Simmons on DMC and Reke's Trade value...what say you guys?
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
politics 101: ignore facts and/or reasoned argument, focus on outrage over trivial matters
And Asaf, I do not even know who that is, so such a charge obviously bounces right off
That's really the problem, is exaggerated predictions about this season. I tried to talk people down in the preseason, when all the excitement over having a bonafide star-caliber player in Tyreke, and drafting a potential anchor with Cousins was at its highest. And somewhere in there, we traded for one of the best shotblockers in the NBA, and now all of a sudden "we're a 40+ win team, and we're going to make a push for the playoffs."
Slow down, Jasper.
We are chronically young. We have four or five tweeners among our 9 best players. Our coach spent the first two months of the season inexplicably exacerbating those two issues with inconsistent rotations. We've had injuries. We've had immaturity. And so on. All these things have dragged us down all year.
Still, I expected a 30 win effort, based on how much better our roster is (on paper). So when, for instance, ESPN sets the preseason over/under on Kings wins at 27.5, and Simmons takes the under (predicted 22 wins), I was tempted to call him out. I fully expected at least ten more wins than that.
Now, we're sitting at 13-40, and Simmons looks like he knows what he's talking about. We could go .500 the rest of the season, and still finish with 28 wins. And that would be a significant improvement for our team.
And fans would still whine about how "we're 28-54, and that's all that matters." Because they expected us to be in the playoffs this season, however unrealistic that was even back in October.
So here we are, going into the All-Star break, in last place in the division. No shot at the postseason (the 8th seed is on pace for 44 wins; if we went undefeated for the rest of the season, we'd have 42 wins). And that, for some reason, means that we suck, the roster needs to be drastically changed, we are headed nowhere, etc. We don't suck; our collective expectations sucked. They needed to be tempered from the beginning. And now that those unrealistic expectations are not going to be met, there's somehow something significantly wrong with our team? I reject that.
If people would just sit back and compare where we are now with where we were headed three years ago, they would understand that we're ahead of the game. We have two young potential stars, and several nice auxiliary pieces. We have a shotblocker (Kings fans don't really know what one of those looks like). We have tons of cap space. This is the best place the team has been in since 2004. You've been a fan through all the BS, and now you're getting fed up? It makes no sense.
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LPKingsFan
All-Star
Nice post, Superman. I'll admit to having moderately high hopes for this year. I thought 30 wins were certain, and perhaps even a Memphis-esque turnaround (who went from 24-58 in 2009 to 40-42 in 2010). Unfortunately, reality is that Memphis' turnaround was fueled by veterans like Zach Randolph and Rudy Gay, and such hopes were unfounded with our still considerably young team.
Luckily, the hopes of following the Thunder road are still very possible. In Durant's second year and Westbrook's first (see the parallells?) they went 23-59. Of course last season that changed to 50-32. Obviously, a long way to go before we're talking 50 wins here, but it shows that winning 23 games (which, as it happens, is where Hollinger's computer has us pegged) while your stars are in their first and second seasons is not the end of the world
Luckily, the hopes of following the Thunder road are still very possible. In Durant's second year and Westbrook's first (see the parallells?) they went 23-59. Of course last season that changed to 50-32. Obviously, a long way to go before we're talking 50 wins here, but it shows that winning 23 games (which, as it happens, is where Hollinger's computer has us pegged) while your stars are in their first and second seasons is not the end of the world
Kingster
Hall of Famer
In answer to your question, no he won't be able to do the special things Tyreke can do. He'll just do other special things - like pass the ball when needed. Read the freaking post. It's not black or white with Tyreke. You don't have to sell me on his positives. I was on to them waaaay before you were.
rhythmless
Starter
Not sure if you're directing this back to me or just my post, but I would say I am realistic. Before the season, I wholeheartedly agreed that we bumped our talent level, but not our production level. I predicted 25-30 iirc. Definitely not over 30. Wins in the NBA are like poker; you don't play your hand, you play the opponents' hand. We are better, but guess what? So is everyone else. Our plan/bet is to improve faster than everyone else right now. That is our only hope. Right now, our production level is correct. We aren't that good. That's it. Will we be good? We can be, but right now this is what we are, which I don't think most people get.
Is there hope? Yes. Do we have pieces? Yes. Are we on the right track? Yes. But everytime we get a new body, invariably someone decides to throw 20/10 or 15/8asts or what have you on them, and it's not fair. 20/10 is DAMN HARD. People on here speak like all stars grow on trees and player progression is a given linear curve. And when it doesn't work out that way all I see are excuses instead of accountability. I'm just tired of reading that X is a potential star, and Y player on another team is nothing compared to X (when you know damn well that if we had Y on our team the opposite would be happening).
Watch The Big Bang Theory. I think you will be able to relate.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
This whole argument is a non-starter for me. Reke is a good passer. He's not a great passer. He will never be a Chris Paul or Rondo. But as we've been over 1000 times on this board, how often do those pure point guards lead their teams to championships. I will say that Reke is a better passer at 21 than Kobe or Wade was at 21. He distributes and tries to get his teammates involved.
