The Defenders -- A Little Respect Please

Boogie-havoc said:
Everybody WAS playing.

Since we tighten our rotation we looked miles better.
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It's true that our rotation has gotten shorter and we've been more consistent since then, but when you tighten things up and the result is Jermaine Taylor starting and Donte getting DNPs, something is very wrong with the coach's brain.
 
Ive said it before and i'll say it again - A short rotation is fine and dandy IF its the right short rotation. I dont think this current rotation is the right one. Donte needs to play everynight.
 
LOL @ anybody pointing out the record with those two as a basis for their argument. I've got news for you, the team is 8-26 overall. Everybody on this team has a crappy record when playing 20+ minutes...
 
Bricklayer said:
ooh, ooh -- where'd you get those numbers? You didn't actually go through every pay by play and count them up did you?
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Sort of, there is an online database of all NBA Games play by play. Simply ran a query for dalembert and got 13 with game dates. I can post the games in question later when I get home.

Also of note:
http://www.nbastuffer.com/2010-2011_NBA_Regular_Season_Player_Stats.html

Dalembert is 11th in TRB% (Total Rebound Percentage) ie. The percentage of all rebounds he grabs while on the floor at 19.2%. For comparison Kevin Love is 3rd at 23.8%.
 
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I just wish Donte could reliably hit the wide open 3. Lots of players have found themselves a solid role - even starter - on championship teams by being aggressive defenders able to hit wide open shots. Right now he's just so shaky it's limiting him.
 
I have the answer to Westphal's dilema about how to guard tall perimeter oriented pfs and Cs....put Donte on them. Tell him his mission is real clear. No open shots for the Bargnani's and Dirks of the world.
 
How does a goal tend "cost" us two points? Supposedly a goal tend is called only for shots that would likely have gone in for two points anyway.
 
kennadog said:
How does a goal tend "cost" us two points? Supposedly a goal tend is called only for shots that would likely have gone in for two points anyway.
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Goaltended shots are obviously not guaranteed to go in. There are some cases of goaltending (e.g. blocking the ball after it has hit the backboard) where the shot is not necessarily a shoe-in to go, and some in cases you'll see goaltending called where it's obvious the shot wouldn't go in.

Unfortunately, it's impossible to make a perfect estimate of how much a goaltending costs, on average. 2 points is too high, but we can guess a range. Be generous to the offense, say 90% of shots were going to go in anyway, and 50% of the misses would have been rebounded by the offense and put back on a dunk, and a goaltend only costs 0.1 points on average. Be generous to the defense and say that only 40% of goaltended shots were going to go in, the offense would rebound at a 20% clip, and then only score 50% of the time...more like 1.08 points cost per goaltend.

But yeah, it's probably less than one point per goaltend, on average.
 
Demarcus Cousins said:
So its smart to play taylor who just got here and leave donte on the bench?? Coach is dumb.
Taylor has more minutes than donte does already
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Ahhhh, let us not get carried away. Donte has played in 28 games for a total of 500 minutes. Taylor has played in 4 games for a total of 41 minutes. When I last checked, Taylor is a SG and Donte is a SF. So Taylor was filling in for Tyreke at the SG position. Now I suspose you could have moved Cisco to the SG position and replaced him with Greene, or Casspi, with Greene as the backup. But then your jerking Cisco around again. In reality, Taylor didn't get that many minutes in the game, so I don't think his presence had anything to to with Donte's minutes.

The truth is that if Donte could just show any consistency on the offensive side of the ball he'd be playing more. Its my humble opinion that you can succeed with a very good defensive center as long as you have good offensive players around him and he doesn't hurt you on offense. But at the SF position, its a lot harder to be one deminsional. The SF position is traditionally a position you get offense out of. There are exceptions of course, but even with those exceptions, you will get offense if you leave them open.

Battier is, for the most part considered a defensive player. But he shoots 38.5% from beyond the arc for his career. Bowen is another, but he shoots 39.3% from beyond the arc. Greene shoots just 29.6% from 3 pt land, and a pitiful 37.4% overall. If you going to be on the floor at the SF position, you have to be able to shoot better than that. It doesn't do any good to spread the floor if the other team isn't going to guard you. If you have him on the floor with Tyreke, then you have two players on the floor that the other team is going to dare to shoot from out there. That means the middle is going to get very clogged and players like Cousins, Thompson, and Landry are going to get doubled every time.

