The Lockout has arrived.

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
I still favor a hard cap. No cap exemptions whatsoever. It's simple and it's fair. All teams are on equal footing. The big markets will always have that big market appeal advantage whatever system you use. But they won't be able to outspend everybody and "buy" a championship. If players want to play for a big market or championship team, that's fine, just take a big paycut.
The hard cap will just insure that the teams with built in advantages always win. That's why I suggested a slightly modified version that lets you designate 3 or 4 Bird/franchise guys w/ 4 years of tenure at a reduced cap hit - basically giving a big but not unlimited cap advantage to teams to protect long term assets. But that's it - no MLEs, no minimum contracts above the cap, no 125% of the contract trades and you still have to manage the Bird/franchise guys within the cap structure. And despite the hypothetical example I gave earlier being a bit confusing its actually far, far less complicated than the current system.

One other thing I would do behind the scenes is allow teams the option of paying their players' state and local taxes without a cap hit.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Your never going to create a totally even playing field. The big markets will always be the big markets and everything thats attached to it. The only way is to nullinfiy the money advantage as much as possible. Obviously, the big markets have more of it. So, all you can do is restrict how much they can spend, and keep the amount reasonable, and also doable by every team in the NBA. If a team can't keep up with the rest of the league financially, then maybe new ownership is required. Its the reasonable part of the deal that the NBA is proposing that I disagree with.

To install a hard cap of 40 to 45 million just doesn't seem very reasonable to me. Obviously it doesn't seem very reasonable to the Players Association either. Wade and LeBron would take up around 30 mil of a 40 mil cap all by themselves. Hell, just about every team in the league would automaticly be over the cap. If I'm a player and you want to convince me of a hard cap, then make the hard cap 65 mil. At the very least, start the cap where it left off last season which was around 58 to 59 million. If you want to throw a franchise player exception in, I can go along with that.

The big cities will still have the drawing power, but no longer will have the advantage of being able to spend whatever they want. It will all come down to management. I see no disadvantage for the small markets. Yes, if LA has 5 mil to spend and the Kings have 5 mil to spend, advantage LA!. But it still comes down to managing your money properly, to be in that position. The same idiots will still be out there making the same wrong decisions. The only thing the new rules will do, is limit to some extent just how bad those decisions can be. Teams with good management, like the Spurs and the Jazz, and hopefully the Kings, should always remain competitive, and maybe championship competitive.

Eventually, it will be hard for one team to afford two superstars on their roster. Which I believe is one of the goals of the owners. Spread the wealth so to speak. Once you get one, thats where the franchise tag would come in handy. OK, I'm done rambling. I'm sure that if both organizations just took notes from this fourm, a deal would follow shortly.
 
I honestly think that revenue sharing between teams is best way for smaller markets to complete. The T.V. contracts that the Lakrs and Knicks have make any other contracts the other teams have a joke. i would also get rid of Sign and trades, It is killing smaller markets the advantage of offering thier players more money. Whenn the players knows they can thier max money and years through a sign and trade.
 
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I honestly think that revenue sharing between teams is best way for smaller markets to complete. The T.V. contracts that the Lakrs and Knicks have make any other contracts the other teams have a joke. i would also get rid of Sign and trades, It is killing smaller markets the advantage of offering thier players more money. Whenn the players knows they can thier max money and years through a sign and trade.
This is where I agree and disagree with the players. I think revenue sharing needs to be addressed but unlike the players I think it is only part of the solution and they need to make more serious concessions than they have been willing.

I think a fair portion but not a majority of all local TV revenue should be put in a pool to be divided equally among the teams. I think the league needs both the strong big market teams and stable small to mid-sized markets that if managed correctly have a reasonable chance to compete. The league currently has the first part but the second part is currently the exception and not the norm. I had suggested somewhere a percentage of 40% of local TV revenue but that is probable too high.

I probably wouldn't completely eliminate the sign and trades but limit them in terms of bird rights or how much of the bird rights are transferable.
 
Nope. Not the way it has always been (started in the 70s). Not even the way it always is now (see, Free Agency, Restricted). Now it would be nice if the players could be trusted to do what's best for the league, but of course they can't. They can be trusted to do what's best for them. When that no longer coincides with what's best for the league, it behooves you as a league to put a stop to it. You aren't running the league for the players' sakes. You are running it for your own sake, and for your customers' sakes. When free agents started running roughshod over the league a dozen years ago, there was a lockout, and out of the lockout came the concept of a maxium salary to preceisely prevent free agents from signing wherever they wanted to for however much they demanded. Good for the players? No. Good for the league? Absolutely. This is no different. Now you have a late breaking trend that is heavily damaging franchises that are already behind the 8 ball when it comes to competing. That is not good for the league or its constituent owners, or its constituent fans. So now, just like last time, would be a great time to slap down a new rule to again restrict free agency, not becuase its good for the players, but because its good for the league.
This is bananas.

