SAR coming to the Kings discussion (merged)

[VF21]

If you think SAR was passed over by the New Jersey Nets because he didn't pass a physical, you've been the victim of some bad journalism. From what I understand, New Jersey was concerned about a pre-existing condition in his knee stemming from surgery that happened in high school. Since that time he has never had a problem with it. Of course, the older he gets the greater the chance of that eventually becoming a problem. That's a risk - which apparently was too much for the New Jersey front office (after the Alonzo Mourning drama, I can understand why they would be nervous). But them saying that he failed his physical was misleading. Which is why SAR was so upset about it.

So the Nets pass on him and yet the Kings should grab him and hope for the best? Hey, sure. It's not like anyone ever gets injured playing for the Kings - or tripping over a box in their own apartment in the dark - etc.

The chance of arthritis developing is REAL. It's something a team about to put pen to paper on a multi-million dollar deal HAS to consider. With the Kings' proclivity for injuries anyway - and the recent experience with Chris Webber - acquiring SAR has "future train wreck" written all over it.

And the saddest thing is that if those of us who are leery of the whole thing end up being right it will be a pyrrhic victory.

 

[thesanityannex]

Yeah but that's only because of the technicality that Rip is shooting 18 and 20 footers, not three pointers. Chauncey's outside shot is something like the fifth option on that team. He doesn't use it very much. It should also be noted that they often have trouble scoring more than 80 points per game. Probably not the best offense to emulate.

A little off on the Chauncey Billup assesment. Billups shot more threes than anyone on the team. During the playoffs he went 11-47 from the three point line, shooting way more than anyone on his team. I don't think a fifth option shoots 47 threes, even though his percentage made looks like it.

 

[thesanityannex]

The chance of arthritis developing is REAL. It's something a team about to put pen to paper on a multi-million dollar deal HAS to consider. With the Kings' proclivity for injuries anyway - and the recent experience with Chris Webber - acquiring SAR has "future train wreck" written all over it.

But we are getting him at half the price the Nets were. And I will repeat, coming pre-injured to the Kings can only be good fortune.

 

[loopymitch]

But we are getting him at half the price the Nets were. And I will repeat, coming pre-injured to the Kings can only be good fortune.

How do you figure that one?
Would you rather buy a beat up Yugo because it's cheap and could break down before you get it home or wait and get a Mercedes. OK probably bad analogy but you get the point.

 

[kingkung]

2:00 Pm

Do we have Shareef yet?

 

[VF21]

But we are getting him at half the price the Nets were. And I will repeat, coming pre-injured to the Kings can only be good fortune.

I understand that. But if in a year or so the arthritis does flare up badly, then what? It's still a big chunk of money we're paying out for a thoroughbred that can't run...

Hey, he's lame but he was cheap? Sorry...

I realize I'm spitting in the wind on this one, and I truly hope I'm wrong because this is my KINGS I'm talking about. To me, this only makes sense if there's something else in the works.

Bottom line is we'll argue and debate and discuss until the deal is either done or not done. I may not like the idea of acquiring SAR but it IS the name on the front and not the name on the back that matters. (Yes, there are a couple of exceptions to that rule but SAR isn't one of them.)

The other thing that irritates me is the zeal with which this deal is being touted BEFORE the fact. Kozimor calling it the biggest deal since Webber? It sounds way too much like someone is trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear to me.

 

[hrdboild]

A little off on the Chauncey Billup assesment. Billups shot more threes than anyone on the team. During the playoffs he went 11-47 from the three point line, shooting way more than anyone on his team. I don't think a fifth option shoots 47 threes, even though his percentage made looks like it.

Yeah, I don't argue he shot more threes than anyone else, but the three point shot does not play a large role in their offense. Did you say those 47 threes were for the whole playoffs? So that's 47 threes over 25 games? That hardly constitutes a primary option. And anyway, they're a weak offensive team. One of the weakest. Perhaps this lack of a three point threat that isn't their pointguard has something to do with that?