I don't have a problem with Dalembert. I've stated that I hope the Kings can resign him for a decent price. He'll get his points on putbacks, alleyopps, etc. I just don't know if he'll be happy with a reduced backup role. And if not, then if might be better if he moves on, rather than have an unhappy player on the team.

If I were Greene, I would be in the gym every bit of free time I had shooting jumpers. And the next offseason, I would hire a shooting coach and spend the entire summer working on my offense. Because thats the only thing keeping him off the floor right now.

This has never been about Greene's defense. It about his lack of ability to play both ends of the floor.
 
kennadog said:
How does a goal tend "cost" us two points? Supposedly a goal tend is called only for shots that would likely have gone in for two points anyway.
Click to expand...

Goal tending is when they block the shot after it had reached its highest point and is on its downward motion. Think of an upside down "U" shape as the trajectory. Also they call it if the ball is blocked after it touches the backboard. It doesnt matter if it was going to go in or not. However the officials dont always make the correct call, so players can get away with goaltending sometimes. Team gets awarded 2 points for every of their shot goaltended, or if its a 3 pointer they get 3 points but ive never seen that happen myself.
 
'89 Kings Fan said:
Sort of, there is an online database of all NBA Games play by play. Simply ran a query for dalembert and got 13 with game dates. I can post the games in question later when I get home.
Click to expand...

Now that could be hella handy for these sorts of things -- had no idea. Thx.
 
Bricklayer said:
Think about this logically -- I have put forward a series of statistics showing that Samuel Dalembert, on the whole, has a positive impact on the team's defense. Not a small positive impact either. A big one.
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And you are making assumptions with those stats without context. For example, we all know the kings play better at home, and that teams in general score less on the road than at home. There are 15 games in which Dally has played at least 20 minutes. All but 3 were at home. Do you understand my point? There are more factors that go into points scored and opp FG% and thus the defensive stats of the kings than just one player.



Then you come along complaining about goaltending calls. Think about it -- your golatending concern is already covered by my numbers. The Kings overall defense gets MUCH better when he's playing big minutes. And that includes the effects of his shotblocking, his man defense, his rebounding, and yes, his goaltending calls as well. Whatever negative effect the occasional goaltending call he gets has on our defense, it is obviously far overwhelmed by the good things he does on that end of the court, or otherwise the stats wouldn't show a 25pt improvement in shooting percentage, or an 8 point improvement in pts against.
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And again, think about this logically: you are attempting to make the point that because of his defensive impact, he deserves more time because the kings benefit more from that. I am making the point that his overall positive impact on the team is lessened because of the other areas of his game that negatively impact the kings when he's on the floor. If you are arguing impact, and thus importance/value, you can't just look at one side of the floor.

And a secondary point, as I have touched on, is that the stats you have posted are impacted by more than the factor of one player. Every stat needs context, and no stat is perfect. There are flaws in PER, there are flaws in +/-, and more.

I don't know how this goaltending thing became such a fascination for you, but it really is a very small part of overall defense, and something that any shotblocker is going to pick up quite a few of over the course of the season.
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I was using goaltending as an example of one area of his game that has a negative impact. You seem to think that more Dally = better Kings, and I was using several examples, goaltending being one of them, that has a negative impact on the team. I also clearly showed this with other examples and stats that show that his overall impact on the kings is far from all positive.
 
Kingsguy881 said:
I have the answer to Westphal's dilema about how to guard tall perimeter oriented pfs and Cs....put Donte on them. Tell him his mission is real clear. No open shots for the Bargnani's and Dirks of the world.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this seems pretty obvious to me too. The guy is 6'11" which makes him just as tall as Dirk or Bargnani and he's fast enough to keep up with them. No one is going to be able to block Dirk's fade away but a good defender can at least bother him and lower his percentage. And none of our centers want to hang out at the three point line to contest Bargnani but Donte could do it and you won't sacrifice your interior defense.

Earlier in the season when we had that string of defensive competency we were hopelessly out of synch on offense partially because Tyreke was shooting a horrific percentage from the field, partially because Cousins was still playing out of control, and partially because Landry was taking 15 foot fade away jump shots every time he touched the ball. Two out of three of those have been corrected since then, so maybe we could stand to lose a little offense now in exchange for much improved defense. Donte and Dalembert are never going to be offensive powerhouses (well, Donte has at least shown he has some talent on offense in the past) but their 10 points or so per game aren't as big of a problem if the rest of the team is playing up to their talent as well.
 
