bajaden
Hall of Famer
I think he qualified it by saying that he was almost as good as Schrempf until Schrempf really came into his own in his late 20's.
Starting at the 3?
- Thread starter vistacruza_kings
- Start date
I think he qualified it by saying that he was almost as good as Schrempf until Schrempf really came into his own in his late 20's.
Gliesian
Bench
The role player argument looks nice (if you are all about Evans) but let's be real- Evans needs another great player alongside him and Jason Thompson, and that could easily be Martin, Donte, or Casspi. All three are amazing basketball players, and Garcia is just above average. A role player should never be mistake-prone as Garcia has been and your starters should be your best players, with the exception of perhaps one slot. I'd be fine with Martin coming off the bench, but Garcia starting? Comon now... Beno has already proven to be a great role player alongside Evans. I'm down to give Garcia a few chances but I'm almost positive it won't be our most effective starting lineup. Even if you take matchups into consideration, Donte is a better defender and Casspi will be a better scorer.
That remains to be seen.
Emma
Starter
You're almost completely right. Casspi is always an adequate to good defender. The difference is Greene's length and explosive quickness. Donte may be more inconsistent, but he has shown himself to be a potentially great defender.
Kingsfan98
Prospect
You cannot compare 5 games to 25. That was the beginning of the season and this team had not meshed at all. Just think about the growth that has occurred in these young players in the last 20 games. Martin is a fantastic second or third guy on a really good team. I've always felt that way. Please explain to me why you think Kevin is going to come back and demand the ball on every possession, he didn't even do that when the team needed him to. He is a very unselfish player as well as one of the best shooters in the NBA. Tyreke's game perfectly complements Kevin's. Tyreke's drive and kick could become deadly with Kevin on the floor. The defenders have to respect both of them, which will free up other players if they can both draw double teams. Why does everyone want to trade Kevin before he even gets a chance to play and mesh with this team? I will admit that defensively he was a liability, but now that the scoring burden is off of his shoulders and he has some actual talent to play with he may be able to expend more energy on that side of the ball. He is long, quick, and athletic, so there really is no reason for him to be a bad defender. We will see, I don't think Petrie will pull the trigger on any trades until Kevin is back in uniform.
Gary
All-Star
I believe it did because Evans works better when he has another ball handler in the back court..
Back on topic.. I like Omri, but yah.. Greene's D is somethign of beauty when he's playing it.
steelevt
All-Star
i dont know why so many are ready to point out martin's flaws and disregards what he can bring to the team. all these years i've read kevin would make a great #2 guy, and now when he can be, you are all ready to trade him. i'm with those who will actually wait and see what happens when he comes back. to actually have 2 goods scoring options. dont you think it would be harder for teams to just double team evans knowing martin is out there? evans won the bucks game for us, so what do the cavs do? they put lebron on him or double him at the end of the game and he cant even get a decent shot off. can they do that if kevin is waiting to knock down a 3? sometimes i just dont understand some of the people on this thread. we have kevin and want an allstar to play beside him, so we get a really good rookie to play beside him, but change our minds and would rather start cisco?
mr. moustache
Bench
Sac.Kings
All-Star
I think Martin's game will a good compliment to Tyreke's, except one misfit that might be able to cause a problem. Martin is not a good ballhandler and in pressure situations this might present a problem. If Tyreke learns to run the team, we can rely on his ballhandling skills, but as of right now Tyreke has the tendency to dribble too long and doesn't get the team set. This is the only quirk i can think of. Other than this, Martin's type of game is suited for a second fiddle type of role. He is going to be the receiver of many passes when Reke's in the game, and he is efficient in finishing. He's also great at drawing fouls, which we have needed from time to time this season. I just don't see too many problems with a Martin-Reke backcourt (on paper anyway). I don't worry too much about Martin's D, because Westphal will take him out if he isn't trying, or if we need defense in there (Greene, Garcia, even Casspi). That's one of the great things about Westphal, that for the most part, he is very good at using the personnel on the team. Martin will come off the bench for the first few games and slowly intergrate with the team. He is not going to demand minutes coming off of injury (ala T-mac). I have to say im looking forward to how this works out.
vistacruza_kings
Bench
totally agree with this post 100%. last year everyone was saying kevin was good but he should not be the the #1 guy, but rather the 3rd or 2nd option. now he can be that guy and everyone want him out. i believe the REAL REASON everyone wants k-mart gone is because they are afraid of what STATS he will take away from Evans, instead of how the team plays as a whole. sound correct??
beb0p
Starter
That's because 4 of the 5 opponents Kings faced with Martin are .500 or better teams. In other words, good teams who play above average to great defense. Only 14 of the 25 teams faced by the Kings w/o Martin are .500 or better teams. Naturally you're not going to score as many points against the Spurs/Hawks/Hornets as opposed to the Warriors/Nets/Timberwolves.
