SAR coming to the Kings discussion (merged)

[BigSong]

I do not think there is anyway under the sun we could pry J. O'neal from the Pacers and I would be less willing to give up give up Peja AND Bibby for Brand.

Thats mostly why i didnt want to mention O'Neal. But Bibby and Peja for Brand and Livingston would be worth the risk. Livingston seems to be solid, and with him and Hart we could use both basically as bal handlers and facilitators. Both of hese guys have size and would provide solid perimeter defense, and hopefully conceal any of our shotblocking weaknesses. This deal is really only predicated on if we get Shariff. We coul use Shariff's and Miller's shooting, and Brand woul be our main man inside.

Plus I think Garcia and Martin would thrive in this team as a help defender\shooter in Garcia and a slasher in Martin.

 

[chelle]

Both of hese guys have size and would provide solid perimeter defense, and hopefully conceal any of our shotblocking weaknesses. This deal is really only predicated on if we get Shariff. We coul use Shariff's and Miller's shooting, and Brand woul be our main man inside.

I would rather get somebody who would END our shot blocking weaknesses as oppossed to concealing them. That is one of my concerns with SAR. He does not do that. Yes, he helps fill a need at the forward spot, BUT I do not think he is exactly what we needed. He does improve the team, but I am hoping that GP has someone else in mind right now as well to better address our needs.

AS for giving up Bibby; even with the HUGE number of PG in the league, if we are going to give up an elite guard, we BETTER get one in return. The young guys you listed have not proven themselves enough for that yet. Of course, I am a Bibby fan, so I may be too biased to argue that point.

 

[Grobar]

the problem with giving up bibby is that you would not get a guard with the same skill level. bibby fits like a glove into our system, and he is one of the biggest warriors in the nba. i'm just afraid giving him up would really screw with our system.

 

[hrdboild]

i dont think this is a fair accusation. the KG talk, etc is all dream, and all in good fun. but there are many of us here who believe acquiring SAR (at the PF) is a lame acquisition in terms of need. its important to reacquire a lot of lost talent, but if the kings organization is serious about shifting its focus, then more needs to happen. obviously, the trade deadline is a long ways off, and lotsa stuff can still go down, so i'm not in any way condemning the SAR acquisition. but i do believe, and i think a lot of people here would agree with me, that SAR, as talented as he may be, cannot be the starting PF if the kings want to further their success beyond the first round of the playoffs. brad miller is no defensive or rebounding machine, but thats not a reason to trade him. so, instead of trading a great piece of the offense, i (and others) say complement him with a more defensive-minded PF.

i, like many, love how the kings run an offense, but that doesnt mean we cant get some guys who play alittle defense, and it dont mean we have to trade away all of our offensive-oriented players. it just means we need to strike a better balance, and all SAR does is shift the balance away from the direction the maloofs and GP claimed they wanted to improve upon. GP has done a great job thus far in revamping the backcourt, but the front court still needs work, and we still own 3 inflated-tweener-contracts that arent doing us much good. i advocate a peja trade because SAR would be a very capable starting SF (especially at his price), and i believe losing peja would hurt the kings the least, despite him being the better defender of our core, and i also believe his trade value is still high enough that we could get a good PF in return. if not a star PF in some sort of peja + w/e package, then maybe a young, yet-to-blossom big man prospect. just an idea. but i think its unfair to categorize those of us who want whats best for the team and who dont approve of SAR as our starting PF, considering how horribly things went at the end of last season with an all-tweener PF rotation.

Firstly, I agree with just about everything you said in that post, especially about SAR shifting the balance further away from defense. I was not that excited when SAR's name came up a long time ago as the first PF that the Kings were interested in. And I certainly don't think he's the perfect piece to put this team over the top or even restore some defensive dignity. On the other hand, looking at what's available and the very real possibility of ending up with Kenny Thomas as our starting PF, I think this is a move we have to jump on because it's going to be gone very fast if we don't.

I like the idea of a defensive specialist at PF better. Someone who isn't going to be taking shots from the other guys but will clean up the boards and do a little "enforcing" in the lane. I'm actually a little scared that there won't be enough shots to go around. The too many scorers, not enough role-players problem again. I would have preferred Reggie Evans, although he's less than perfect himself (undersized, practically no offensive ability). Aside from that, there aren't many possibilities though. Boozer may be a possibility but then he's undersized too. So is Brand. Those guys are quality players no doubt, but they have weaknesses too. And since you'd have to trade a core guy to get them, essentially you'd be patching one hole by opening up another, and possibly downgrading in talent as well.