And yeah, the knee is as much a concern for us as it is for anyone else. I'm not superstitous enough to think it's more of a problem for us. New Jersey thought the risk was too great for what they were giving up. The lower the price gets, the lower the risk is. At some point it becomes an acceptable level of risk. Especially if he's not going to be counted on as a primary option.

 

[thesanityannex]

I understand that. But if in a year or so the arthritis does flare up badly, then what?
.

Like I said, coming pre-injured is good fortune.

It's still a big chunk of money we're paying out for a thoroughbred that can't run...
.

Since when can he not run? Are we talking about the guy who hasn't missed a game from his knee yet? As King's fans were used to guys sitting with "sore" knees, so why not take a guy who in his whole career hasn't been bothered by it, for a steal at the MLE.

 

[Wuster]

I realize I'm spitting in the wind on this one, and I truly hope I'm wrong because this is my KINGS I'm talking about. To me, this only makes sense if there's something else in the works.

VF21 - I'd suggest that there is *always* something else in the works. Good GM's are always looking at ways to make moves and improve the team. They are chess players and the players are their pieces. My own feeling is that SAR will not be dealt if/when he's actually acquired, however.

 

[thesanityannex]

Yeah, I don't argue he shot more threes than anyone else, but the three point shot does not play a large role in their offense. Did you say those 47 threes were for the whole playoffs? .

I said playoffs, should have typed Finals. Brain Fart. 11-47 in 7 games at the Finals, hardly an insignificant amount.

 

[hrdboild]

Okay, but 47 shots in 7 games is still not a huge part of the offense. Like I said, it's something like a fifth scoring option. And his bad percentage would suggest that maybe he should have shot less. But if Detroit is your only example of a succesful offense with a point guard as the only three point threat, and they were 24th out of 30 teams last year for PPG, than I would suggest that you don't have much of a case. I'm talking about offense only, not defense. And Detroit is not a stellar example of offensive efficiency.

 

[thesanityannex]

I never said they were effecient on offense or tried to argue they were. You were saying Chauncey Billups doesn't shoot threes, I said he did. That's all.

 

[hrdboild]

I understand that. But if in a year or so the arthritis does flare up badly, then what? It's still a big chunk of money we're paying out for a thoroughbred that can't run...

Hey, he's lame but he was cheap? Sorry...

I realize I'm spitting in the wind on this one, and I truly hope I'm wrong because this is my KINGS I'm talking about. To me, this only makes sense if there's something else in the works.

Bottom line is we'll argue and debate and discuss until the deal is either done or not done. I may not like the idea of acquiring SAR but it IS the name on the front and not the name on the back that matters. (Yes, there are a couple of exceptions to that rule but SAR isn't one of them.)

The other thing that irritates me is the zeal with which this deal is being touted BEFORE the fact. Kozimor calling it the biggest deal since Webber? It sounds way too much like someone is trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear to me.

You have to take some risks VF, or you're always going to be middle of the road. There's no consensus however on how to properly evaluate risk or what level of risk is acceptable, and that's where a GM earns his money (or earns his swift departure). Sometimes you can make all the right moves and still fall victim to a run of bad luck. It happens and otherwise competant GMs lose their jobs because of it. Signing a potential injury risk to a huge deal is a bad move. But signing a potential injury risk to a small deal which minimizes the effects of a "worst case scenario" could be a good risk with a potentially big payoff. Bringing in Wells is a risk too, for different reasons, but also an acceptable one given his expiring contract.

The whole "biggest deal since Webber" comment is something I've pretty much just ignored. I assumed the news would involve SAR from the beginning anyway, so I guess I wasn't disappointed when it didn't turn out to be something more. It seems to me that a lot of sports journalists are basically sensationalists. He can get away with comments like that because most casual fans don't have much of an idea who SAR is so if he tells them he's a superstar, they believe him. Unfortunate, yes. But that doesn't have anything to do with the Kings front office. Maybe they'll try to sell people on SAR as the second coming too, but I highly doubt they actually believe it.

