starks and bigbadred discuss offense v. defense (split from trade thread)

[bigbadred00]

with or without artest and bunch of solid players we will not win a title.....we will play ugly and we'll be team that nobody like to watch....we need superstar player, leader who plays on both ends....btw defence is overrated....

wow....i like watching this team a lot more than I liked watching the team that started the year with. blowing leads, not defending anyone. i loved watching the old kings teams of the early 2000s even more but that team isn't here any more.

defence is overrated? are you seriously ...i don't know...do you seriously know anything about the nba? when's the last time a team that didn't play great D won the title? it's been since the 80s. SA/Det play great D, Lakers played pretty damn good D, Bulls played D, Detroit and Houston played D. Honestly if you don't play D you don't win. it's a fact. learn to deal with it.

look at the sonics this year, absolutely no D. how bad are they? they are AWFUL. defense wins titles in all sports. you can try to forget about it, but all your going to do is get destroyed, year in and year out.

artest might not be a full blown superstar but he's a top 5 defender and easily a top 20 player, some have argued top 10. what more do you want?

we thought we could build around peja, didn't work. atleast with artest we can build around something that wins titles.

again look at all the title winners over the last 16 years. all had atleast 1 great defender, some had more:

Detroit-Everyone who started
SA-Everyone who started but Parker
Lakers-Shaq, Kobe, Fox all great defenders
Houston-Hakeem and probally others (didn't really follow them)
Chicago-Grant, Pippen, MJ
Detroit-Everyone

you might want to discount D, but D wins. your just showing your ignorance left and right.

 

[bigbadred00]

starks and bigbadred discuss offense v. defense split from trade thread)

I don't care for the current Kings vs. Suns trade debate or whatever has hijacked this thread. But I have to call the bull**** card on this one. I really do. This whole "playmaker" PG thing has really gotten out of hand. Not every PG in the league averages 10 assists per game. Not every PG in this leage is above average defender. In fact, I would submit, most aren't. This whole Bibby should be traded for Delonte West madness needs to stop, IMO.

Sorry, I just had to rant.

there are what 4 real pgs in the league. the rest are combo guards. deal with it guys.

Kidd, Nash, Billups and Paul are the only true PGs. The rest are combo guards. Billups was considered a combo guard most of his career.

 

[starks]

wow....i like watching this team a lot more than I liked watching the team that started the year with. blowing leads, not defending anyone. i loved watching the old kings teams of the early 2000s even more but that team isn't here any more.

defence is overrated? are you seriously ...i don't know...do you seriously know anything about the nba? when's the last time a team that didn't play great D won the title? it's been since the 80s. SA/Det play great D, Lakers played pretty damn good D, Bulls played D, Detroit and Houston played D. Honestly if you don't play D you don't win. it's a fact. learn to deal with it.

look at the sonics this year, absolutely no D. how bad are they? they are AWFUL. defense wins titles in all sports. you can try to forget about it, but all your going to do is get destroyed, year in and year out.

artest might not be a full blown superstar but he's a top 5 defender and easily a top 20 player, some have argued top 10. what more do you want?

we thought we could build around peja, didn't work. atleast with artest we can build around something that wins titles.

again look at all the title winners over the last 16 years. all had atleast 1 great defender, some had more:

Detroit-Everyone who started
SA-Everyone who started but Parker
Lakers-Shaq, Kobe, Fox all great defenders
Houston-Hakeem and probally others (didn't really follow them)
Chicago-Grant, Pippen, MJ
Detroit-Everyone

you might want to discount D, but D wins. your just showing your ignorance left and right.

Look we had that discussion on this board before.... and I posted stats that shows that 12 out of last 25 champions were good defensive teams but statistically they were better offensively (like magic's Lakers or 97 bulls)...but this is irrelevant...why I said that defense is overrated...take Bruce Bowen for example.... defensive player of the year but I guarantee you Kobe is better defender...same thing for b.wallce and Duncan

 

[bigbadred00]