Maybe Petrie does have another deal in mind, maybe not. Either way I think this is a situation where somebody is going to get a good player at a discount price. I'd prefer it to be us. He's not who I wanted at PF either, but rosters turn over quickly in the NBA. For now it's probably the best move we can make. At 5 million, he could make a good sixth man if we find a defensive specialist to plug in at PF. And I definately agree that 2 of the 3 tweeners have to go, one way or another. This doesn't look to me like the perfect mix of players yet, but it's getting better. A lot better.

 

[Kings113]

WCF?

1.) Spurs

2.) Suns

3.) Nuggets

4.) Houston

5.) Dallas

6.) Sacramento


That's how I think the first six Western seeds will go. They might beat Denver, but WCF? Hmmm.

I'm thinking the Suns will still be pretty good. There's a chance they lose their elite level, though, and if that happens, I guess the Kings have a chance at WCF.

Suns aren't going to be #2 in the west. Houston will get #2 w/ their total roster and balanced attack now. #3 or #4 for Suns, yeah.

Also Song, I think Brand/Jaric would be better.

 

[bye_bye_bjax24]

All this Peja trade talk is pointless speculation (to allow SAR play his "natural" position? uh..no) Geoff Petrie would feed his first born grandchild to alligators before moving him.

I hear critics say Peja does not make teammates better, but his mere presence on the court does just that....Peja spaces the floor on offense....which opens things up for teammates to operate and cut. And how many players in the league can drop 20 points on a mediocre night? Peja is one of a handful.

Without C-Webb in his way and the Cat gone, two ballhogs dismissed, and with injuries behind him (knock on wood), the guy is good for 25 ppg and 7 rebs within the scheme of the offense.

The common line of thinking too is Peja needs to toughen up, rebound better, and develop a post game. I dont see that happening. At least not drastically. Where I think we will see a new Peja is Peja showing off more handles next year, putting the ball on the floor....instead of just catching and shooting, or one dribble then shot.....getting more creative and aggressive with the ball in his hands....a la vintage Larry Bird.

 

[Bricklayer]

....a la vintage Larry Bird.

People really need to quit making that silly comparison.

And as an aside, the arrival of Bonzi and Shareef virtually assures that Peja will NOT average 25ppg unless somebody gets hurt. We have 5 shooters in one lineup. The math says 12-14 shots per player, and there certainly is no need nor any inspiration for a bunch of guys used to scoring a bunch of points to feed another player at their own level at their own expense.

there is an irony here -- but with this new lineup, Peja's offense, i.e. the one thing he does well, is less important than its ever been. PLENTY of guys in that lineup to put up big offensive numbers. What we need him to do is to fill out his jockstrap for once, and that seems highly unlikely barring some kind of miracle sugery.

 

[ONEZERO]

Suns aren't going to be #2 in the west. Houston will get #2 w/ their total roster and balanced attack now. #3 or #4 for Suns, yeah.

Also Song, I think Brand/Jaric would be better.

Ur saying that houston beats out san antonio for the division? I don't think so. And who will be #1 then?... Denver? Sac? Because u say suns will be 3 or 4...

I just think u forgot that there's 3 divisions in each conference and u also forgot that houston and san antonio r in the same division.

 

[HndsmCelt]

People really need to quit making that silly comparison.

And as an aside, the arrival of Bonzi and Shareef virtually assures that Peja will NOT average 25ppg unless somebody gets hurt. We have 5 shooters in one lineup. The math says 12-14 shots per player, and there certainly is no need nor any inspiration for a bunch of guys used to scoring a bunch of points to feed another player at their own level at their own expense.

there is an irony here -- but with this new lineup, Peja's offense, i.e. the one thing he does well, is less important than its ever been. PLENTY of guys in that lineup to put up big offensive numbers. What we need him to do is to fill out his jockstrap for once, and that seems highly unlikely barring some kind of miracle sugery.

I'll call unfair on this one. While Pedja will probably never make the all defense team he CAN nt often during th paly offs DOES play dam good D. Now will he make it a HABIT? well that is a fair question. I would love to see him concentrate on his defense game to help this squad move to the next level but I have more than doubts about that.