This is NOT a late breaking trend. If you think about it without a predisposition, you quickly realize that players leave their home teams all the time. Even the best players have done it down throughout the decades. The idea that this is all of a sudden a new and unanticipated problem that has never surfaced in the NBA before is simply false.

Your example of free agents signing for ridiculous amounts of money and the changes that came afterward speaks to the fact that players have always gone where the money is. The league put an end to some of those practices because there were no cost constraints, and you'd quickly have an MLB type atmosphere in which the big money/big market teams could grossly skew the landscape in their favor. These changes have been good for the league, and it has likewise benefited the players in that a healthy league allows them to get paid obscene amounts of money to play a game and be famous.

However you cut it, general consensus has become that the appropriate response to these recent events (not that they have never happened before, but that everyone is upset about HOW they happened) is to further restrict free agency, as if free agency is the problem. In reality, it's NOT the problem. The problem is that teams that wish to and have the means to can spend above and beyond the so-called salary cap to retain talent and improve their rosters, and even to outright sign new players (via exceptions and S&T). The problem is not that Miami can sign the three best free agents available in one offseason; it's that they can keep those players, and add new players, and eventually wind up with a $100 million payroll, even though they're $40 million over the cap.

The proper response is to restrict teams' ability to spend above the cap. If you do that, not only will you eventually reduce the total compensation paid to players (especially mid level players like Drew Gooden and John Salmons), you will ensure that even teams who are able to stack their rosters are only able to do so for a short, limited run. Maybe Miami can sign The Three, but within two or three years, they have to break them up. But forget Miami, the Lakers wouldn't have been able to trade for Gasol, extend him, extend Kobe, extend Bynum, re-sign Odom, and add Artest, on their way to a $90 million payroll (with designs on adding Dwight Howard or Chris Paul). The Celtics wouldn't have been able to keep their core together for four years running. What the Knicks are trying wouldn't be as likely to happen. The Mavs would have run into salary cap issues. And as more billionaires buy into the NBA, the cost constraints will become even more critical.

I'll also mention that it's been 15 years since Shaq left Orlando for LA, for much the same reasons LeBron left Cleveland. It's been 11 years since Grant Hill left Detroit via sign-and-trade. There have been two new CBAs ratified in that time, and at no point was this topic an issue. Players earn their free agency by playing out their contracts. But my issue is not just that it's unfair to restrict millionaires movement in sports leagues (it is), but that it's entirely unnecessary, and this recent outrage over free agents signing where they want is misplaced and short-sighted.
 
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pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
I recall a lot of talk about collusion and tampering when the Shaq to LA move went down but the NBA wasn't going to punish its glory team so they found another whipping boy (Miami iirc) and stuck it to them instead.
 
Is there any timeline of events to get an agreement in time for preseason? Are they behind schedule yet? What can we look for as signs of progress. At least they are not cursing, screaming, threatening yet. Good sign or bad sign.
 
I recall a lot of talk about collusion and tampering when the Shaq to LA move went down but the NBA wasn't going to punish its glory team so they found another whipping boy (Miami iirc) and stuck it to them instead.
I can't really speak to any of that, other than speculation and conjecture (Shaq wanted to be in LA and they offered the most money, so I don't know where collusion even matters). I'm just pointing out that, as one of the best young players in the NBA, Shaq left his smaller market team for the glamor of Hollywood, and the world didn't jump up and down in outrage over a player daring to leave his home team. Shortly thereafter, we got Bird rights, and maybe that would have kept Shaq in Orlando, but we'll never know.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
Bird rights already existed, just in a different form. As I recall there were several issues at play, and one was that LA and Shaq had talks while he was under contract to Orlando and he made it clear he wanted to play there to pursue his rap and film interests. Then there was also some contract manipulation going on that managed to open the capspace for Shaq, remember this was also before the league decided to make an example out of Minnesota for another common practice of signing players to short term contracts with the promise of a huge pay day once they had qualified for Bird. So the Lakers used practically every dirty trick in the book to get Shaq, the league looked the other way and then eventually punished other teams for the same offense.