.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
The larger problem was that Kevin was taking every single damn shot and the entire offense was designed to let him take every single damn shot. Good for Kevin's numbers, no good for the team as a whole. Kevin scored 30 on ****ty shooting, nobody else scored more than 11. That doesn't even work with superstar level players, let alone players of Kevin's grade. Basically the Stackhouse in Detroit syndrome.
As an aside, those are solid defensive teams, but hardly elite ones this season -- 9th (OKC), 10th (SAS), 12th (ATL), 19th (NOH) and 25th (MEM) in points allowed, which works out to exactly average overall -- 9+10+12+19+25 = 75/5 = average of 15th.
Believe what you want, I am not obsessed with Tyreke getting big numbers, winning ROY, being an all-star out of the gate, etc. Never have been, you don't see me posting in those threads. I just want the Kings to win again and I think our best chances are with the players we've been playing lately plus some help up front and I think moving Martin can get us that help because he is actually a good player that another team that is desperate to make a move might sacrifice a better player they can't keep or pay to get.totally agree with this post 100%. last year everyone was saying kevin was good but he should not be the the #1 guy, but rather the 3rd or 2nd option. now he can be that guy and everyone want him out. i believe the REAL REASON everyone wants k-mart gone is because they are afraid of what STATS he will take away from Evans, instead of how the team plays as a whole. sound correct??
It doesn't?
Over those five games, Kevin used 26.5% of the Kings' possessions (FGA + 0.44*FTA), scored 30.2% of the team's points and committed 20% of the team's turnovers.
Over the course of this season, Kobe Bryant has used 27.5% of the Lakers' possessions, scored 29.2% of the team's points, and committed 21.5% of the team's turnovers.
So Kobe, the first superstar-level player I checked, uses more possessions than Kevin did, doesn't score as high of a percentage of his team's points, and turns the ball over more. Seems to be working for the Lakers.
hammystyle
Starter
% of team's points is a bad data point. Doesn't that help the argument that Martin's scoring comes at the detriment of his teammates?
drboiffard
Bench
Omri is better player than Greene and he only needs to adapt to NBA schedule and keep concentration in every game. In two years he'll be a f*cking machine.
Greene deffends a lot better, but Omri's deffense is not bad at all. In fact, Omri's deffense is better than Greene attack.
Almost all games Lakers have lost this year were because Kobe went all-star and nobody else played in attack. This is still a team sport.
However if this continues like this, someday there won't be play-offs and the only title for wich everyone will play will be the MVP. Ring, what ring? We want the franchise player to have atonishing numbers!
Greene deffends a lot better, but Omri's deffense is not bad at all. In fact, Omri's deffense is better than Greene attack.
Almost all games Lakers have lost this year were because Kobe went all-star and nobody else played in attack. This is still a team sport.
However if this continues like this, someday there won't be play-offs and the only title for wich everyone will play will be the MVP. Ring, what ring? We want the franchise player to have atonishing numbers!
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You know, at the moment you start to construct any argument that involves Kevin Martin in comparison to Kobe Bryant you should just check yourself before you even begin.
But as a Kevin partisan, you will not. So I will have to explain the curious gap between stats mongering and real life that afflicts Kevin analysis. In many ways Kevin is the ultimate case of empty stats. Arguments about Kevin's effectiveness are similar to ones comparing Zach Randolph to Tim Duncan, and saying, hey, both 20-10 guys right! Wrong.
Its not really that hard. 1) Kevin does nothing but score. The true stars do everything else as well. Kevin actively hurts his team when not scoring. The true stars are often carrying their teams when not scoring. 2) Kevin makes nobody better. This of course being the x-factor in the offensive stats. He makes nobody better, never has. Not only is he not a good creater, but he scares no other team because they know this, and so he hardly ever draws extra attention. Kobe Bryant scores 30 in the face of constant double teams, which he can and will beat with the pass when he does not just do something ridiculous himself. Kevin scores 30 wihtout drawing much extra attentiona at all. So nobody on the team gets open because of it. On top of which Kevin is not going to very effectively set anybody else up to score. He's not effective off the bounce. So again, nobody else benefits when he has the ball. Kevin's numbers go up, nobody else's do. By his 7th NBA game (the game after the Utah/Deron spanking) Tyrkee Evans was already a bigger benefit to his teammates than Kevin has been in 6 years uin the league. He was already drawing doubles. Already bending the defense. And Steve Nash or not, is a very capable passer able to beat those doubles and hit open shooters.