 

[Kings2805]

This is a quote from DimeMag...That I thought I would share with everybody.
quote:
We've been asked a million times in the last 24 hours about where we think Shareef will now end up. We've heard the love for the Kings from camp Shareef and we've heard that Sacramento loves him right back. Shareef's fantasy value would explode in that system. ...

I would honestly second that statement, because it is so true. Shareef would dominate in the Kings system, and could easily reach 20+ points, and 9 plus rbs/gm. He would also provide a taller, more athletic defensive front over KT. Shareef has been to 1 AllStar game, well guess what? Chris Webber only went to one AllStar game himself, before the Sacramento Kings and the Princeton offense maximized his many talents. I am not in no way saying SAR is as good as Webber, dont get me wrong, but we could have a similar situation ala Webber in 98'. Once you see Shareef do a spin move around a defender, and see him slam it down hard as the ARCO crowd roars to the display of power, will you come to realize this is a steal in the making. If we get him for the MLE of $5 mil, that would be almost around a 60% discount from what he made last year.

Not only that, but there is no reason why the Kings need to change the way they play, and totally concentrate on D. Ever since the Kings lost to seattle everybody has been stressing D. I agree we need D, but not as much as you guys think. Those Kings that we saw in the Playoffs, weren't Sac Kings, that was a team lacking chemistry, injury(Bjax and Miller) and they looked in total disarray. The aftermath of 2 midseason trades in the middle of a road trip, prevented this team from every getting the help D, spacing, and experience in playing with each other. A full training camp together will do this team great rewards, and we will be better defensively than most of you might think. Never underestimate chemistry, and it's hard to develope that in the middle of the season on a long road trip, and then Miller goes out with the leg injury. This team never had a chance, Mobley went out of the context of the offense frequently, Miller was a defensive liability because of the injury, and the Kings never have looked this pathetic. Watch with SAR on board we are definately a Top 4 team in the West, especially if we get Evans and Songaila back, or atleast one.

 

[ParniValjak]

Where I disagree with you is that you characterize the people who look at Peja and what he brings to the table and reason that he represents more value than anyone we could get in a trade with him, as "Peja fanatics". It's not a matter of blind devotion. I just don't think we can trade Peja for anyone that will make this team better. KG for Peja and Thomas is not going to happen. How often can you trade a veteran shooter for a dominant big man? That's why the Richmond for Webber trade is going to stand as one of the greatest coups of all time. That just doesn't happen. The only reason it happened then is that Richmond was at the absolute peak of his value and Webber was at the absolute bottom point of his value. My unwillingness to trade Peja is not a reflection of what a brilliant superstar player I think he is, because I don't think that. It's because his value in a trade is significantly less than his value as a member of this team. Certainly not everyone agrees, but it's unfair to dismiss that argument simply as "fanatacism".

So considering that Peja's value is maximized at this current point in time by not trading him (that's an assumption I'm working with based on my POV), it doesn't matter whether SAR would be more dominant as a SF than a PF. The point is, we have a hole to fill at PF. Going into the season with Kenny Thomas as our starting PF represents a considerable step down in ambition from the past 5 seasons (give or take). SAR can definately play PF, and he's a great fit for this team offensively because he plays the low post role we've been missing. That he can play SF too is a bonus, if we do decide to move Peja at some other time (when changes in the market have hopefully increased his value). Going after and signing SAR would represent to me a management commited to moving forward and taking advantage of the circumstances to add the best available talent at a reasonable price.

I believe Petrie when he said that nobody is safe. There isn't one player on this current Kings team that could be considered untouchable. And that extends to Peja. However, there's no reason to trade players if their value is going to decrease in the process. That's the path to lottery territory. His commitment to sticking with Peja I think has everything to do with maximizing value and nothing to do with 'infatuation' or whatever you want to call it. He's not building a fantasy team, he's dealing with real people and real contracts and real risks. I can forgive him for being a little more conservative in his personel moves than fans with nothing to lose.

That is a quality post

 

[Kings113]

Ur saying that houston beats out san antonio for the division? I don't think so. And who will be #1 then?... Denver? Sac? Because u say suns will be 3 or 4...

I just think u forgot that there's 3 divisions in each conference and u also forgot that houston and san antonio r in the same division.

No, I didn't forget anything.

