Rubio renegotiating buyout may enter in 2009

[beb0p]

look this may be true on a personal level, but at the same time millions of other people including hundreds to thousands of scouts have seen him more than you have I'd presume and most of them seem to have a much higher opinion of him than you do.. so I'm going to have to say that on the whole, that statement is false.

I think that's the problem. Unless I'm mistaken most analysts haven't gone so far as to call him a superstar like you are.

In fact, I'm with most of the millions of people who think Rubio can definitely play in the NBA but who knows how good he'll be.

 

[beb0p]

i like how your main arguing style is to be apathetic. anyway, being 19 and being in the company of those three would be nice. no one knows how he'll translate, but all im saying is there is no one in this draft that definitively will translate better than him.. shoot the best player in this draft will probably be Mullens or Derozan but there is no way that theyre going top 5 (barring a turnaround in the tourney)

Now you've completely lost me.

.

 

[sidney]

He really doesn't look fast at all.

He's so creative though he seems to work around his lack of physical skills. I have a hard time believing the Kings pass on him if he is there at the pick. He'd bring an identity to a team that lacks one. He'd bring more attention to the team locally, nationally, and internationally. He fills the PG position that is extremely weak. He'd be a leader on a team that lacks one.

I don't see the Maloof guys passing up all that even if he's not the BPA.

 

[beb0p]

If you look at it in terms of leadership, I'd say the comparison fits. We need someone who knows how to run a team, like Paul, like Nash. Everything I see leads me to believe that Rubio can eventually fill that role. 8-10 ast per game? That's pretty solid if you ask me. It seems to me as if we're judging him as a finished product, when he's got so much to learn. What would he be like after a year w/ Coachie?

No one is judging him as a finished product. But we can't judge him on things he hasn't done. Maybe he'll learn to shoot like Nash, jump like Paul, or develops strength like Deron. But until he does it, no one can't bank on him doing that.

The question isn't whether we need a PG. Everyone knows we do. The question is do you really want to draft a solid but non-star player when there maybe a franchise player at the top of the draft?

And if the answer is yes, that's fine with me.

 

[KingGiant49erFan]

I think that's the problem. Unless I'm mistaken most analysts haven't gone so far as to call him a superstar like you are.

In fact, I'm with most of the millions of people who think Rubio can definitely play in the NBA but who knows how good he'll be.

will you please quote where I said he would be a superstar? or even a star for that matter? thanks.

 

[beb0p]

He really doesn't look fast at all.

He's so creative though he seems to work around his lack of physical skills. I have a hard time believing the Kings pass on him if he is there at the pick. He'd bring an identity to a team that lacks one. He'd bring more attention to the team locally, nationally, and internationally. He fills the PG position that is extremely weak. He'd be a leader on a team that lacks one.

I don't see the Maloof guys passing up all that even if he's not the BPA.

I do agree with that assessment, particularly about the Maloofs not passing Rubio because he is so darn popular.

But I'm a BPA guy. So drafting someone based on anything other than basketball abilities scares me a little.

 

[Vlade4GM]

For those who want to watch full games of Rubio you can go to http://www.nbcolympics.com/basketball/video/index.html

Under encore, they have the broadcasts of both US vs. Spain.

If you go to the left side menu, they'll have the schedules of all the games, box scores, recaps, and some have rewinds (which show a cut version of the game). A nice little trick to use is go to the "official results" and then select "play by play" at the top and you can see the exact times in the game where Rubio comes in the game.

 

[beb0p]

will you please quote where I said he would be a superstar? or even a star for that matter? thanks.

Then what the hell are we disagreeing over?

.

 

[Vlade4GM]

No one is judging him as a finished product. But we can't judge him on things he hasn't done. Maybe he'll learn to shoot like Nash, jump like Paul, or develops strength like Deron. But until he does it, no one can't bank on him doing that.

The question isn't whether we need a PG. Everyone knows we do. The question is do you really want to draft a solid but non-star player when there maybe a franchise player at the top of the draft?

And if the answer is yes, that's fine with me.

