The "Lets keep Boogie" thread

Mr. S£im Citrus said:
I'm always intrigued by the notion of how each side on these issues always seems to think that the other side is the only one doing the "name calling," and how their side is the only one that's arguing "rationally."
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while this can be a fair lens through which to view a particular argument, it should also be noted that it's not terribly useful to engage with a misguided even-handedness that assumes both sides of a particular argument engage in the same irrationally counter-productive behaviors, or that each side of a particular argument values "logic" or "reason" in equal measure. i'm not claiming that the preceding necessarily matters here, but simply that exercises in critical thinking cut both ways; sometimes we measure "the other side" unfairly, and other times you just have to call a spade a spade and move on...
 
mac said:
This isn't really a supported statement but I doubt Cousins would do that. Just seems too proud to ever learn from others, especially if they ever say anything critical about him. He wants to be his own type of player. "Student of the game" is definitely not how you'd describe him. Immensely talented on his own though. I expect another offseason of him just generally staying in shape without really working on any skills in particular. Would love to be wrong.

Then again, there was this: http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...ousins-still-hasnt-heard-from-shaquille-oneal
so I could be very wrong. I just thought that if a player was going to be working out with famous bigs you'd have heard of it by their 6th season.
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Delusion is the only appropriate word. Way to ignore what coaches have actually said about him. I suppose it's too difficult for you to comprehend that he has come back more skilled and more dominant every single year. In fact you would be hard pressed to find someone in the entire league with more linear improvement than Cuz. Don't let facts get in the way of your agenda, though.
 
Dime Dropper said:
In fact you would be hard pressed to find someone in the entire league with more linear improvement than Cuz. Don't let facts get in the way of your agenda, though.
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Taking out pace, is that necessarily true? He cut down on fouls and turnovers, added the three-point shot, but his percentages were down. You could say he was playing the offense he was asked to, and that is fair, but I don't know if it means he necessarily got that much better this year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/couside01.html#per_poss::none
 
206Fan said:
We all have our own opinions. No one has a stupid one...especially regarding Cousins. There's fair assessments from both sides. I'm on the fence because I think this team needs a minor rebuild. I don't know if Cousins would be happy about that though.

I hated his offensive game this year because he played too much out in the perimeter. He was always looking to score and force the issue. He needs to go back being a post-player like his first few years in the league.

I think it's going to be hard to build around a high-usage dominant big like Cousins. How many teams today are built around bigs who are as inefficient as Cousins? Not too many. Rookie KAT is at 54% FG. Cousins this year is at 45.1% FG. That's so horrible for a big man. Even Jahlil Okafor is at 50.8% FG...

It's a guards' league now. Can we build around bigs still? Yes. Can we build around inefficient, high usage, and ball dominant bigs? I don't think so. I personally think Cousins needs to start working with Hakeem and Shaq. For such a talented big, his touch around the rim is poor.
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Demarcus is #11 in the NBA in PER. That stands for Player Efficiency Rating. He's higher than KAT and Okafor. That means he's more efficient. Not less. FG% is not the only measure of efficiency, right? If you want to say Cousins is inefficient, then don't compare him unfavorably to two guys less efficient.
 
LPKingsFan said:
Taking out pace, is that necessarily true? He cut down on fouls and turnovers, added the three-point shot, but his percentages were down. You could say he was playing the offense he was asked to, and that is fair, but I don't know if it means he necessarily got that much better this year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/couside01.html#per_poss::none
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once a superstar-level talent begins to enter his prime, there are only so many ceilings left to bust through. personally, i'd say that adding a credible three-point shot constitutes a sizable development at this stage of demarcus' career. he was 11-69 (16%) from three during his first five seasons. this season, he shot 70-210 (33%). he took three times as many shots from beyond the arc this season as the prior five seasons combined, and managed to hit them much more consistently. now, i'm among those who believe that big cuz shouldn't be spending quite that much time on the perimeter, but he has undeniably added a major weapon to his arsenal that defenses must respect. the guy is a 6'11", 270 lbs center, and he now shoots nearly league-average from distance. that's not exactly the kind of improvement you sneeze at...

there are certainly areas of improvement that remain for cousins. efficiency at the rim, on-court demeanor, and clutch play remain the biggest hurdles for him to clear. and while he absolutely must seek improvement in those areas to catapult himself into the conversation with the most elite in the nba, let's not pretend like he hasn't clearly gotten better as each year passes. he came into the league as a defensive liability, and now he ranks among the league's best rim protectors. he couldn't stay on the court through his first few seasons due to foul trouble, and now he's averaging almost 35 mpg. he used to really struggle in fighting through contact without turning the ball over or committing offensive fouls, and now he's a league-leader in free throw attempts per game (tied with james harden for #1). he didn't have a consistently reliable jumper, and as if this season, he's drilling three's with regularity...

demarcus cousins is 25 years old, and whatever rough edges remain can be smoothed out through the establishment of a strong team-wide culture that is considerably less dysfunctional than the toxic environment cousins has had to grow in for the last six seasons...
 