 

[VF21]

You have to take some risks VF, or you're always going to be middle of the road. There's no consensus however on how to properly evaluate risk or what level of risk is acceptable, and that's where a GM earns his money (or earns his swift departure). Sometimes you can make all the right moves and still fall victim to a run of bad luck. It happens and otherwise competant GMs lose their jobs because of it. Signing a potential injury risk to a huge deal is a bad move. But signing a potential injury risk to a small deal which minimizes the effects of a "worst case scenario" could be a good risk with a potentially big payoff. Bringing in Wells is a risk too, for different reasons, but also an acceptable one given his expiring contract.

The whole "biggest deal since Webber" comment is something I've pretty much just ignored. I assumed the news would involve SAR from the beginning anyway, so I guess I wasn't disappointed when it didn't turn out to be something more. It seems to me that a lot of sports journalists are basically sensationalists. He can get away with comments like that because most casual fans don't have much of an idea who SAR is so if he tells them he's a superstar, they believe him. Unfortunate, yes. But that doesn't have anything to do with the Kings front office. Maybe they'll try to sell people on SAR as the second coming too, but I highly doubt they actually believe it.

I fully understand the concept of acceptable risk. When you're talking multi-million multi-year deals, I think you have to look very closely. The only point we're apparently not in agreement about is whether or not SAR's potential risk outweighs his potential value. On that, we're simply going to have to agree to disagree...

 

[Gary]

The worse that can heppen is that we have a MLE type player that cant play, or is a bench player in limited minutes.

The best case scenario is that he fits in and plays wonderfully as he did when in Vancouver, and in the back of our minds we are thinking "what a steal!"

Middle of the road scenario is that he plays well enough for a MLE player that he could be packaged with another big named player of ours for an even bigger named player in the future.

SAR is somewhat a big named player in the NBA. He has proven he can put up numbers. He can play 1 of 2 positions. If we signed him with the MLE than he is a named player that is relatively cheap. IF he put up decent number than he is a named player that is putting up numbers that is relatively cheap. Say we wanted to trade for a top tier player and had him signed. It would be pretty attractive to package him with one of our 3 core players if we had him wouldn't it?

 

[loopymitch]

^^ If I'm wrong about him, I'll be the first to admit it and I hope I am but I'm not ready to jump on the bandwagon or start planning the parade yet.
I still think GP has bigger and better plans for us.

 

[G_M]

I fully understand the concept of acceptable risk. When you're talking multi-million multi-year deals, I think you have to look very closely. The only point we're apparently not in agreement about is whether or not SAR's potential risk outweighs his potential value. On that, we're simply going to have to agree to disagree...

Reading between the lines it seems to me that this may have been more of an issue with terms in the contract. SAR has been very durable and never had knee problems. I mean Chris Webber got cleared by doctors and the guy can't move laterally and can barely run down the floor. I'm not a huge SAR fan playing the 4 but this smells like cold feet on Thorn's part.

 

[hrdboild]

I fully understand the concept of acceptable risk. When you're talking multi-million multi-year deals, I think you have to look very closely. The only point we're apparently not in agreement about is whether or not SAR's potential risk outweighs his potential value. On that, we're simply going to have to agree to disagree...

Yeah, that's very much a subjective assesment and I can understand the cause for concern. That's a good kind of disagreement to have, because there is no right or wrong answer. As long as we agree on the context in which a deal can be considered a good one or a bad one, it's alright with me if we disagree about this particular trade. At least we understand each other.

 

[BigWaxer]

It sounds way too much like someone is trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear to me.

I am going to derail this thread because I cannot stand it anymore...

WHAT THE HECK IS A SOWS EAR?

My search leads me to something that looks like an anteater or a plant that looks like a tree. Does that tree have ears?