I actually did feel the whole time the Shaq thing went down that it was vile on the same level as I did LBJ. I know there was plenty of discussion about it on usenet and I wasn't the only one feeling that way.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
I must admit, it's going to be brutal if there is no NBA season until 2012. I mean the NFL should start up again so that's a good thing but the only bad thing with that is you have to wait every Sunday to watch football, where as NBA is everyday so that's the only downfall with that. I really can't talk too much about the lockout because I don't know too much about the CBA and all things related to the lockout.
 
Bill Simmons wrote a gigantic column about the CBA and what he would do to fix the system. Some of his ideas where better than others, but there were a few I really liked.

He made up some concept of what makes a "franchise player" .. I disagreed with how a franchise player was determined (he used all star games and ALL-NBA teams) I think that every team should be allowed to sign anyplayer from their team to a 'franchise contract' .. The idea being that you can retain your players for more than Max money (Whatever that will be) but having ONLY the max contract count against your cap.

So say Max contracts are 17 million per year, We decide we want to sign DMC to a franchise contract .. it only counts as a 17mil cap hit, but he gets paid more than that. The catch is that he ONLY makes the extra money (anything over 17mil) if he is on the Kings. If he gets traded, his salary goes back down to the base 17 mil.

I think this concept, along with some kind of Franchise Tag, would help solve the "superteam" problem, and help the smaller markets keep their players around.

A Franchise tag is extremely important though .. And I think it woulds pretty well in the NFL, all things considered. Even if the player doesnt sign with the team that franchised him, that team is at least allowed to trade his rights and get something back from the player.

Another idea thats a little out there is taking a page out of MLB's book. At the end of the season, the free agents are broken down into classes ( class A, class B, class C, ect .. ) and if you sign one of those players, you have to give the team you are signing them away from some sort of compensation... something like a second round pick for Class B and below, and a first rounder for class A.
 
Bill Simmons wrote a gigantic column about the CBA and what he would do to fix the system. Some of his ideas where better than others, but there were a few I really liked.

He made up some concept of what makes a "franchise player" .. I disagreed with how a franchise player was determined (he used all star games and ALL-NBA teams) I think that every team should be allowed to sign anyplayer from their team to a 'franchise contract' .. The idea being that you can retain your players for more than Max money (Whatever that will be) but having ONLY the max contract count against your cap.

So say Max contracts are 17 million per year, We decide we want to sign DMC to a franchise contract .. it only counts as a 17mil cap hit, but he gets paid more than that. The catch is that he ONLY makes the extra money (anything over 17mil) if he is on the Kings. If he gets traded, his salary goes back down to the base 17 mil.

I think this concept, along with some kind of Franchise Tag, would help solve the "superteam" problem, and help the smaller markets keep their players around.

A Franchise tag is extremely important though .. And I think it woulds pretty well in the NFL, all things considered. Even if the player doesnt sign with the team that franchised him, that team is at least allowed to trade his rights and get something back from the player.

Another idea thats a little out there is taking a page out of MLB's book. At the end of the season, the free agents are broken down into classes ( class A, class B, class C, ect .. ) and if you sign one of those players, you have to give the team you are signing them away from some sort of compensation... something like a second round pick for Class B and below, and a first rounder for class A.
I like the last idea, which is basically a restricted free agency system. I would add that each class has a contract value assigned to it, so that the team restricting him is offering him a multi year contract, maybe three years at MLE level or something. And the teams that are interested in signing him can bid away, but if he signs, they are giving up their corresponding pick in that year's draft (which means that this portion of free agency, if not all of it, happens before the draft).

As for the tag idea, I like the structure. I wouldn't penalize the player by knocking his contract down if the team decides to trade him, though. I would make it so that the Bird team has the right to place a franchise player tag on one player every offseason, which guarantees the player a max year, max value contract, plus an extra year, plus 15% (or 25%, or whatever figure is aggressive enough). And the Bird team only counts the max value against their cap, not the extra 15% (or whatever). BUT, I would still allow the player the opportunity to sign elsewhere for the normal max contract, and just like the restricted free agency, the team signing him would have to give up their first rounder in that year's draft. If we do this, we could also get rid of S&Ts.

Adjustments: Free agency would begin July 1, and NBA Draft would take place on the third Thursday in July. That way, the tags and pick swaps can be applicable for that year's draft.

Practical examples (for next offseason, since we've already had this year's draft): Max contracts are five/four years (Bird/non-Bird), and something like $100/$80 million. Chris Paul is a free agent, but his team places the franchise player tag on him (his cap value would be 75% of the true value of the contract each year). Another team signs him to an offer sheet for a four year, $80 million contract, meaning he's choosing to leave his team and go play for less money and less years than he'd get on his franchise player deal, and the team he's signing with is giving up their upcoming first round draft pick (or, both teams can negotiate a S&T outside of the tag rules, but with the same compensation restrictions). Each team is limited to signing one franchise tag player per offseason, whether it's their own player or another team's player, and they can only sign another team's franchise tag player to an offer sheet if they have a first rounder in the upcoming draft (or work out separate terms with the Bird team).