Chubbs said:
Demarcus is #11 in the NBA in PER. That stands for Player Efficiency Rating. He's higher than KAT and Okafor. That means he's more efficient. Not less. FG% is not the only measure of efficiency, right? If you want to say Cousins is inefficient, then don't compare him unfavorably to two guys less efficient.
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I won't speak for anyone else, but when I think of a player's "efficiency" I'm usually talking about scoring efficiency (something like true shooting), not PER. That's a good point about the misnomer there, though.
 
Padrino said:
once a superstar-level talent begins to enter his prime, there are only so many ceilings left to bust through.
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Sure, but I read Dime Dropper as implying that the improvements were continuing this season at the same trajectory.


Padrino said:
there are certainly areas of improvement that remain for cousins. efficiency at the rim, on-court demeanor, and clutch play remain the biggest hurdles for him to clear. and while he absolutely must seek improvement in those areas to catapult himself into the conversation with the most elite in the nba, let's not pretend like he hasn't clearly gotten better as each year passes. he came into the league as a defensive liability, and now he ranks among the league's best rim protectors. he couldn't stay on the court through his first few seasons due to foul trouble, and now he's averaging almost 35 mpg. he used to really struggle in fighting through contact without turning the ball over or committing offensive fouls, and now he's a league-leader in free throw attempts per game (tied with james harden for #1). he didn't have a consistently reliable jumper, and as if this season, he's drilling three's with regularity...
.
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No doubt. I remember the days where we longed for a defensive anchor to cover for Cousins, before he became one in his own right. But my point was mostly about his regression in %s last season, which I'm not sure was completely cancelled out by his other improvements.

Padrino said:
demarcus cousins is 25 years old, and whatever rough edges remain can be smoothed out through the establishment of a strong team-wide culture that is considerably less dysfunctional than the toxic environment cousins has had to grow in for the last six seasons...
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I think there is a legitimate question to what extent he has contributed, at the very least in part, to that toxic environment. Hopefully this summer can get everyone on the same page, and things will be onward and upward from there.
 
ppine said:
The other day I thought about Cousins in the same way that Shaq used to just physically overwhelm people. It is unusual to see that bunch of skills. It also means that Cousins plays with a lot of contact, and he is a complainer so the ref's ignore some fouls that could be called in his favor. One of the crucial skills he needs to learn is, that if he wants to play that style of ball, he is going to get beat up some. Shaq didn't seem to complain much, but maybe being bigger helped him.
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Can you imagine how frustrated Shaq might have gotten if he was on a perennial cellar-dweller for the first six years of his NBA career? ;)
 
LPKingsFan said:
Sure, but I read Dime Dropper as implying that the improvements were continuing this season at the same trajectory.
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Then you read wrong (or I didn't articulate it correctly, probably the latter). You will struggle to find anyone at a usage rate even close to Cuz, who has statistically gotten better than Cuz year by year. I also don't want to gloss over lowering TOs and fouls given that this was his biggest weaknesses as a kid. Stats aren't everything of course, before someone tries to argue a strawman. But Cousins has demonstrably improved aspects of his game, as Padrino has quite easily shown. It's a shame others couldn't apply the same level of reason (not directed at you). To be fair, at least one of the guilty parties prefaced their post with "This isn't really a supported statement," because that is about all they got right in their post.



No doubt. I remember the days where we longed for a defensive anchor to cover for Cousins, before he became one in his own right. But my point was mostly about his regression in %s last season, which I'm not sure was completely cancelled out by his other improvements.
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FG% only tells part of the story. I agree with you. But Cuz is far from a traditional center. His % will go up significantly if he is put where he's best (though he's never going to be 60%+, his game is far too dynamic and varied).