Does he have room to grow? Yes. He needs to get better at running the pick and role. And he needs to avoid those tunnel vision moments he gets. Especially when the shot clock is winding down or we get to the last 2 minutes of a close game, he goes into Hero mode and thinks he needs to score instead of trusting his teammates more. It's a difficult balance. We've seen plenty of bright young stars like Dirk and KG be accused of the opposite - being too deferential in crunch time.
Reke is young. He's not selfish. He has passing skills. He has time to learn. What's unrealistic is expecting he is going to learn overnight in his second season. It's going to take time and these late game failures along with more success from his teammates will help. But the kid is averaging 6.5 and 5.5 assists the last 2 months on the worst shooting team in the league. He's not a Kevin Martin or Nick Young type of player.
I agree with almost everything you wrote, but the question I am most concerned about regarding Tyreke's development is whether or not he is interested in correcting these things. You don't have to be a seasoned vet to know that passing the ball on the break to someone who is in front of you and open results in a higher conversion rate. It also shouldn't take two full seasons to learn not to dribble down the clock every time down the court until you get your team into shot clock trouble. You also don't need that much time to learn to trust your teammates in the fourth quarter, or to know that you have to have variation in the pace and offensive plays.
These are all things that he just hasn't improved one bit since he came into the league, and that should be a warning sign to anyone who cares about the future success of this team, since a lot of it is going to fall on Tyreke's shoulders. It seems as if Tyreke doesn't really want to change those things in his game, and PW is content with letting him do his thing.
Personally, I would be a lot more optimistic if Tyreke tried changing some of these aspects in his game, even if he failed at first. I would rather get blown out but see him work on developing himself to becoming a true star and leader, then watch these close losses and see him doing the same things over and over again. Push the ball every once in a while, start the play earlier in the shot clock, even if it results in turnovers and the other team outrunning us and blowing us out. Make that pass in the fourth, even if it's to the wrong man and we end up losing. That's the only way to learn and improve. You don't learn by making the same mistakes over and over again. That just how you develop bad habits that become nearly impossible to shake.
Oh, here go hell come.
Leaders want the ball in their hands. They need the ability to carry the team when the team is flailing. That's what we're seeing, and that's where he has had moments of brilliance and frustration. Making an extra pass to a wide open Luther Head isn't going to make him a better player. Surrounding him with better players will make it easier to share the ball.
When I coach in a tight game, I want the ball in my best player's hand. He's our best player right now, but DMC is steadily moving up. Having someone like Granger on the outside will make Evans more eager to share the ball in crunch time. If you can honestly name someone on the Kings roster who you would rather be handling the ball in the game, please let me know.
If he were to make the "right" pass to the wrong man, or get into a run n' gun because you think it's flashy, he would be crucified here and be accused of not having that "killer instinct." The slow pace makes us dangerous. It's not as sexy as run n' gun, but hey, the Spurs don't give a dead rat's patoot about what looks sexy because they're too busy being blinded by the glare of the rings.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
You're really looking at extremes. Tyreke doesn't dribble the clock down every time down the court. I've watched most of the games this year and am very confident saying he will attack early and he will pass and move the ball. Now there are times when the offense breaks down or we get into the final two minutes and start running the dreaded 1 flat 4 where he will just dribble down the clock and force it inside. That bothers me. I am very confident he will learn though. He seems to have a good attitude and the right people around him. There's no reason to believe that a 21 year old in his second NBA season won't learn. The truth is that this criticism is probably still news to him.
It's the nature of the league. Rookie years people are tantalized by potential and players are rarely criticized. Year 2 people start picking apart their games and finding faults with them. Year 3 is where they typically respond and take their game to the next level. Happened with Durant and his defense and rebounding. Happened with Rose and his outside shot. Happened with Westbrook and his passing and outside shot. I believe Evans will take a huge step next season.
But I think you do a diservice trying to label him as uninterested in changing. It's not always black or white. He is trying to carry a team, be a clutch leader and learn to diversify the game that has worked at for him at all levels since he was a kid. The late game heroics he got praised for last season. All while battling through the biggest injury he's had. There's no need to pretend his game is perfect, he has a lot to learn. But let's not "throw the baby out with the bathwater." Reke is a rare type of player that we are very, very lucky to have.
If Tyreke is double teamed and Luther Head is wide open, then hell yea, the ball needs to go to Luther (although I would rather see Head wide open on the bench...).
And who said anything about being flashy? You don't have to be a gunner like Phoenix or GS, but you NEED variation in your offense. Even the best half court teams run when the opportunity arises to catch the other team off guard. The slow pace doesn't make us dangerous (as our record indicates), it makes us predictable (again, as our record indicates). Everything you said screams predictability - always have the same guy make the final play, always play the same pace. You might as well invite the opposing team's coach to your practice to watch you work on the gameplan. He probably wouldn't bother, though, because he already knows. They all know. There's not one person on this board who doesn't know EXACTLY what the Kings will try to do the next time we are down 2 in the final seconds of the game. Everybody else in the NBA knows, too. I wonder who will come out on top...