Well, you happen to believe there is a potential franchise player at the top of the draft. I for one do not believe there is and I think Rubio has just as much upside if not moreso than anyone else in this draft and he plays a position that is wide open for us, and he brings media attention to the team. Yes media attention is not a primary factor, but it is a nice little cherry on top.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think the difficult thing wiht Rubio is so much of what we are putting on him is what we WISH was there, and whether it truly is or not is ofttimes hard to discern. The first mixtapes I saw of the guy...I was quite worried. His athleticism (he was young) pretty much sucked, and he should sue whoever was making tapes of groundbound lopes and slow layups because he couldn't elevate, and he looked like he was running in mud when he was trying to get past Euroleague defenders -- could create the angle, but not seperate. But the more recent mixes look considerably better, and while this is hardly endorsement, in some of the recent tapes his athleticism does not look that far off of a weaker physically Beno. Which again, obviously is hardly badass, but if that is the case it might be enough if he's special in other ways. Beno has issues on defense, but he can generally get where he wants to on offense.

And that "special in other ways" is the hard thing -- the great ones have a way of slowing the game down in their head, and sometimes even on the court -- all these push push guys aren't reflecting core PG stuff so much as just a playground mentality. The great ones control the game, and pace is not the primary objective. IF he has a swagger, and IF he can slow the game in his head, then and only then can he be what people are hoping he can be. I am not sure yet. I have not seen enough to decided one way or the other and its such an intangible thing when you are talking about floor generalship. I just know what he is going to have to have to make it without great NBA speed or strength. He is going to have to be cocky to the point of arrogant, see the game at a level others don't, and bleed leadership that others will follow even while he's taking his rookie lumps. Otherwise he's just a guy. Maybe another Sergio Rodriguez or some such, and you end up empty with your high pick.

 

[KingGiant49erFan]

I do agree with that assessment, particularly about the Maloofs not passing Rubio because he is so darn popular.

But I'm a BPA guy. So drafting someone based on anything other than basketball abilities scares me a little.

so you hate on Rubio's upside but pimp harden instead? Harden has at least as many question marks about him as rubio does. Not tall enough, not athletic enough, not a point, etc.

 

[beb0p]

so you hate on Rubio's upside but pimp harden instead? Harden has at least as many question marks about him as rubio does. Not tall enough, not athletic enough, not a point, etc.

Oh com'on now, this thread is about Rubio. I'd love to start a thread about Harden but I think most people see that Rubio and Harden are different players with different strength (though a few overlaps) and weaknesses. And that liking one doesn't automatically means you must like the other to the same level of, er, likiness.

And again, I don't hate Rubio. If the Kings draft him it'd not be the end of the world for me. And if the Kings somehow find a way to land Rubio with anything other than the top pick I'd be estatic.

 

[KingGiant49erFan]

Oh com'on now, this thread is about Rubio. I'd love to start a thread about Harden but I think most people see that Rubio and Harden are different players with different strength (though a few overlaps) and weaknesses. And that liking one doesn't automatically means you must like the other to the same level of, er, likiness.

And again, I don't hate Rubio. If the Kings draft him it'd not be the end of the world for me. And if the Kings somehow find a way to land Rubio with anything other than the top pick I'd be estatic.

Haha alright.. I'm pretty sure we just spent about 10 posts each disagreeing on something that we dont necessarily differ on all too much.. can we still be friends?

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Ive been saying for months, If Rubio is there, we have to draft him.

Now Im having second thoughts. Im leaning towards him being a High risk with a decently high reward... not to sure thats worth it. You can only be so good without speed at the PG spot. Sure, he has servicable speed for the position .. but enogh speed to make someone great? Idk..

When has a concencus number 1 pick not turned out to be at least starter material?

Blake Griffin is going to be a above average pro, its about as much of a lock as there is in this draft, and if you have the number 1 pick, you take him. Thats just the way its going to be this year, and im fine with that. I'll take Rubio with the second pick, but sorry .. he's behind griffin for me.

 

[Showtime]

Why are people so high on this kid? I didn't see a lot that impressed me in his international games.

