Tell me if this trade makes sense

[Darth Divac]

Kings recieve:
Nikola Vucevic
Moe Harkless

Magic recieve:
Demarcus Cousins




Magic Lineup

PG Nelson
SG Affalo
C Cousins
PF Glen Davis?
SF Harris

Kings Lineup

PG Thomas
SG Evans
C Vucevic
SF Harkless
PF Patterson/Thompson

 

[Capt. Factorial]

No.

It is absolutely inconceivable to send away Cousins to get back Vucevic and Harkless.

 

[Darth Divac]

Why not? They're both good players. Vucevic is a great rebounder and his jumpshot alows him to provide spacing for guys like Reke. Harkless is the ace defensive wing we've been praying for and he isn't a bad scorer or rebounder, either. Yes, Cousins may be among the best centers, but Vucevic and Harkless are two excellent players with fairly high ceilings. They'll never be stars, but they're great starters and perfect pieces to fit around our true star, Reke.

 

[The_Jamal]

It doesn't make sense for anyone.

Kings would only do this if Cousins started a riot and demanded to be traded. We would be looking for any scrap deal we could find and these would be the kind of offers we would be getting.

Suns would not give up on their first round pick this year already, especially a PG.

Magic just got rid of a cancerous C. I don't see them lining up to get a guy who's had nothing but problems since he stepped on the NBA hardwood.

 

[hrdboild]

I like Vucevic and Harkless, this is an interesting idea. Firstly I'm not sure Orlando takes this deal. Cousins, for all his potential, also carries a fair amount of risk at this point in his career whereas Vucevic has been a real bright spot for them and Harkless has already shown that at least his defense is translating. I think you're in the vicinity of something plausible though, it just comes down to whether you believe Vucevic is for real this year, whether you believe Cousins has topped out or still has room to grow, and how much value you put on a SF who does most of his damage on the boards and on the defensive side of the floor. I haven't been watching Orlando so I'm just looking at the stats for Vucevic, but I did see him play at USC and I think he has more offensive potential than he's shown so far in his NBA career. He's a top 5 rebounder this season but is that sustainable or is that because of the team he's playing on? I could see this deal going either way -- I don't think it's overly lopsided one way or another. And lacking a crystal ball, I'm not going to presume to know which of these guys will have the better career.

My gut says though that Cousins is worth holding onto, Orlando probably feels the same way about Vucevic, and I've love to have Harkless (he was near the top of my wish list in the last draft) but I think there might be a way to get him which won't cost us our franchise center.

 

[Darth Divac]

I like Vucevic and Harkless, this is an interesting idea. Firstly I'm not sure Orlando takes this deal. Cousins, for all his potential, also carries a fair amount of risk at this point in his career whereas Vucevic has been a real bright spot for them and Harkless has already shown that at least his defense is translating. I think you're in the vicinity of something plausible though, it just comes down to whether you believe Vucevic is for real this year, whether you believe Cousins has topped out or still has room to grow, and how much value you put on a SF who does most of his damage on the boards and on the defensive side of the floor. I haven't been watching Orlando so I'm just looking at the stats for Vucevic, but I did see him play at USC and I think he has more offensive potential than he's shown so far in his NBA career. He's a top 5 rebounder this season but is that sustainable or is that because of the team he's playing on? I could see this deal going either way -- I don't think it's overly lopsided one way or another. And lacking a crystal ball, I'm not going to presume to know which of these guys will have the better career.

My gut says though that Cousins is worth holding onto, Orlando probably feels the same way about Vucevic, and I've love to have Harkless (he was near the top of my wish list in the last draft) but I think there might be a way to get him which won't cost us our franchise center.

That's what I was trying to figure out, and this is the best one I could think up.

 

[kingjatt]

i wouldnt do it, next years first rounder from the magic thrown in and it would be harder to turn down, they would never do that though unless they feel like they can tame Cuz.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Why not? They're both good players. Vucevic is a great rebounder and his jumpshot alows him to provide spacing for guys like Reke. Harkless is the ace defensive wing we've been praying for and he isn't a bad scorer or rebounder, either. Yes, Cousins may be among the best centers, but Vucevic and Harkless are two excellent players with fairly high ceilings. They'll never be stars, but they're great starters and perfect pieces to fit around our true star, Reke.