This would kill the super team issue, also. For instance, the Heat wouldn't have been able to sign LeBron and Bosh in the same offseason. It's actually very similar to the restricted free agency idea I mentioned already.
 

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
I know this has been asked before, but I cannot remember the answer. What happens to the one year Sac deal if the whole season is lost?
The "reprieve" that the NBA gave to Sacramento wasn't a season-based thing. They basically said that if there is a new arena in progress (basically, funding identified/secured and wheels actually turning) by the next relocation filing deadline (March 1, 2012) that they wouldn't allow the franchise to leave. So whether or not basketball gets played this year has no bearing on whether or not the Kings stay or go. It's all about March 1st and progress on the arena project.
 
That's true, they are totally separate issues although not having a season and a dwindling fan base and interest in the NBA as a whole could hurt.
 
and if it makes everyone feel better, Stern has been on vacation the past 2 weeks. Lovely. Don't remember Goodell going on a holiday as things started heading towards the deadline for missing games. Hope Stern is enjoying spending his 15-23M per salary, on some foreign beach while sipping martini's. Maybe his fat a** will get sunburn.
 

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
and if it makes everyone feel better, Stern has been on vacation the past 2 weeks. Lovely. Don't remember Goodell going on a holiday as things started heading towards the deadline for missing games. Hope Stern is enjoying spending his 15-23M per salary, on some foreign beach while sipping martini's. Maybe his fat a** will get sunburn.
It has been reported that Stern is forgoing his salary during the lockout, and on an interview with Bill Simmons he implied that his salary is about half what was reported - in the $7-8M range. You know, just to keep things at least a little balanced.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
and if it makes everyone feel better, Stern has been on vacation the past 2 weeks. Lovely. Don't remember Goodell going on a holiday as things started heading towards the deadline for missing games. Hope Stern is enjoying spending his 15-23M per salary, on some foreign beach while sipping martini's. Maybe his fat a** will get sunburn.
How much Stern makes has nothing to do with the negotiations. I could care less how much money he makes. Just like I could care less how much money you make. I hope its a lot. There was a meeting scheduled about two weeks ago, and the players cancelled it because it was rumored that the owners wern't showing up with a new proposal. Personally I think that was a mistake. Having a meeting is better than no meeting at all. Hopefully this meeting will take place, and some progress will be made.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I'm not going to throw stones at either side. But this I know! Throwing insults or making accusations by either side won't solve anything.
 
They should be meeting every week, even if they just sit there looking at each other. You can't make progress if you're not even willing to get the principals in a room together. At a certain point during the NFL lockout, the two sides would have mediated sessions, but they would be in rooms separately working on proposals, not necessarily sitting around a table negotiating with each other. Now, the NFL didn't do it perfectly either, but they didn't miss any games. They could have banged a new CBA out in 6 weeks if they were all motivated. Unfortunately, the only thing that's going to motivate either side is the loss of earnings, and the owners are prepared to lose an entire season if necessary. The players are going to be bled, sooner or later.
 
How much Stern makes has nothing to do with the negotiations. I could care less how much money he makes. Just like I could care less how much money you make. I hope its a lot. There was a meeting scheduled about two weeks ago, and the players cancelled it because it was rumored that the owners wern't showing up with a new proposal. Personally I think that was a mistake. Having a meeting is better than no meeting at all. Hopefully this meeting will take place, and some progress will be made.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I'm not going to throw stones at either side. But this I know! Throwing insults or making accusations by either side won't solve anything.
Well I do care what he earns. It's a little hypocritical to hide your salary as commissioner(reportedly 3 owners know his salary), with reports of it being as high as 23M, while saying the entire economic system around the league is broken, and players salaries are too high. If it was anyone else, I wouldn't care, except he's the commissioner. Guess we disagree.

I just don't think he and the owners, who he is representing in this, are serious about making a deal and not losing games. I have a problem with that. At least show you're willing to work on getting something done. Instead, they've been pretty much MIA since July 1st. Maybe insults don't help, but this is an nba forum, and if I can't insult Stern here, where can I? :rolleyes: Plus, I don't think he cares much about my opinion.
 