 

[beb0p]

Haha alright.. I'm pretty sure we just spent about 10 posts each disagreeing on something that we dont necessarily differ on all too much.. can we still be friends?

Word. I consider all Kings fans, friends. Whether they know it or not.

 

[rainmaker]

I would pick Griffin over Rubio if we didn't have JT. Since we already have a great young prospect at PF, Rubio is the best option for us.

 

[nbrans]

People characterize him as high risk/high reward, but that is some seriously, seriously high risk when you're hoping that he'd defy the trend of the last 10 years where the elite players are also elite athletes. And add to that his shaky jump shot... you're basically betting the entire farm on his ability to be a singular, unique passer and floor general.

No doubt he has some unique skills, but he also has a JWill-esque talent for making easy passes look difficult. His flashy plays are entertaining, but they also often wouldn't have to have been flashy to work.

 

[KingGiant49erFan]

People characterize him as high risk/high reward, but that is some seriously, seriously high risk when you're hoping that he'd defy the trend of the last 10 years where the elite players are also elite athletes. And add to that his shaky jump shot... you're basically betting the entire farm on his ability to be a singular, unique passer and floor general.

No doubt he has some unique skills, but he also has a JWill-esque talent for making easy passes look difficult. His flashy plays are entertaining, but they also often wouldn't have to have been flashy to work.

You make a good argument here. I would offer Steve Nash as a counterexample.. not an elite athlete yet has won 2 mvps in the past 5 years. Also, Ricky is said to have an incredible drive.. usually guys with exceptional skill and motivation are successful.

 

[nbrans]

You make a good argument here. I would offer Steve Nash as a counterexample.. not an elite athlete yet has won 2 mvps in the past 5 years. Also, Ricky is said to have an incredible drive.. usually guys with exceptional skill and motivation are successful.

Nash is not an elite athlete, but he's still pretty quick, and he's an incredible shooter, which opens up his drives. Because Rubio can't shoot, defenders will be able to sag off into passing lanes and it will be harder for him to penetrate.

If Rubio's able to get where he needs to be on the court and is a singular passer, he could perhaps show Nash's ability to control the game and make his teammates better. But I would argue that Nash is quicker, and his deadly jump shot opens up the rest of his game.

 

[Vlade4GM]

People characterize him as high risk/high reward, but that is some seriously, seriously high risk when you're hoping that he'd defy the trend of the last 10 years where the elite players are also elite athletes. And add to that his shaky jump shot... you're basically betting the entire farm on his ability to be a singular, unique passer and floor general.

No doubt he has some unique skills, but he also has a JWill-esque talent for making easy passes look difficult. His flashy plays are entertaining, but they also often wouldn't have to have been flashy to work.

From what I've seen of him, he doesn't really have Jwill's bad habit of making the flashy pass at the expense of risking turnovers. I think he can get a little overzealous at times (he's still a young PG who enjoys showing off) but for the most part he makes smart and difficult passes; and I mean difficult in their context, not in their delivery.

 

[KingGiant49erFan]

He's not an elite athlete, but he's still pretty quick, and he's an incredible shooter, which opens up his drives. Because Rubio can't shoot, defenders will be able to sag off into passing lanes and it will be harder for him to penetrate.

If Rubio's able to get where he needs to be on the court and is a singular passer, he could perhaps show Nash's ability to control the game and make his teammates better. But I would argue that Nash is quicker, and his deadly jump shot opens up the rest of his game.

Rondo has no jump shot whatsoever but he seems to be pretty successful.. obviously he has a great team surrounding him but my point is that maybe he isnt as great a shooter as nash or as much of an athlete as paul or will he have a great team around him like Rondo but given his skill and motivation he has a good a chance as anyone to be another exception to the rule.

 

[nbrans]

Rondo has no jump shot whatsoever but he seems to be pretty successful.. obviously he has a great team surrounding him but my point is that maybe he isnt as great a shooter as nash or as much of an athlete as paul or will he have a great team around him like Rondo but given his skill and motivation he has a good a chance as anyone to be another exception to the rule.