End result, Kobe scores 30, and there is still room for Pau Gasol to benefit. Lebron scores 30, there is still room for Mo Williams (but it should be noted that Lebron has not been able to get over the top preceisely because of not enough support from teammates -- great as he is, you would be hard pressed to term their offense a great success). Kevin scores 30, and everybody else on the team's offense was actually DEPRESSED. Nobody was shooting even 40%. Nobody else touched the ball, nobody got into a rhtyhm, nobody got open because of Kevin, and because Keivn can't create consistently wiht his own dribble, everybody was spending their time setting screens for him.
You want a stat that could truly explain things for perimeter players, look for something like pts per assist. You cannot have a player scoring 15 times for himself for every 1 time he creates for teammates dominating the ball. It is impossible. It has never ever worked. As in ever. Its why Kevin is a #2/#3 player and not a #1. Somebody who helps others has to be your #1. That assist stat is the absolutely critical yet somehow often unrecognized sign of a true star level player who you can build around. If you look at a Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, Kobe Bryant (and note Kobe had to lern about tema before he could win without Shaq), LeBron, Johnson, Roy, Pierce etc. player, they all rack up assists while they score. They all make others better, draw huge attention, and can beat it.
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The Lakers also allow their opponents to only score at a 43% rate. The Kings with or without Martin seem to be around 47%. So I'm not sure why the conversation is about what color to paint the wall when the floor has lots of holes...
vistacruza_kings
Bench
WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??
Kevin has never been known for taking to many shots!!! He is actually known for scoring on few shot attempts. If he took 20 shots a night like Kobe, Carmello, D-Wade no doubt he would average 30+ppg just like them.
O and anyone that draws conclusions of this team from the first 5 games should not be taken seriously. i mean common, we had sean may and desmond mason starting bahahaha.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You know, I was going to prepare something more scathing about Kevin and his shot attempts (you do realize that FTs take possessions too don't you?) -- and BTW he is in fact averaging 22.2 FGA so far this season, along wiht 9.8FT attempts, so about 28 shots a game...
But then I realized that you are just being very silly and a serious response would do little good.
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kennadog
Dog On It!
I happen to really like both players, so I'm not taking sides, yet. But Donte is younger, taller and more athletic. In two years he could be a ****ing machine, too. At least that's a nice problem to have.
So you wouldn't want Kobe or LeBron on your team? I think you have it backwards. It is a team sport, but all team members aren't equal. Each member has a role on the team. The way in which they contribute to the team's success or failure. The history of NBA championships has been that those teams won championships because they had at least one "franchise" player that had astonishing numbers, not because they didn't.
You know, I was going to prepare something more scathing about Kevin and his shot attempts (you do realize that FTs take possessions too don't you?) -- and BTW he is in fact averaging 22.2 FGA so far this season, along wiht 9.8FT attempts, so about 28 shots a game...
But then I realized that you are just being very silly and a serious response would do little good.
And you, dear Bricklayer, are STILL singing the same song about Martin that you have from the very beginning. Let's be honest here... As much as some of us are, according to you, no more than "Kevin partisans" you didn't like his pick, didn't think he'd ever amount to anything in the NBA, most likely wouldn't sign a second contract and would never start. I could continue but why? (And I might not have the exact terminology of any of those predictions right but it's been a constant that you would go after anyone who has been pro-Martin.
Kevin Martin is not the devil incarnate. We have no idea other than speculation on how he's going to work out in this completely revised atmosphere. You keep saying that he was part of the 17-win team. Paul Pierce was part of the Boston team that was pretty embarrassing, too. That isn't equating the two players, BTW. It's equating the situations.
As forceful as you are with your opinions, they aren't the only ones that should be considered. None of this is cast in stone; it's all subject to a lot of variables none of us know or have any control over.
Kevin is anxious to return to the team; he's a team player and he's going to do everything he possibly can to help the team. And Westphal is really looking forward to having him out there. That's good enough for me for right now. And I think we - the Kevin partisans - should be able to post our thoughts on it without always having to be told we're homers, we're blind partisans, we're silly, etc.
/remove soap box
P.S. Bringing up his statistics for the first 5 games of this season is pretty unfair, considering how raw the new group of players was at that point.
/remove soap box again
Oskor
Bench
While I agree with your post I disagree about Kobe (or maybe it's just my Kobe hatred). Kobe won a championship cause Pau fell on his lap and put his team over the top. If you look to his assist numbers you'll see he was dishing out more assists in the Lakers worst season this decade (04-05 season).