Not to be hyperbolic, but this is like asking if in the summer of 2000 the Spurs ought to have traded Tim Duncan for Radoslav Nesterovic and James Posey. Duncan was the up-and-coming best big man in the game coming off of his third season (Cousins), Nesterovic was a promising C drafted in the mid-teens coming off of his second year (Vucevic) and Posey was a rookie SF (Harkless).

That deal would have been terrible for the Spurs. And I'm not saying it's a perfect analogy, but the only reason anybody even wants to dump Cousins at all is because he gets a bunch of technical fouls. But you know what? He's still 112 techs behind Kevin Garnett, and nobody ever traded that guy because he was a hothead.

 

[Spike]

Not to be hyperbolic, but this is like asking if in the summer of 2000 the Spurs ought to have traded Tim Duncan for Radoslav Nesterovic and James Posey. Duncan was the up-and-coming best big man in the game coming off of his third season (Cousins), Nesterovic was a promising C drafted in the mid-teens coming off of his second year (Vucevic) and Posey was a rookie SF (Harkless).

That deal would have been terrible for the Spurs. And I'm not saying it's a perfect analogy, but the only reason anybody even wants to dump Cousins at all is because he gets a bunch of technical fouls. But you know what? He's still 112 techs behind Kevin Garnett, and nobody ever traded that guy because he was a hothead.

Only 112 away?

 

[Padrino]

Why not? They're both good players. Vucevic is a great rebounder and his jumpshot alows him to provide spacing for guys like Reke. Harkless is the ace defensive wing we've been praying for and he isn't a bad scorer or rebounder, either. Yes, Cousins may be among the best centers, but Vucevic and Harkless are two excellent players with fairly high ceilings. They'll never be stars, but they're great starters and perfect pieces to fit around our true star, Reke.

your avatar says it all, friend. if you're serious about competing for a title in the contemporary nba, ya need at least two. 'reke and vucevic and harkless is nice, but it's potential is less than 'reke and cousins, both of whom already wear kings uniforms...

 

[hrdboild]

Not to be hyperbolic, but this is like asking if in the summer of 2000 the Spurs ought to have traded Tim Duncan for Radoslav Nesterovic and James Posey. Duncan was the up-and-coming best big man in the game coming off of his third season (Cousins), Nesterovic was a promising C drafted in the mid-teens coming off of his second year (Vucevic) and Posey was a rookie SF (Harkless).

That deal would have been terrible for the Spurs. And I'm not saying it's a perfect analogy, but the only reason anybody even wants to dump Cousins at all is because he gets a bunch of technical fouls. But you know what? He's still 112 techs behind Kevin Garnett, and nobody ever traded that guy because he was a hothead.

Nesterovic in his second season averaged 5.7pts, 4.6rebs, 1.1asst, 0.3stl, 1blk
Vucevic in his second season is averaging 12.4pts, 11.5rebs, 1.8asst, 0.7stl, 1blk

Aside from the similarity in their last names, what is the basis for this comparison? Because the numbers say that Vucevic is actually having a better season than Cousins is and he's younger and not second in the league in technical fouls and ejections. Now numbers aren't everything, but if you're going to jump all over someone for proposing trades you can at least be fair about it.

EDIT -- Scratch that, same age. I forgot that Vucevic entered the draft as a junior.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Aside from the similarity in their last names, what is the basis for this comparison?

You will note I said explicitly it was not a perfect analogy and a bit of hyperbole ("Not to be hyperbolic, but..."). It actually had nothing to do with their last names, I just grabbed a Center of the same relative draft class in the same draft range. To be fair, their per-36 numbers in their sophomore seasons are a bit more comparable as Vucevic is playing about 1.5x the minutes Rasho was. The rebounding numbers are striking, but recall that Rasho was playing next to Garnett while Vucevic is playing next to...umm...hold on, I have to look this up...Big Baby, who is not even the #2 rebounder on the team (Harkless is).

The point was not in any way to be a direct statistical comparison anyhow. All I was saying is that this package is not what you try to get back if you're dealing one of the top young big men in the game and illustrated it by a package from 15 years ago that would have made no sense but at least has the same odor as the proposed deal.