#1 spot isn't even mentioned, so obviously I think it'd be the Spurs. As I've said in my top ten post, and would be my prediction through-out next season anyways.

 

[chelle]

I was just thinking . . . Do ya'll realize how good we would be if we kept Bibby, Peja, and Miller then filled the other two starter spots with players that could rebound and block a few shots? If one of those players could be a scoring threat as well, we would have an AMAZING team. The question now becomes can SAR and/or Wells play play enough defense to rebound and block shots in this system. I know they can score, but we will have to wait and see about the other.

If Miller and Bibby are better on D for real this year and Peja does not have a repeat of last season, we will be VERY good.

So many if's. TDOS is TOO LONG!!! I HATE wondering. . . I would rather know for sure if we were good again or if we were not going to be any good. I would cheer the same and love them as much, but I would not stress as much!!!

 

[ParniValjak]

I was just thinking . . . Do ya'll realize how good we would be if we kept Bibby, Peja, and Miller then filled the other two starter spots with players that could rebound and block a few shots? If one of those players could be a scoring threat as well, we would have an AMAZING team. The question now becomes can SAR and/or Wells play play enough defense to rebound and block shots in this system. I know they can score, but we will have to wait and see about the other.

If Miller and Bibby are better on D for real this year and Peja does not have a repeat of last season, we will be VERY good.

So many if's. TDOS is TOO LONG!!! I HATE wondering. . . I would rather know for sure if we were good again or if we were not going to be any good. I would cheer the same and love them as much, but I would not stress as much!!!

SAR is not going to be a rebounding monster. He will have nights where he pulls down double digit rebounds but he will also have nights where he pulls down 5 rebounds. He is just not a shot-blocker. Never has been and never will be. Not a great defender either

Bonzi is much better defender, he can rebound well for a player of his size and position but again not much of a shot blocker. I still think we need to add a big gut to the bench that is a very good shotblocker and solid rebounder and defender inside. A Scott Pollard type of player of few years back. The question is who is that player. Skinner could be that player BUT I would prefer someone who is at least 6'11.

 

[slugking50]

I caught the last 40 minutes of Koz’s show yesterday, and they were talking about the Monarchs (They’re going to ease Demaya back into the lineup). No mention of Shareef.

That was MonarchsTalk.







I heard the show. Koz said he had several different sources each said various opinions on it. From it will happen tomorrow to it will happen next week.

 

[punisher]

Re:

Hoopshype.com puts Kings 04-05 payroll at $56.9 million (that without Sampson's contract). Just out of curiosity...if we use all of our MLE money on SAR, that would put us over the luxury cap which is set at $61.7 million...which means we'd lose a slice of that tax collected money the league redistributes back to the clubs that stayed under the luxury cap...

 

[gman23]

Bottom line with all the roster changes, you never know until they play togther starting in practice then pre-season.. I'm excited about the upcoming year because as a team and organization, the Kings have something to prove to themselves, and that's is we will be back(hopefully soon).

 

[Ryle]

Hoopshype.com puts Kings 04-05 payroll at $56.9 million (that without Sampson's contract). Just out of curiosity...if we use all of our MLE money on SAR, that would put us over the luxury cap which is set at $61.7 million...which means we'd lose a slice of that tax collected money the league redistributes back to the clubs that stayed under the luxury cap...

But there really is no gaurantee that there will be a luxury tax next year anyways. Luxury tax hit will be minimal and they will still get some money from the escrow accounts as well.

 

[Diabeticwonder]

Hoopshype.com puts Kings 04-05 payroll at $56.9 million (that without Sampson's contract). Just out of curiosity...if we use all of our MLE money on SAR, that would put us over the luxury cap which is set at $61.7 million...which means we'd lose a slice of that tax collected money the league redistributes back to the clubs that stayed under the luxury cap...

That's also assuming that the the likes of KT, Corliss and Skinner are still around at the start of next year.

 

[punisher]

But there really is no gaurantee that there will be a luxury tax next year anyways. Luxury tax hit will be minimal and they will still get some money from the escrow accounts as well.

If Sampson signed min.contract, if our roster stays intact by the end of the season and if tax kicks in, Kings will pay less then 500 000 tax $$...but will also lose a chunck of that $112 milion (roughly figured) that is set to be redistributed back...