Look we had that discussion on this board before.... and I posted stats that shows that 12 out of last 25 champions were good defensive teams but statistically they were better offensively (like magic's Lakers or 97 bulls)...but this is irrelevant...why I said that defense is overrated...take Bruce Bowen for example.... defensive player of the year but I guarantee you Kobe is better defender...same thing for b.wallce and Duncan

so how many of the champions were horrible defensive teams? it's 0. we were horrible pre-artest trade. you think nash is going to solve your defensive problems? did you watch the playoffs last year. you did see that even with Amare destroying things they lost what 4-1. kobe is a better defender? how on earth are you going to prove that to me? I'd say Artest is a better defender than Kobe. haven't the spurs and detroit won the last 3 titles where there best player has been on the all defensive first team? i don't really see where your going.

how bout the kings form a team with absolutely no D, see if they win. i can't believe I'm even having this argument.

this year we had the follow before ron came in. an average offence and top 5 worst D. now we have an average offence and a pretty good D and that's before bonzi gets back.

you can keep trying to win without D. i still want to see the suns win without D. but i don't see it happening.

 

[bigbadred00]

Somebody hijacked the TRADE thread?

Okay...

Am I the only one who sees the incredible irony in this?

he brought up nash, I said with Nash your team will be horrible defensively, then he says defence is overrated which makes NO sense in the NBA, even in the NFL, or Baseball it makes no sense. It might make sense in High School Basketball or something but that's about it. in any pro sport, defence dominates.

 

[starks]

I'm not saying without D but not D without O.... don’t be upset and don't take this argument too serious … question for you: last year final game, spurs-pistons, what prevailed: offense or defense?

 

[bigbadred00]

well you said D is overrated. no coincidence that two of the top defensive teams met in the finals last year? i think the spurs could play some of both (see Suns-Spurs series), but at the heart they are defensive oriented club.

i never said I'd prefer to watch a defensive oriented club lets say over the Kings in 2003 or 2002, i said I prefer to see the team win a title in Sacremento. ANd if we have to play D to do that, so be it.

 

[bigbadred00]

I'm not saying without D but not D without O.... don’t be upset and don't take this argument too serious … question for you: last year final game, spurs-pistons, what prevailed: offense or defense?

81-74? Isn't that D?

All games were below 102 between the two teams. i think Home ocourt really came into play.

 

[GoGoGadget]

D? O??

Nope.

Z.


THAT'S the real difference maker.

 

[starks]

i never said I'd prefer to watch a defensive oriented club lets say over the Kings in 2003 or 2002, i said I prefer to see the team win a title in Sacremento. ANd if we have to play D to do that, so be it.

same with me....If have to play slow and ugly, focused on defence and win it all, I'm OK with that.....but man, It's hard to watch

 

[AriesMar27]

i hate watching the pistons and spurs play.... i wouldnt pay to see them score 85 points..... you dont need a defensive powerhouse, just a team that can get stops when they need them..... and eliminate 2nd chance opportunities....

 

[kennadog]

i hate watching the pistons and spurs play.... i wouldnt pay to see them score 85 points..... you dont need a defensive powerhouse, just a team that can get stops when they need them..... and eliminate 2nd chance opportunities....

Me too. I'd rather a team with great offensive and good enough defense than one with great defense and good enough offense. I apreciate great defensive plays and some can be dazzling. The 02-03 Kings were a top defensive team and still had breathtaking offense. Yes, that team is gone, but I'd have to say it's my ideal.

 

[starks]

Also I hate totally controlled games where a coach calls every single play...like that guy from Indiana.... other day I watched indy-lal
(because of peja) and it was horrible.... Rick Carlisle uses every single time-out

 

[DeAtHrOw]

Also I hate totally controlled games where a coach calls every single play...like that guy from Indiana.... other day I watched indy-lal
(because of peja) and it was horrible.... Rick Carlisle uses every single time-out

That's as bad as a coach that does not use any (hint hint)

 

[zeke04]

remember when the name of the game was to just win. I can careless if they build a team with offense or defense just build me a champion. Build a team that will compete every night. You need both offense and defense to win.

Which one is more important? Depends...do I need a stop or a basket.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Chicago-Grant, Pippen, MJ

Couldnt agree more with ya on this...also, dont forget the 2nd Chicago title team and a guy named Rodman.

 

[starks]

yes but they were best offensive team with 105 ppg and good defensive team with 93 ppg

 

[starks]

or check this out: bulls 92:109.9 ppg, opponent 99.5ppg

 

[bigbadred00]

#4 in the league in FGA%. thus a top team.