I think there is a legitimate question to what extent he has contributed, at the very least in part, to that toxic environment. Hopefully this summer can get everyone on the same page, and things will be onward and upward from there.
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Cuz is not perfect. I don't think I, or anyone else, has argued so. There are many things Boogie can improve on. Temper, emotional control are at the top of the list. But jesus, people lose all perspective. It's just weird to me. Lets trade the best big man in the game (who is only 25 and borderline insanely loyal to this small city) for change, because he gets technicals. It's bat-s*it insane to me. I don't and will never understand such a pansy attitude by a minority of this fanbase.
 
LPKingsFan said:
I think there is a legitimate question to what extent he has contributed, at the very least in part, to that toxic environment. Hopefully this summer can get everyone on the same page, and things will be onward and upward from there.
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cousins' attitude has been problematic since he came into the league, but i don't think this is a "chicken or egg" scenario by any stretch of the imagination. however much weight we want to assign to demarcus' contributions to the dysfunction of the sacramento kings, simply removing him from the equation would have done absolutely nothing to improve the culture of toxicity that has spanned two separate ownership groups and two separate front offices. attempts to relocate the franchise. cost cutting measures. blatant mismanagement. abject failures in the draft. bad trades. worse planning. lack of long-term vision. perpetually mediocre signings. cynical gimmicks to appease ticket buyers. hell, even the the kings' post-rick adelman coaching carousel was a problem long before demarcus was drafted. eric musselman. reggie theus. kenny natt. paul westphal. the first three were hired and fired between 2006 and 2009, and westphal was famously canned after throwing the kings' prized 2010 draft pick under the bus. and don't get me started on the maloofs proclaiming to the heavens that keith smart was "their guy," just as vivek proclaimed to the heavens that michael malone was his guy... well, until he wasn't...

demarcus certainly hasn't been an angel of any kind since arriving in sacramento, but his attitude is hardly the Soul-Sucking Vortex of Doom that grant napear and so many kings fans make it out to be. it's a problem, yes, but when people take such seething umbrage at this particular problem, it's like screaming, "goddammit all, i stubbed my toe!!" right after being punched repeatedly in the face has blurred your vision so you can't see where you're walking. sure, your toe hurts something fierce, but don't you want someone to do something about the person who assaulted you in the first place?! the fact of the matter is this: you can't fire the owner. kings fans were desperate to cast vivek ranadive in the role of a savior, and it's been hard on all of us to realize that, as happy as we may be that vivek purchased the team and kept it here, he's done a p*ss poor job of shepherding this franchise forward into its next era. but kings fans can't do anything about that. kings fans can't do anything about vivek hiring a head coach before properly organizing his front office not once but twice. kings fans can't do anything about vivek hiring pete d'alessandro and his weaseling ways. kings fans can't do anything about the last two utterly wasted seasons as vivek sorts through his rookie mistakes. and kings fans can't do anything about vlade divac's on-the-job growing pains as he tries to right this practically capsized ship...

but if grant napear gets enough kings fans lathered up about mean ole demarcus cousins and his mean ole bitter beer face, then maybe, just maybe, kings fans can do something about it. maybe we'll be able to raise enough hell to run him out of town! on a rail, no less!! because he's got to go!! HE'S GOT TO GO!!!! etc. :rolleyes:
 
Dime Dropper said:
Delusion is the only appropriate word. Way to ignore what coaches have actually said about him. I suppose it's too difficult for you to comprehend that he has come back more skilled and more dominant every single year. In fact you would be hard pressed to find someone in the entire league with more linear improvement than Cuz. Don't let facts get in the way of your agenda, though.
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He did it in an environment that wasn't very developmental friendly. Other than Boogie, what player has developed and become a star level talent under these difficult circumstances?
 
Chubbs said:
Demarcus is #11 in the NBA in PER. That stands for Player Efficiency Rating. He's higher than KAT and Okafor. That means he's more efficient. Not less. FG% is not the only measure of efficiency, right? If you want to say Cousins is inefficient, then don't compare him unfavorably to two guys less efficient.
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I obviously meant scoring. Cousins has a terribly inefficient fg%. You can point to his style of play, and say he doesn't play above the rim like Whiteside... well ok, let's look at rookies KAT and Okafor instead then. Both players aren't above the rim-type players. KAT more than Okafor, but it's not a major part of his game.

Cousins needs to increase his scoring efficiency. Even his TS% is poor for someone like him who gets so many FTs and takes lots of 3s. Cousins has a terrible fg% and a terrible TS%. Can you build around an inefficient scoring big?

This is a real question that needs to be answered.
 