And in the same thread you referenced a thoroughbred. What is in the water up in them hills?

LOL reminds me of that Dan Rather SNL skit during the elections.

 

[IVote4Replay]

I personally like the idea of adding Shareef. Our goal is to make the best team possible... right now.. and I think this definately makes it better. Besides, I'm sure GP knows a lot more about SARs knees than we do. Plus, wasn't his scar tissue from High school?

Anyways, by adding SAR- that does give us more assets for any possible trades as well for the future. But as far as the knees are concerned, I'm not too worried. I trust GP to make the right decisions- look what he's done so far... I like it!... But I am gonna miss Bobby though..

 

[Jkbiker]

[font=verdana,geneva,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Kings, Abdur-Rahim moving closer to a deal
By Sam Amick -- Bee Staff Writer
Published 3:14 pm PDT Thursday, August 11, 2005


Barring a disaster like the one that made Shareef Abdur-Rahim available to begin with, the All-Star forward is about to become a King.

While his agent, Aaron Goodwin, said there are three teams still in the running, it's clear the Kings remain in front and a deal could be made soon.

"We're moving forward to get a deal done with Sacramento," Goodwin said. "We're looking at hopefully getting something done tomorrow (Friday) or Saturday."

Goodwin, however, would not call his client King Abdur-Rahim just yet, not surprising since the player was headed to New Jersey until a sign-and-trade with Portland collapsed on Tuesday.

"I've been at this 19 years, and a done deal is not a done deal until it's signed," he said.

Adding the nine-year veteran to their roster would instantly up the Kings' position in the Western Conference, with the starting five likely consisting of Mike Bibby, Bonzi Wells, Peja Stojakovic, Abdur-Rahim, and Brad Miller. It would also give them a marquee name at the power forward position, which has been manned by Kenny Thomas and Darius Songaila since the Kings traded Chris Webber to Philadelphia in February.

Abdur-Rahim has averaged 19.8 points and 8.1 rebounds in his career, higher numbers than any current Kings player. But part of his production was the byproduct of playing on woeful teams, a trend Abdur-Rahim is looking to end. Abdur-Rahim has said since becoming a free agent that joining a winner was his top priority. He has never played in the playoffs, not in his five seasons in Vancouver or his time in Atlanta or Portland. The Kings, meanwhile, are seeking their eighth straight playoff berth. Asked if Abdur-Rahim was more attracted to Sacramento for financial or basketball reasons, Goodwin answered quickly.

"It's absolutely for basketball reasons," Goodwin said. "He now walks into a position where he continues to play, and there are no questions about his ability to play. He can play with Mike Bibby, and he gives them a low-post presence."

Abdur-Rahim and Bibby played together for four years in Vancouver.

The terms of the potential contract have yet to be settled. The Kings, who are over the salary cap, could use their $5 million mid-level exception for the signing. They could also convince Portland General Manager John Nash to do a sign-and-trade, though Nash has been against the idea in the past. Abdur-Rahim's deal with New Jersey was nixed when he failed a team physical that revealed scar tissue in his right knee. But Abdur-Rahim and Goodwin have insisted that it is the aftereffects of the arthroscopic surgery he had in high school, and that the scar tissue has never hindered his NBA career. Abdur-Rahim has averaged 74 games in his nine seasons. He did, however, miss 22 games in Portland last season after undergoing surgery in mid-January to address loose particles in his right elbow.

The Bee's Sam Amick can be reached at (916) 326-5582 or samick@sacbee.com.

[/font]

woohoo getting close!

http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/basketball/kings/story/13392930p-14234323c.html

 

[Jkbiker]

OOps sorry about the ad

too much in a hurry to cut n paste


...

What ad?

...

- VF21

 

[Kev.in]

The worse that can heppen is that we have a MLE type player that cant play, or is a bench player in limited minutes.

The best case scenario is that he fits in and plays wonderfully as he did when in Vancouver, and in the back of our minds we are thinking "what a steal!"