 

[starks]

yeah... but offense was #1

 

[Bricklayer]

Amazing...I had generally assumed the last of the "we can win it all with offense" people had died out somewhere in the Cretaceous Period.

Its been 20 years now since a team that thought offense first won a title, and even they were underrated defensively. Heck, rarely happens in any sport, let alone bball (at least on this side of the pond -- sometimes get the feeling defense is considered impolite in other locales).

Now of all the great defensive teams will the one with the best offense win? Yeah. Should at least. But the defense is the base. And so in down years when there are no great combo teams you see pure defensive squads like Detroit or San Antonio grab the tile, not pure offensive squads like Dallas.

About the only time you ever see substandard defensive teams nab titles is at the tale end of dynasties when formerly dominant defensive teams are winding down but sitll think of themselves like champions and can pull out a key stop when needed.

 

[starks]

Or key basket when needed .....btw can you remember key defensive play from last finals?.....I can't......but I can remember Horry's three point shoot as key offensive play......I have few questions for defence experts:
1.is a great one on one defender great team defender at same time?
2. Why all great defensive minded teams are not good fast break teams (I mean more rebounds more opportunities)?
3. Can you have a great defensive team without superstar or at least all star player in paint?

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Even the greatest of 'offensive' title winners had damn good defenders....LA in the 80's had 3 of the best in Michael Cooper, AC Green and Kurt Rambis(I might even throw in Mychael Thompson there, too, he was damn tough)...without those guys on defense...do they still win like they did?

 

[starks]

Make up play-off finals, two fantasy teams, who would win?
Team A: great offense; zero defense
Bibby
Nash
Peja
Nowitzki
Iglauskas

Team B: great defense, bad offense (exception Artest):
E. Snow
Bowen
Artest
Howard
B. Wallace

 

[Coach]

The USC Trojans had a substandard defense in college football this year. They gave up 28 points or more to 4 different teams, and they gave up an average of 23 points a game.

But some people considered them the greatest college team of all time (at least until the Texas game), mostly because their offense was unreal, averaging over 49 points a game.

 

[sloter]

You don't need to be the best defensive team in the league, but in order to win you cannot be one of the worst defensive teams in the league, which the Kings still are, with or without Mr. Artest. The Kings defensive woes have been starting with Bibby for years, and ending usually with some sort of putbacks because we haven't been able to rebound for **** since Vlade left. So this whole offense vs. defense really makes no sense when the Kings aren't consistent at either.

 

[BMiller52]

Or key basket when needed .....btw can you remember key defensive play from last finals?.....I can't......but I can remember Horry's three point shoot as key offensive play......I have few questions for defence experts:
1.is a great one on one defender great team defender at same time?
2. Why all great defensive minded teams are not good fast break teams (I mean more rebounds more opportunities)?
3. Can you have a great defensive team without superstar or at least all star player in paint?

1. Sometimes. Ben Wallace is a good help defender and a good man to man defender.
2. That's not true. Detroit is a very good defensive team and they can fastbreak.
3. Detroit Pistons 2004-present.

 

[BMiller52]

Make up play-off finals, two fantasy teams, who would win?
Team A: great offense; zero defense
Bibby
Nash
Peja
Nowitzki
Iglauskas

Team B: great defense, bad offense (exception Artest):
E. Snow
Bowen
Artest
Howard
B. Wallace

That's not fair. The 3-5 is better for team B though. Give them a superstar that plays good defense like Kobe and they'd win.

 

[KingKong]

I can't believe this subject is even up for debate. Defense wins championships, period. Great defense is a beautiful thing to watch imo.

 

[BigWaxer]

Why do I repeat this every year since '02-'03 season.

We were not a "GREAT" defensive team in '02-'03.... Toss all the stats you want at me, but you will never convince me that we were a GREAT defensive team . Fact is we still could not at any one time that season stop someone if we had to. I will go one step further and say this will be the legacy of RA in Sacto... our defense is summed up by saying we could score like crazy, make just enough defensive plays and have enough fast break points to win games but not enough defensive presence to win when it mattered... AKA win a ring.

And I could care less which type of team we have (defensive or offensive) as long as we get that ring... I still think about how great it would be to sit on the cap steps for the championship parade.