206Fan said:
I obviously meant scoring. Cousins has a terribly inefficient fg%. You can point to his style of play, and say he doesn't play above the rim like Whiteside... well ok, let's look at rookies KAT and Okafor instead then. Both players aren't above the rim-type players. KAT more than Okafor, but it's not a major part of his game.

Cousins needs to increase his scoring efficiency. Even his TS% is poor for someone like him who gets so many FTs and takes lots of 3s. Cousins has a terrible fg% and a terrible TS%. Can you build around an inefficient scoring big?

This is a real question that needs to be answered.
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LOL. Talking about two guys who have lower PER than Cuz to show that Cuz TFG% is poor. You sure know your stuff.

That's not a criticism of KAT or Okafor before you take the predictable strawman argument.

Nobody argued that Cuz isn't efficient because he doesn't play above the rim. You set that up so you would have an [incorrect] counter argument.

Thing is, there are a very fair amount of legit criticisms against Boogie. I find it very bizarre that some Kings fans pick completely irrelevant aspects of the game to complain about. Very strange.
 
Dime Dropper said:
LOL. Talking about two guys who have lower PER than Cuz to show that Cuz TFG% is poor. You sure know your stuff.

That's not a criticism of KAT or Okafor before you take the predictable strawman argument.

Nobody argued that Cuz isn't efficient because he doesn't play above the rim. You set that up so you would have an [incorrect] counter argument.

Thing is, there are a very fair amount of legit criticisms against Boogie. I find it very bizarre that some Kings fans pick completely irrelevant aspects of the game to complain about. Very strange.
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Did I not make it obvious that I was talking about his scoring when I brought up his fg% and later his TS%????? I will clarify next time.

His fg% puts him in 33rd overall among all of the bigs in the NBA. His TS% puts him at 81st overall among all of the bigs in the NBA. This is ironic because ts% takes in account of FTs. Cousins is top 3 in FTs. So in theory, this shooting metric should benefit him, but his FG% is so low, that it actually doesn't benefit him...

His eFG% is 35th overall in terms of all bigs...

Sorry, will make sure I specify that I'm talking about his scoring. (All scoring metrics have him as a player who probably shouldn't be taking this many shots)
 
206Fan said:
Did I not make it obvious that I was talking about his scoring when I brought up his fg% and later his TS%????? I will clarify next time.

His fg% puts him in 33rd overall among all of the bigs in the NBA. His TS% puts him at 81st overall among all of the bigs in the NBA. This is ironic because ts% takes in account of FTs. Cousins is top 3 in FTs. So in theory, this shooting metric should benefit him, but his FG% is so low, that it actually doesn't benefit him...

His eFG% is 35th overall in terms of all bigs...

Sorry, will make sure I specify that I'm talking about his scoring. (All scoring metrics have him as a player who probably shouldn't be taking this many shots)
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Presumably you are super happy that we just fired a coach that completely misused Cuz and the roster then (in which case I'm in agreement with you)? Or it's all Cuz' fault too, predictably?
 
Dime Dropper said:
Delusion is the only appropriate word. Way to ignore what coaches have actually said about him. I suppose it's too difficult for you to comprehend that he has come back more skilled and more dominant every single year. In fact you would be hard pressed to find someone in the entire league with more linear improvement than Cuz. Don't let facts get in the way of your agenda, though.
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I don't see how what you say contradicts what I said. But of course, please go ahead being all aggressive just because someone said something negative about Cousins. Not being willing to learn from others doesn't mean he won't improve, which I alluded to in saying he's immensely talented and wants to be his own player. Tell me - aside from his 3 point shooting can you tell me something (offensively) that Cousins has clearly gotten more skilled at? It sure as hell isn't his post play. And tell me, have you heard reports of him working out with so and so in the offseason?

If I had an agenda, it would be saying that Cousins hasn't worked out with well known big man mentors, so it would be strange to think he'd suddenly start now. Your facts are that he's come back more dominant every year (I still disagree with the skilled part - aside from 3 point shooting I think that's just natural progression of skills he already had and displayed in his first year). Those facts don't contradict what I said. Now if would have actually taken a step back to read what I wrote instead of getting all huffy and puffy, maybe you could have given quotes like:

“(Cousins) just naturally has a lot of skills that very few big men have ever had,” Johnson said. “And a lot of that is a testament to his genes and what he learned at Kentucky and growing up. It’s exceptional.”

Johnson added that big men like Cousins work hard in practice to become all-around players and shoot the three as well as dominate the boards.

“He doesn’t get enough credit,” Johnson said. “You just don’t magically do that stuff. He’s more of a student of the game than people think.”