Middle of the road scenario is that he plays well enough for a MLE player that he could be packaged with another big named player of ours for an even bigger named player in the future.

SAR is somewhat a big named player in the NBA. He has proven he can put up numbers. He can play 1 of 2 positions. If we signed him with the MLE than he is a named player that is relatively cheap. IF he put up decent number than he is a named player that is putting up numbers that is relatively cheap. Say we wanted to trade for a top tier player and had him signed. It would be pretty attractive to package him with one of our 3 core players if we had him wouldn't it?

Those are some really big "ifs". I think the most likely "if" is that we have him for 4 years and then trade him for another middle-tier type of player who may or may not play the same position.

 

[Warhawk]

I am going to derail this thread because I cannot stand it anymore...

WHAT THE HECK IS A SOWS EAR?

My search leads me to something that looks like an anteater or a plant that looks like a tree. Does that tree have ears?

And in the same thread you referenced a thoroughbred. What is in the water up in them hills?

LOL reminds me of that Dan Rather SNL skit during the elections.

A sow is an adult female pig, for you city folk.

 

[ONEZERO]

Is this one of the longest threads ever for a single topic?

 

[thesanityannex]

Is this one of the longest threads ever for a single topic?

Bonzi is pissed, SAR is gettin more airtime, and he ain't even signed!

 

[6th]

Is this one of the longest threads ever for a single topic?

Actually, no, not by a long shot. However, it is one of the better discussions. We have extremely knowledgeable basketball minds around here and it has been great reading this thread.....all 35+ pages. Thanks to all the contributors.

 

[Bricklayer]

Okay, but 47 shots in 7 games is still not a huge part of the offense. Like I said, it's something like a fifth scoring option. And his bad percentage would suggest that maybe he should have shot less. But if Detroit is your only example of a succesful offense with a point guard as the only three point threat, and they were 24th out of 30 teams last year for PPG, than I would suggest that you don't have much of a case. I'm talking about offense only, not defense. And Detroit is not a stellar example of offensive efficiency.

7 threes a game is more than Peja takes. Its a very BIG part fo the offense.

Nobody has ever won a championship on shooting. Nobody. MANY teams have won champiopnships on tough interior play and defense.

And even if they had, with Bibby on the outside and the best shooting center (of all positions) in the league, we would STILL have as much shooting as any of the top teams except Phoenix. Shooting is not just about 3's.


P.S. And going back a few pages, a random comment about a slightly off topic topic: the "great defensive bench" thing. I liked the Hart pickup, thoght why not on the Sampson pickup. But if you think about it the ONLY position where we have actually significantly upgraded defense so far this offseason has been at starting OG. Hart replaces Bobby. Sampson replaces Tag. And Cisco, if he's evne going to turn out to be a good defender, replaces Evans. Three pieces, bvut replacing three of our best defensive players already. Glad we got them, but that's pretty lateral.

 

[VF21]

ms

I am going to derail this thread because I cannot stand it anymore...

WHAT THE HECK IS A SOWS EAR?

My search leads me to something that looks like an anteater or a plant that looks like a tree. Does that tree have ears?

And in the same thread you referenced a thoroughbred. What is in the water up in them hills?

LOL reminds me of that Dan Rather SNL skit during the elections.

Making a silk purse out of a sow's ear is a colloquial expression.

"You can't make a Silk Purse out of a Sow's Ear."
- Jonathan Swift (1667 - 1745)

It means you can't make something valuable out of something that isn't valuable.

In other words, I think the talking heads are trying to make this sound like a MUCH better deal than it is - possibly because it's the only deal they have.

 

[nbrans]

Nobody has ever won a championship on shooting. Nobody. MANY teams have won champiopnships on tough interior play and defense.

Just to clarify, do you mean outside shooting? Or jumpshooting in general? The Bulls, for example, were mostly jumpshooters, especially in the last three titles, so I'm assuming you mean outside shooting?