I really don't think David Stern is the problem at all and I don't care if he makes around $10 million (most likely) or $20 million plus (less likely). The commish is simply the owners errand boy - they hired him and they can fire him. The NBA owners put what was said by Billy Hunter to be a final, take it or leave it offer on the table, and the players union refused to meet to discuss it. Hunter also said recently that the entire season is likely to be lost due to "a few hard-line owners." He never mentioned Stern and it appears they are a least respectful to each other. Stern has said that he's looking at Labor Day, Sept. 5 as date that the association will have to make "adjustments" to the upcoming schedule - meaning games will be cancelled. The number depends on how long the clock ticks after Sept. 5 with no new CBA.

Like Baja said, I don't have a dog in this fight either but it will be interesting to see if Billy Hunter, Derek Fisher, etal, stand pat over next couple of weeks and certainly beyond. Will there be cracks in the union which force NBPA to make a deal or just watch a staggering financial blow to all the players under contract and the entire league as a whole. But it's the players who WILL take the biggest hit without question. Elton Brand who is set to make $17 million this season recently said that he's prepared to go without his salary if need be and that the players are sticking together. That might be a little easier for him to say since he apparently has a lot of good investments (including movie production company) and other assets to tide him over for some time. I wonder if your average, say $5 million a year NBA player, who does not have many or no outside income sources - if they will "stay together" hand-in-hand with set for life multi-millionaires like Brand.

Latest on CBA negotiations with two sides apparently now meeting before Labor Day:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...meeting.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a16&eref=sihp
 
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Well I do care what he earns. It's a little hypocritical to hide your salary as commissioner(reportedly 3 owners know his salary), with reports of it being as high as 23M, while saying the entire economic system around the league is broken, and players salaries are too high. If it was anyone else, I wouldn't care, except he's the commissioner. Guess we disagree.

I just don't think he and the owners, who he is representing in this, are serious about making a deal and not losing games. I have a problem with that. At least show you're willing to work on getting something done. Instead, they've been pretty much MIA since July 1st. Maybe insults don't help, but this is an nba forum, and if I can't insult Stern here, where can I? :rolleyes: Plus, I don't think he cares much about my opinion.
In the same way I think the Players aren't very serious about it either. It takes two to tango and now they don't have any. Also, if they bothj sat down today - the 26th - and met each day they could have an agreement out by September 1. I don't care how they settle it, just do it.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
Whatever David Stern makes it isn't that far out of scale with what many players are making so I believe his salary is irrelevant to the discussion. As is his vacation time, he is a figurehead in all of this. There are mediators on both sides and they will work to an agreement and then the owners and players will vote their approval. As far as I'm aware Stern does not get a vote so who cares what he is doing? And if he is voluntarily going unpaid, bravo for him.
 
Stern is more powerful than Goodell and Goodell was front and center trying to get the NFL lockout solved. The fact that Stern is on a 2 week vacation while nothing is getting done is not a good thing. The players better be ready for a prolonged lockout.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Stern is more powerful than Goodell and Goodell was front and center trying to get the NFL lockout solved. The fact that Stern is on a 2 week vacation while nothing is getting done is not a good thing. The players better be ready for a prolonged lockout.
Obviously the League has an end game. As do the players. Unfortunately its not the same one. But I seriously doubt that either side wants to have games cancelled, much less the cancelling of the entire season. Stern's salary, nor his vacation, has nothing to do with the talks. I realize that most of us are desperate for some glimmer of hope in regards to the CBA. As a result, we over analyize every little nuance thats seemingly attached to that desired outcome.

But all that matters, is what happens when the two sides sit down across the table from one another. And I can guarantee you, Stern's vacation won't be on the list of items discussed. I don't think the owners have offered up their final deal yet, and won't, until they see a significant move by the players. For the most part, the players only major move is to agree to a reduction in their share of total profits from 57% to 54% of the BRI. The Owners orginial offer was for a 50/50 split, a salary cap of 48 mil, and a total hardcap. The owners have reduced that to a salary cap of 62 mil, and some sort of more flexable semi-hardcap.

The players argue that the league is starting from a position that doesn't exist, while the players are starting from the now expired CBA. While that appears a worthy argument on the surface, in reality, all new agreements really start from scratch. And thats how they should be approached. The old CBA is gone. I don't blame the players for trying to hang onto what they had. And I don't blame the owners for trying to reach a more favorable, and profitable agreement. Its my opinion that the players will lose this battle. So the question is, how much money are they willing to lose along with losing the battle? I say that, not because its my desired outcome, but because I think the owners hold all the cards.

This coming meeting on wednsday may be the biggest meeting they've had. If they immediately agree to meet again, then its possible that the season may be saved. If not, then its going to be a long depressing season, if there is a season. One of the sides has to make a major concession.