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/article60184656.html#storylink=cpy

Guys get a reputation for their willingness to learn and study the game. Look at Rondo, Kobe, LeBron etc. Cousins' doesn't have one. You would never have a quote saying "Rondo is more of a student of the game than people think". Other guys have reputations for being very coachable. Cousins isn't one of those either. But Cousins does have a reputation for being immensely talented, and IMO that's why he's as dominant as he is.
 
Dime Dropper said:
Presumably you are super happy that we just fired a coach that completely misused Cuz and the roster then (in which case I'm in agreement with you)? Or it's all Cuz' fault too, predictably?
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Uhm what in the world does this have anything to do with what I said in terms of Cousins' inefficient scoring?

This is why we can't have nice discussions here. And I could've sworn there were 2 threads... the "lets keep boogie" thread " and the "lets trade boogie" thread.
 
King Baller said:
This whole "Lets run Boogie out of town" vendetta reminds me of a trade the 49ers made back in the day. The great pass rusher Charles Haley was upset that the 49ers had brought in Tim McDonald who played his same position. So Haley urinated on the Defensive Coordinators car. Haley was promptly traded to the Dallas Cowboys where he was again All Pro and won DPOY.

So the moral of the story is just because a guy pisses on your car does not mean he is not a great player. Get it boys?
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Cool story bro
 
Chubbs said:
Demarcus is #11 in the NBA in PER. That stands for Player Efficiency Rating. He's higher than KAT and Okafor. That means he's more efficient. Not less. FG% is not the only measure of efficiency, right? If you want to say Cousins is inefficient, then don't compare him unfavorably to two guys less efficient.
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No it doesn't
 
206Fan said:
Did I not make it obvious that I was talking about his scoring when I brought up his fg% and later his TS%????? I will clarify next time.

His fg% puts him in 33rd overall among all of the bigs in the NBA. His TS% puts him at 81st overall among all of the bigs in the NBA. This is ironic because ts% takes in account of FTs. Cousins is top 3 in FTs. So in theory, this shooting metric should benefit him, but his FG% is so low, that it actually doesn't benefit him...

His eFG% is 35th overall in terms of all bigs...

Sorry, will make sure I specify that I'm talking about his scoring. (All scoring metrics have him as a player who probably shouldn't be taking this many shots)
Click to expand...

I'm no a stats guy, but I think this is a valid point and indeed a weakness of Cousins game so far.
But what is the reason for his low FG%?
When watching Wolves games you will notice that Towns is used in a very different way than Cousins. Althoug Towns might be equally skilled as Cousins I think he isn't asked to create his own offense the way Cousins does. His main weapons are the pick&roll/pop and a quick half hook when he is already in a deep position. Yes he can drive from the perimeter, but he usually does it, when the defense overplays his guards or wings and he has a clear lane with only the help defense flying in.

Cousins on the other hand is the offense for the Kings. Even with Rondo around he still was asked to drive 1vsX and to fight threw constant double teams in the post. He played in a starting unit where up to 3 players where offensively neglectable for the opposing team in certain spots. This might effect the way he is defended and it might also effect his willingness to pass. In fact the efficient games of Cousins came when he wasn't forcing anything and was a willing passer. Problems occure when this doesn't lead to wins.

Long story short: I think Cousins low Fg% has little to do with gis skillset. It's caused by a mixture of his role on the team, his playstyle of trying to draw fouls, which will lead to poor shot selection and his mindset, that he needs to carry the team and dominate his matchup, which leads to even more poor shot selection.
In the recent interview Cousins more or less pleads for a coach, who will hold him accountable and who will bring some structure to the Kings.
I personally think, that with this kind of coach Cousins Fg% would improve, because there would be fewer forced attempts and more scoring in the flow of the offense.
And brining in better perimeter players should help too.
 
http://www.newsday.com/sports/colum...long-behind-him-eager-to-give-back-1.10721804

This is a good read. Excerpt:

"
Haley thanked many of his teammates, including Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith and Michael Irvin, as well as his coaches. He also thanked Cowboys owner Jerry Jones, who took him on a memorable ride when Haley first arrived in Dallas.

"It was a five-minute ride to the hotel, but it took an hour and a half," Haley said. "I know everything [Jones] has done in his whole life."

Haley paid special tribute to Hall of Fame coach Bill Walsh of the 49ers.

"Two days before he died, he called me still asking, 'What can I do to help you?' " Haley said. "I will always love him with all my heart." "
 
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