And all that talk about one guy domintaing games is pure BS. Superstars (which Tyreke is not yet one) can win games on their own against bad teams in the regular season. Even Kobe doesn't try to win alone in the playoffs against good teams. LeBron is in the process of learning that lesson too. Boston made him their ***** in the last playoff and in the 3 games this season. Developing the mindset of superstar + four scrubs is detrimental to the team's future, especially when said superstar is years away from actually becoming one.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
Wait, so LeBron is in the process of learning at 25. But at 21 Reke has somehow shown that he's not going to or not interest in learning. What?!?!?!?!?!
What about those who don't respond? Is it a given that every third year player will take his game to the next level? How many Durants and Derrick Roses are there in the league?
I was being sarcastic towards LeBron...
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Well, if you look at the history of player development across all sports, yes, a large pecentage of players do improve from year 2 to year 3. If you look at the history of 21 yr old across all sports, yes, they are almost always better at age 23 and 24. Is it a given? Nothing is given. But there is much more evidence to suggest Tyreke will imrpove and make strides the next few years than not.
You're really not making sense. You just seem to be hoping Tyreke doesn't develop, and assuming he won't learn.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
Rainmaker said it well. There is never a guarentee. However, there are also very few players who come through the NBA of Reke's caliber. Most of them who actually seem to care about the game the way he does do develop. He's hearing fair criticisms this year. He has teams who have geared their entire defense and gameplanned around him. There's no reason for him not to respond and take his game to the next level. History is on his side if he wants it. And he's given us no reason to believe he doesn't.
Making sense? If I was hoping Tyreke will not develop I should've been content with him making the same mistakes over and over...
The truth is, and rhtyhmless said it best, that no one can learn unless they are being held accountable for their mistakes and flaws. Tyreke isn't being held accountable by Westphal (unless you count that laughable "confrontation" they had about a week ago), and doesn't seem interested in changing his game. Can you really name one thing that Tyreke has significantly improved in his game since he came into the league? The truly great players constantly work on changing and improving their game. Every offseason they work on another aspect. True, Tyreke was injured this offseason, but not to the extent that he couldn't work on anything.
In any case. I want Tyreke to succeed, but I will measure his success not in his individual stats, but in how his play affects the team, because that is the one most important role of a franchise player. And I'll take the approach of "I'll believe it when I see it", because oh too many times players and teams have failed to live up to the hype. Remember we were supposed to make a run at 8th seed this year...
I think he did improve his jumpshot but the foot problem may have caused him to lose his form/ that whole thing with his brothers telling him to shoot like in high school. We've also seen spurts where he's gotten better moving the ball and also off the ball, so I wouldn't say that he hasn't improved on anything. When you think about Tyreke, what can you really think of that he needs to improve on? Not leaving his feet to pass, passing more, his shooting. That's basically it, and everything else more or less comes out of those 3 things.
The rest of his skills that need improvement really can't be improved on his own but require experience playing with a team. I agree with you that Westphal should play more of a teaching role holding Tyreke accountable, and your choice to believe it when you see it is a very reasonable one. But I mean I frankly see no point continuing to whine about the same point. By now everyone who isn't a troll on the board should roughly know each other's opinions, and PW isn't going to read our forum.
So let's just wait till next season before continuing with the criticism.
If he was just another player, I would agree - those are roughly the skills he needs to work on. But Tyreke, as the franchise player, has a responsibility for how the entire group functions as a team, and there are many things that fall into that category that he needs to improve (and I've already said what they are repeatedly so no point in repeating). If he is too young and inexperienced to handle that responsibility then he shouldn't have been given the keys to the team in his second month as a rookie. I think he would've been much better off being just another very good player who is slowly developing into a star, rather then go on that crazy 20-5-5 chase and being pegged as the guy who will win championships for the Kings before he was even allowed to drink.
What would we do between now and then?
What would we do between now and then?
Let Cousins go on a 30-20 chase for the rest of the season
Or refuse to play Cousins till Pooh Jeter dunks in a game.
The school at where I teach is in the process of putting up a new cafeteria. When they first started, I would walk by every day and just see a big hole. No progress, just a big hole. Each day I would look and wonder, "what the hell is going on? Will this thing ever be completed?" Then, I went away for a week as part of a school function. When I returned I saw a foundation in place. Then, when I came back from winter break, the frame was put up.
I couldn't notice the change from staring at things on a daily basis, but when I stepped away for a while and came back I was able to notice all of the changes that had occurred.
I couldn't notice the change from staring at things on a daily basis, but when I stepped away for a while and came back I was able to notice all of the changes that had occurred.
The difference is that whoever was building the new cafeteria had specific and detailed plans on how to go about it. Westphal's plans for Tyreke would be the equivalent of "just throw some bricks into the hole. It will turn into a cafeteria somehow"..
How could you possibly know that?
By watching Kings games?...
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