Is Kobe great? Sure... but the guy is not winning now because he makes his team much better than he did 5 years ago.
vistacruza_kings
Bench
You know, I was going to prepare something more scathing about Kevin and his shot attempts (you do realize that FTs take possessions too don't you?) -- and BTW he is in fact averaging 22.2 FGA so far this season, along wiht 9.8FT attempts, so about 28 shots a game...
But then I realized that you are just being very silly and a serious response would do little good.
judging a player on 5 games?? u just lost all your credibility there. free throws are not shot atempts, they are if fact "free points" or at least they should be. How could u judge a player negativly based on averaging 9.8FT a game?? THATS ALMOST 10 FREE POINTS A GAME!
You could even make the arguement that he is a more efficient scorer then Kobe Bryant. The stats dont lie!
vistacruza_kings
Bench
here are the stats from last year
Kobe Bryant averaged 26ppg on on 20 shots per game
Kevin Martin averaged 24ppg on 15 shots per game
Kobe took 5 more shots a game to get 2pts more then K-Mart
Kobe Bryant averaged 26ppg on on 20 shots per game
Kevin Martin averaged 24ppg on 15 shots per game
Kobe took 5 more shots a game to get 2pts more then K-Mart
drboiffard
Bench
I also like them both and I also think it's a nice problem to have. I think Greene can develop into a great player also, but it's only a possibilty. Omri is right now a great player and he'd be a solid guy from the bench even in a contendent team. It's the obvious option.
I didn't want to say that superstars aren't necessary: of course they are the ones who make differences and gives the championships.
But I don't like selfish players, I like ball movement.
I feel that teams usually start building the house by the roof, developing one-man offenses to highlight franchise players who are not good enough to win a PO match by himselves usually sucks and leads to defeats, and misuse and underdevelop other players.
If you have Jordan or LeBron it's OK to have a almost-one-man offense and let them throw everything. But if you have Brandon Roy, you don't win even a PO series.
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beb0p
Starter
When did KMart scored 30+ pts and nobody else scored more than 11? I can't remember that ever happened. Maybe you're just saying it in jest. And no, the offense is not designed to let KMart take every shot but he's a good scorer so I suppose there are times when it seems like he's taking a lot of shots. It's only natural for good scorers to score. However, up until last season when the Kings became a selfish one on three teams, KMart has always been a guy who takes shots within the offense. He can be that guy again because I think it's his comfort zone to play in a structure offense instead of a chaotic 1v1 one.
Somehow I detect a tendency to treat KMart as if he's John Salmons. The later is a ball hogging selfish volume shooter and the former is an efficient scorer who doesn't need the ball until the last moment. Really, Until last season when all the wheels fell out of the wagon, KMart has always been a guy who is happy to move the ball and play within the offense. He never racks up assist because he is not good at driving and kicking but he willingly keep the ball moving when he didn't have a shot.
That's not to say KMart is surely going to jell with Evans. But you have to let them try.
And the rest of the schedule averaged to be 17th. Only natural to scoring a bit more pts against 17th than 15th and factoring in that the team got used to each other as the season goes along.
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vistacruza_kings
Bench
Kevin Martin even says it himself in this video that it is not about SCORING, it is about helping the TEAM win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPVfXoP7fXQ
also one thing to note, kevin has improved his game every year, and hes only 26!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPVfXoP7fXQ
also one thing to note, kevin has improved his game every year, and hes only 26!
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Not only do you not have the exact terminology right, as usual wiht Kevin supporters you are dead wrong. Go back, search to your heart;s content, and try to find the post where I panned the Kevin pick. I SUPPORTED the Kevin pick. It was no shot of Geoff genius out of the dark as various idiots make it out to be -- Kevin was a popular sleeper as a late round pick that year. It was very much like the Gerald Wallace situation, or Omri this year, somebody was going to not outsmart themselves and just take him.
You would also, if you took time to do the research, find the posts where I defended poor little Kevie from the meanies who wanted to give him the boot after his first patheitc season. I did not do so because I necessarily thought Kevin was going to be anything special -- he had shown exactly jack and squat at that point. But I did defend him on the same principle I was defending Donte Green over this past summer (while you yourself were trying to throw him, under the bus) -- you don't toss away kids with potential after one ****ty rookie season.
The rest of your assertions combine baseless fantasies of persecution with ridiculous speculation.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Those were the team's averages at the point that Kevin went down. He scored. Nobody else did. We lost.
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