I keep going back to current Jason Kidd. Kidd can still tear teams apart with his passing, i.e. the Kings. And if left wide open can hit a passable jump shot. But even Beno's eyes light up when he comes to town because he can't guard anyone. And the Mavericks aren't better than when they had Devin Harris.

 

[Jerryaki]

Nash is not an elite athlete, but he's still pretty quick, and he's an incredible shooter, which opens up his drives. Because Rubio can't shoot, defenders will be able to sag off into passing lanes and it will be harder for him to penetrate.

but isn't shooting a skill that can be worked on and refined with training? i'd think that if rubio's passing, court vision, and creativity are as highly touted as they're made out to be, then grab him now and teach the shooting later.

 

[nbrans]

but isn't shooting a skill that can be worked on and refined with training? i'd think that if rubio's passing, court vision, and creativity are as highly touted as they're made out to be, then grab him now and teach the shooting later.

Normally, yes. But Rubio has such a windup and such horrible form on his shot (he basically stands on his ground and shoots a set shot like he's wearing lead boots) that I don't see how he's really going to be able to improve it. It goes in when he's wide open and has lots of time to shoot, but he's not able to pull up off the dribble or shoot when really contested.

And it's too late, I think, to drastically change his form, so it's more one of those "it is what it is" situations.

 

[KingGiant49erFan]

The best argument against Rubio in my opinion would be to say that we shouldn't take him because the pg talent in the 2010 draft will be superior. I say this because, again, in this draft there simply is not a definitive argument for any player having a higher upside than Rubio.

 

[PurpleHaze]

Rubio has such a windup and such horrible form on his shot

For a second I though you were talking about K-Mart

I agree, the kid needs to work on his shot, but he will probably never be a scoring machine - or close. But, if instead of averaging around 10-15 points he averages 10-15 assists that might be just fine.

 

[nbrans]

The best argument against Rubio in my opinion would be to say that we shouldn't take him because the pg talent in the 2010 draft will be superior. I say this because, again, in this draft there simply is not a definitive argument for any player having a higher upside than Rubio.

I don't want to turn this into a Teague thread, but I'd disagree with you on the upside question.

 

[Gary]

Strengths: Ball handling, vision, passing, IQ on both ends of the floor, leadership intangibles, body control (changing speeds/directions at the drop of the hat), nice touch around the basket, work ethic/craves superstardom, very good anticipation on D, team D, decent set shooter (got potential there with work), good PG height, advanced for his age, and knack for breaking down defenses.

Weaknesses: Poor leaping ability, speed/quickness good not great (comparable to Nash), man D/lateral quickness, pull up jump shot (mechanics are bad, probably wouldn't hurt to start from scratch), scoring ability (not a go-to scorer at this point, may never be), strength (absolutely has add upper body strength if he's going to take full advantage of his size), and FT shooting is high 60's/low70's at this point.

High-level projection: Taller/longer Steve Nash w/ less shooting
Mid-level projection: Jose Calderon
Low-level projection: Luke Ridnour

I would have used Jason Williams as the low lever prediction.. Reason why is that he will show you passes that are Williams'esque.

 

[HighTopKicks]

Ive been saying for months, If Rubio is there, we have to draft him.

Now Im having second thoughts. Im leaning towards him being a High risk with a decently high reward... not to sure thats worth it. You can only be so good without speed at the PG spot. Sure, he has servicable speed for the position .. but enogh speed to make someone great? Idk..

When has a concencus number 1 pick not turned out to be at least starter material?

Blake Griffin is going to be a above average pro, its about as much of a lock as there is in this draft, and if you have the number 1 pick, you take him. Thats just the way its going to be this year, and im fine with that. I'll take Rubio with the second pick, but sorry .. he's behind griffin for me.

I agree. The PG can be filled with Houston's pick or by trade. But, certainly PG's picked in the 20's won't have the upside of Rubio and will have as many negatives. And, if we did have the #1, Griffin might be worth giving up should OK we willing to swap Green for Nocioni or Garcia, and we could still get Rubio.