 

[hrdboild]

You will note I said explicitly it was not a perfect analogy and a bit of hyperbole ("Not to be hyperbolic, but..."). It actually had nothing to do with their last names, I just grabbed a Center of the same relative draft class in the same draft range. To be fair, their per-36 numbers in their sophomore seasons are a bit more comparable as Vucevic is playing about 1.5x the minutes Rasho was. The rebounding numbers are striking, but recall that Rasho was playing next to Garnett while Vucevic is playing next to...umm...hold on, I have to look this up...Big Baby, who is not even the #2 rebounder on the team (Harkless is).

The point was not in any way to be a direct statistical comparison anyhow. All I was saying is that this package is not what you try to get back if you're dealing one of the top young big men in the game and illustrated it by a package from 15 years ago that would have made no sense but at least has the same odor as the proposed deal.

I get what you're saying, but you have to admit that looking at a rookie and a second year center, who happens to be having a great season bad team or no, and comparing them to career journeymen as if you can already predict their entire careers does seem like a bit of a stretch doesn't it? Some of you are acting like this trade is ridiculous and of course we all know how much potential Cousins has, but if you look around the league are there any young centers who are having a better year than Vucevic right now? I'm skeptical too whether he can keep up this level of production but I'm also willing to give credit where it's due. I saw where you said that it wasn't a perfect analogy. I was pointing out that it was also a misleading one.

 

[Tetsujin]

Kings recieve:
Nikola Vucevic
Moe Harkless

Magic recieve:
Demarcus Cousins




Magic Lineup

PG Nelson
SG Affalo
C Cousins
PF Glen Davis?
SF Harris

Kings Lineup

PG Thomas
SG Evans
C Vucevic
SF Harkless
PF Patterson/Thompson

Might as well send Reke and a few draft picks along with Cuz to sweeten the deal. Jeebus.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

y ya'll feeding the troll?

 

[VF21]

y ya'll feeding the troll?

Knock it off. If you don't want to participate in his thread, just move on.

 

[DesertFox]

From a raw trade perspective, yes it makes sense. Move's Cuz's upside for a SF with upside, and lose some volatility too. I wouldn't do it, but it's not totally unfair.

But when you consider the teams involved, it doesn't really make sense. Cuz needs an established team, not the Magic. The Kings also add more youth, and the difference between Harkless and guys like Greene/Casspi back in the day isn't so huge. And this move suggests Reke as the star to build around, which is possible, but the team has so far done everything opposite of suggesting that.

 

[hrdboild]

That's what I was trying to figure out, and this is the best one I could think up.

Clearly I'm in the minority here but I think it's a reasonable deal. We'd be exchanging the risk of Cousins' attitude never catching up to his talent for the risk of Vucevic regressing back to the league average center most expected him to be and Harkless never improving his all-around game enough to be a star. I rated both of them higher than most coming out of college so I like the idea but ultimately I don't think we can afford to give up on Cousins' talent yet. Vucevic may be untouchable anyway after the season he's had. But if we can get Harkless to plug into our gaping whole at SF and keep Cousins and Tyreke we'd be getting somewhere.

Trade-wise we really only have three options: Jason Thompson, Marcus Thornton, and Isaiah Thomas. Orlando may bite on one of them since they're all productive players. I mentioned Harkless in the coaching thread earlier as a possible target and the only reason I think Orlando might be persuaded to part with him is that he shares a position with Tobias Harris who's also young and talented and really playing well for them right now. Alternatively I'd consider trading them our pick this year if we can't get McLemore, Noel, Oladipo, or Porter. After those four I like Harkless better than the rest of the lottery guys this year.

 

[TyFreak Evans]

I am not the biggest of fans when it comes to Mr. Cousins. But, I would not do this trade just because I do honestly believe the dude has more talent than most in the league today. I say give him a shot to prove his worthiness and clean himself up a bit. If it goes too far then I would not mind exploring a deal, but it has to be right and it has to yield us at least an equal amount of potential, talent wise, as the one produced by DeMarcus Cousins. All of that, of course, without the attitude...But I am willing to wait a bit longer on D-Cuz...

 

[Gilles]

I would rather get a very good coach and let him evaluate this roster until the next deadline at least. Adding decent SF or shipping off some ball-dominant guys would be ok though.