derek Fisher. How many years does Derek Fisher have left to play? And the stars? Please they are guaranteed employment in any league and team. If I were a young player I'd rather these old bags shut their mouths and let me start playing before my body becomes old and slow like theirs.
So I guess the latest is that the owners won't meet again until the players accept 50/50 and the players have balked at that. i can't believe these clowns (the players) are pushing it this far. I'm really afraid that what's going to happen is that half or all of the season will be cancelled. But that won't even be the worst part. the worst part is that by the time the moron players have had enough of a reality check to come crawling back, it's going to be too late. They'll have to accept a hard-cap at that point. Exactly like what happened in hockey. You'd think they'd be able to look at the NHL precedent and learn from it. Heck, aren't some of the NBA owners the same owners who cancelled the entire NHL season?
Thsi was interesting on just how dumb missing games is financially:
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32334/the-player-salaries-lost-to-a-lockout
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32334/the-player-salaries-lost-to-a-lockout
Good news. Sides are meeting tonight in an unexpected meeting.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7080905/nba-lockout-sides-meet-11th-hour-attempt-report-says
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7080905/nba-lockout-sides-meet-11th-hour-attempt-report-says