 

[Ryle]

If Sampson signed min.contract, if our roster stays intact by the end of the season and if tax kicks in, Kings will pay less then 500 000 tax $$...but will also lose a chunck of that $112 milion (roughly figured) that is set to be redistributed back...

I recall reading that under the new CBA teams will get a share of the tax money even if they paid the tax.. Maybe someone could do a little research???

 

[punisher]

Re:

I recall reading that under the new CBA teams will get a share of the tax money even if they paid the tax.. Maybe someone could do a little research???

Larry Coon summed it up at

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#16

The figures are out of the expired CBA but the principle I believe is the same with the new one....

 

[whozit]

My understanding is that the luxury tax has changed. It is no longer a question of being applied, but a fact it will be. Also, all teams will now get a slice of the pie not just the teams below the limit.

I could be wrong ..................

 

[hrdboild]

I still think we need to add a big gut to the bench that is a very good shotblocker and solid rebounder and defender inside. A Scott Pollard type of player of few years back. The question is who is that player. Skinner could be that player BUT I would prefer someone who is at least 6'11.

Now I have to admit I haven't seen him play, but the stats would suggest that Jamal Sampson could be that player. Solid rebounder, check. Shotblocker, check. 6'11", check. Defender? Won't know that until we see him play. If he can stay healthy enough to get regular minutes and duplicates his output from the last two seasons (though that was in only a few games) than I'd say he could fill the Scott Pollard role. Brian Skinner is going to be getting more minutes though, it's just a question of whether Rick trusts Jamal enough to play Skinner at PF and bring him in to backup Brad.

(As an aside, I find it rather funny that you wrote about adding a "big gut" to the bench. I know it's probably a typo, but you could be referring to OTag. )

 

[Bricklayer]

Now I have to admit I haven't seen him play, but the stats would suggest that Jamal Sampson could be that player. Solid rebounder, check. Shotblocker, check. 6'11", check. Defender? Won't know that until we see him play. If he can stay healthy enough to get regular minutes and duplicates his output from the last two seasons (though that was in only a few games) than I'd say he could fill the Scott Pollard role. Brian Skinner is going to be getting more minutes though, it's just a question of whether Rick trusts Jamal enough to play Skinner at PF and bring him in to backup Brad.

(As an aside, I find it rather funny that you wrote about adding a "big gut" to the bench. I know it's probably a typo, but you could be referring to OTag. )

A guy who has played in 38 career games over 3 seasons just cannot be the guy you are depending on in that role. He could well be in the NBDL next season. He's the right style of player (kind of), but he was waived by an EXPANSION team last year. With the defense, or lack thereof, amongst our starters, we desperately need an impact defensive guy off that bench, and a guy with enough stature to actually grab the lion's share of frontcourt minutes from our gaggles of middling well established pros.

 

[DocHolliday]

Putting Skinner at the PF position is not a good idea in my opinion. He has no jump shot. If he had a jump shot, he'd be a PERFECT PF with his size and strength.

 

[Jerryaki]

Putting Skinner at the PF position is not a good idea in my opinion. He has no jump shot. If he had a jump shot, he'd be a PERFECT PF with his size and strength.

here's to hoping he's working on that?

 

[Kings113]

He had a mid-range one he made occasionally while w/ us, but missed it a bunch too, he should be working on it. Same with FTs, two of those were his bigger problems. I think he had a decent hook shot too.

Anyways, he should be working on his game in general.

 

[Bricklayer]

Putting Skinner at the PF position is not a good idea in my opinion. He has no jump shot. If he had a jump shot, he'd be a PERFECT PF with his size and strength.

EEEEK!....no offense, but PFs are not defined by their jumpshots!!! Particularly on a team with a jumpshooting center who pretty much CANNOT post, what you need is a big guy who can play on the blocks rather than another damn jumpshooter.

Skinner is 6'9" 250lbs of muscle. That's good size for a PF, a midget for a center. You can get away with playing him at C against some scrubs, but you are, and this gets so damn tiring after awhile, intentionally playing small ball again.

Play the guy at his natural position where he has stregnth and can rebound and defend. Odd traits for a King, I know. But amazingly seem to be valuable PF traits to the rest of the league. It will work out just fine. I promise.

 

[DocHolliday]

Those are valuable PF traits, but I'm sorry a PF has to have a mid range jumper. Even great powerful, tough PF's like Karl Malone had a SWEET mid range jumper.