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Showtime said:
And you are making assumptions with those stats without context. For example, we all know the kings play better at home, and that teams in general score less on the road than at home. There are 15 games in which Dally has played at least 20 minutes. All but 3 were at home. Do you understand my point? There are more factors that go into points scored and opp FG% and thus the defensive stats of the kings than just one player.





And again, think about this logically: you are attempting to make the point that because of his defensive impact, he deserves more time because the kings benefit more from that. I am making the point that his overall positive impact on the team is lessened because of the other areas of his game that negatively impact the kings when he's on the floor. If you are arguing impact, and thus importance/value, you can't just look at one side of the floor.

And a secondary point, as I have touched on, is that the stats you have posted are impacted by more than the factor of one player. Every stat needs context, and no stat is perfect. There are flaws in PER, there are flaws in +/-, and more.



I was using goaltending as an example of one area of his game that has a negative impact. You seem to think that more Dally = better Kings, and I was using several examples, goaltending being one of them, that has a negative impact on the team. I also clearly showed this with other examples and stats that show that his overall impact on the kings is far from all positive.
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First of all, basically your argument comes down to I don't like him so I'm gonig to ignore the stats.

Secondly, this thread was about DEFENSE. not overall impact. Even says defenders in the title. All the stats posted were about defensive impact.

But let's go ahead and try to track down the Dalembert hurts us overall stats shall we? I'm off to 82games.com, the source for more arcane stats than you can shake a stick at. Here's what can be pulled from that site:

Daly +/-: +2.4pts (4th amongst our core players)
Daly Net Production: -0.2pts (2nd on the team, only Cisco has a positive, also 2nd lowest opponent production on the team)
Daly On/Off Court Offense per 100 possessions: +0.9pts (yes that's right, even the OFFENSE gets better)
Daly On/Off Court Defense per 100 possessions: -4.1pts (4.1pts better)
Daly On/Off Court Total per 100 possessions: +5.0pts

So he has a positive +/-, our defense gets better when he is on the court, and even our OFFENSE gets better when he is on the court. But he's hurting us. Go figure.

Now my first numbers in this thread were better -- more popular, less arcane, putting it all in context. But these have been back there all season.

It shoudl be noted BTW that it simply would not matter if a guy committed 10 turnovers a game and 5 goaltends a game -- if the team responded to his presence by playing better than it did without him then he is helping that team. Derek Fisher is being fitted for an artifical hip as we speak, has the worst stats of any starting PG, and yet he still has the second biggest +/- on that team. He's important to them. And none of that stuff applies to Daly. He's been one of the best at the things he does in this league for a long time. And the things he does pretty clearly outweighs the things he doesn't do.
 
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bajaden said:
The truth is that if Donte could just show any consistency on the offensive side of the ball he'd be playing more. Its my humble opinion that you can succeed with a very good defensive center as long as you have good offensive players around him and he doesn't hurt you on offense. But at the SF position, its a lot harder to be one deminsional. The SF position is traditionally a position you get offense out of. There are exceptions of course, but even with those exceptions, you will get offense if you leave them open.

Battier is, for the most part considered a defensive player. But he shoots 38.5% from beyond the arc for his career. Bowen is another, but he shoots 39.3% from beyond the arc. Greene shoots just 29.6% from 3 pt land, and a pitiful 37.4% overall. If you going to be on the floor at the SF position, you have to be able to shoot better than that. It doesn't do any good to spread the floor if the other team isn't going to guard you. If you have him on the floor with Tyreke, then you have two players on the floor that the other team is going to dare to shoot from out there. That means the middle is going to get very clogged and players like Cousins, Thompson, and Landry are going to get doubled every time.

I don't have a problem with Dalembert. I've stated that I hope the Kings can resign him for a decent price. He'll get his points on putbacks, alleyopps, etc. I just don't know if he'll be happy with a reduced backup role. And if not, then if might be better if he moves on, rather than have an unhappy player on the team.

If I were Greene, I would be in the gym every bit of free time I had shooting jumpers. And the next offseason, I would hire a shooting coach and spend the entire summer working on my offense. Because thats the only thing keeping him off the floor right now.

This has never been about Greene's defense. It about his lack of ability to play both ends of the floor.
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So in essence you are saying that Donte is not that efficient offensively, so therefore we need someone who is more efficient offensively in the game.

Bull****.

Let me give you this little example. You play Taylor and match him up against Kobe. Taylor is able to score more efficiently than Donte, but on the other end of the ball Kobe is going off for a triple double and high fg% and the Kings get blown out. Now if Donte had been in the game, Kobe would have gotten his 26 pts but on a low fg% and only 5 rebs and 4 assists, and the game ends up being closer instead of a blowout because Kobe is not in his comfort zone and has to work harder, yet Donte scores 8 pts on 9 shots so his fg% is low and he misses some fts (as usual) and you come on here and lament how if Donte could have hit a couple of those wide open threes we might have won.

Do you see the difference? The Kings had a better chance to WIN because the other team had to work harder but the flip is the Kings shot a lower %. The Kings scored less pts but so did the opposing team due to a defense heavy lineup. Now in so being this way, Donte has more of a chance to work on his shot IN THE FLOW OF THE GAME WHEN IT MATTERS, as opposed to in the gym with no defense and/or pressure to throw off his concentration.

I understand he is in his 3rd year and has shown minimal improvement from his last, but he IS still young and you don't just mess with his confidence the way Westphal has. Bring him off the bench, he is not starter material yet. But for the sake of Naismith, PLAY THE GUY so he can get the experience and playing time that way we will know (before he is traded and pulls a Gerald Wallace on us<yes I know GW wasn't traded>) if he is going to make it in this league.
 
Respect? I'm sorry but it has to be earned. When we can stop letting teams shoot 55+ percent on us then we can give some respect to the defense. Donte isn't that good of a defender as he is made out to be, tell me what you want but I won't agree with you with whatever stats you throw at me. Dalembert has his good games but he also has his games where he looks lost and just timid. I have to admit, this thread is pretty pointless but I guess there's nothing else to talk about these days.
 
kingsboi said:
Respect? I'm sorry but it has to be earned. When we can stop letting teams shoot 55+ percent on us then we can give some respect to the defense. Donte isn't that good of a defender as he is made out to be, tell me what you want but I won't agree with you with whatever stats you throw at me. Dalembert has his good games but he also has his games where he looks lost and just timid. I have to admit, this thread is pretty pointless but I guess there's nothing else to talk about these days.
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Well if you can't be swayed by logic or stats, and you can't see the point of it, you are more than welcome to leave.

The sky is not less blue because the blind man does not see it.
 
Bricklayer said:
Well if you can't be swayed by logic or stats, and you can't see the point of it, you are more than welcome to leave.

The sky is not less blue because the blind man does not see it.
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It's fine if we disagree on something, doesn't mean the sky is falling or something. You obviously are entitled to your opinion as I am with mine.
 
Dalembert Violation:Defensive Goaltending


20101103LALSAC 375 00:08:36 [SAC] Dalembert Violation:Defensive Goaltending
20101106MEMSAC 229 00:21:08 [SAC] Dalembert Violation:Defensive Goaltending
20101119NJNSAC 14 00:45:51 [SAC] Dalembert Violation:Defensive Goaltending
20101121NOHSAC 7 00:47:03 [SAC] Dalembert Violation:Defensive Goaltending
20101122SACUTA 206 00:25:16 [SAC] Dalembert Violation:Defensive Goaltending
20101125SACLAC 33 00:43:16 [SAC] Dalembert Violation:Defensive Goaltending
20101204DALSAC 268 00:16:01 [SAC] Dalembert Violation:Defensive Goaltending
20101206SACLAC 130 00:34:12 [SAC] Dalembert Violation:Defensive Goaltending
20101206SACLAC 297 00:17:22 [SAC] Dalembert Violation:Defensive Goaltending
20101211MIASAC 406 00:04:57 [SAC] Dalembert Violation:Defensive Goaltending
20101219HOUSAC 345 00:11:04 [SAC] Dalembert Violation:Defensive Goaltending
20101223MILSAC 202 00:28:34 [SAC] Dalembert Violation:Defensive Goaltending
20101227LACSAC 389 00:03:02 [SAC] Dalembert Violation:Defensive Goaltending
 
So much for "respect" to our defenders. What have other teams been averaging the last 10 games or so? 110+ points is it?
 
kingsboi said:
So much for "respect" to our defenders. What have other teams been averaging the last 10 games or so? 110+ points is it?
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I think that's the point. Over the last 10 games Donte has hardly played and Sam's minutes have been reduced, thus the 110+ points a game
 
That explains the other teams scoring more points against us. What explains our scoring more points on them? Where should we go with all this, respect aside.
 
Westphal stopped playing Donte the 29th of December. Seven games have been played since then. The record is 3-4. On average the team has scored 107 points per game during that stretch. The prior seven games Donte played in the 20s in minutes. The record: 0-7. The number of points on average scored by the Kings during that stretch: 92.
The numbers speak for themselves.
 
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