Rubio renegotiating buyout may enter in 2009

[nbrans]

The Euroleagues are also a far less atheltic and more skilled league. Precisely because it's filled with 18-22 year olds, the advantage in the NCAA goes to raw athletes who are still developing their skills. The best players go to the NBA and some of the not-best-but-still pretty good players go to the Euroleagues.

This means that yeah, in the Euroleague players have to be really skilled and they apparently face challenges that NCAA and NBA players don't have to face. Euroleague teams might even be able to beat NCAA teams -- I have no idea on that question. But given that some of the best players in the Euroleague have come over to the US and fallen flat on their face (Sarunas Jasikavecius stand up), I'm not sure it's the best preparation for the NBA. Athletically it's just not the same game, and the "skilled" but slow guys have had a rocky transition. Yes, there are Euro players who have succeeded, but it sure doesn't seem like playing against "men" has necessarily been the best way to gear up for the NBA.

 

[Oprostaj]

That's a great post nbrans, and I agree with it completely. However, it doesn't hold water on every front. Yes, there have been players that have flamed out in the NBA and gone over to Europe. What have you heard from them? Have they all of a sudden become the greatest players to step on the court? Euroleages take those players because they know that for many of them, this is a last resort for professional basketball, they can be gotten for much cheaper than they want, and yes, that they are good players. The fact that they are better athletes is yes, an attraction for them, but like was said before, what happened to Childress? Or Royal Ivey? A 20 ppg scorer in the NCAA might be a 8 ppg scorer in the Euroleauge. Different system, adjustment period... works both ways. Athleticism is overrated when used to judge basketball players. I don't see Bibby taking off from the free throw line and dunking. He can shoot well, solid ball handler and good vision and poise. While the Euroleauge is a step or two below on the athletic side, it's definitely not an inferior leauge. They play a different style better suited for their players. Nobody here is saying go out and sign every white center. Just the PG that displays handles and poise not many PG over here do, all the while being 10 years younger than a lot of them.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

The Euroleagues are also a far less atheltic and more skilled league. Precisely because it's filled with 18-22 year olds, the advantage in the NCAA goes to raw athletes who are still developing their skills. The best players go to the NBA and some of the not-best-but-still pretty good players go to the Euroleagues.

This means that yeah, in the Euroleague players have to be really skilled and they apparently face challenges that NCAA and NBA players don't have to face. Euroleague teams might even be able to beat NCAA teams -- I have no idea on that question. But given that some of the best players in the Euroleague have come over to the US and fallen flat on their face (Sarunas Jasikavecius stand up), I'm not sure it's the best preparation for the NBA. Athletically it's just not the same game, and the "skilled" but slow guys have had a rocky transition. Yes, there are Euro players who have succeeded, but it sure doesn't seem like playing against "men" has necessarily been the best way to gear up for the NBA.

I could be totally off on this, but i'll give it a shot anyways.
The top Euro league has 16 teams ( I think I read that somewhere ).

About 2% of all college athletes make it to there respective pro leagues, of course, this includes D1234 and all sports. So when you take it in NBA terms its a little different. 64 picks each year .. how many D1 college teams are there? Im sure someone could do that math.

Then theres probly around 5 Euro players selected each year ( on average .. sometimes more sometime less )

NCAA players generally get the top pick spots, but every few years there is a europeon player taked high ( Bargnani, Nowiztki, Galinari )

Most of the top college teams win in blow outs about half the time anyways .. So that competition isnt all that great either..

Im not saying the college game is on par with the top euro leagues .. Its deffinetly a different game, and there both different in the NBA. The NBA being the only game that relies heavily on big men ..

However, I think with some crazy math and ratios that im not good enough in math to figure out.. you see some pretty revealing statistics.

 

[KingGiant49erFan]

The Euroleagues are also a far less atheltic and more skilled league. Precisely because it's filled with 18-22 year olds, the advantage in the NCAA goes to raw athletes who are still developing their skills. The best players go to the NBA and some of the not-best-but-still pretty good players go to the Euroleagues.

This means that yeah, in the Euroleague players have to be really skilled and they apparently face challenges that NCAA and NBA players don't have to face. Euroleague teams might even be able to beat NCAA teams -- I have no idea on that question. But given that some of the best players in the Euroleague have come over to the US and fallen flat on their face (Sarunas Jasikavecius stand up), I'm not sure it's the best preparation for the NBA. Athletically it's just not the same game, and the "skilled" but slow guys have had a rocky transition. Yes, there are Euro players who have succeeded, but it sure doesn't seem like playing against "men" has necessarily been the best way to gear up for the NBA.

Nbrans, I have come to respect your opinion but are you serious here? Replace "Euroleague" with "College Basketball" and you would have about 300x the amount of best players falling on their face (from the 2006 class alone: Adam Morrison, Hilton Armstrong, JJ Redick, Patrick O'Bryant, Quincy Douby please stand up.)

 

[nbrans]

Nbrans, I have come to respect your opinion but are you serious here? Replace "Euroleague" with "College Basketball" and you would have about 300x the amount of best players falling on their face (from the 2006 class alone: Adam Morrison, Hilton Armstrong, JJ Redick, Patrick O'Bryant, Quincy Douby please stand up.)

I know that neither is a guarantee of success, but I still think there's less of a correlation between college success and Euroleague success. Some of the better Euroleague stars have come to the NBA and have fared extremely poorly. There are plenty of Euros who have succeeded, but they are the ones with NBA athleticism, not necessarily the ones who were most successful in Europe or who even got very much playing time.

Basically I am just trying to push back on the notion that Rubio is getting a better education in Europe than college players are here -- he's playing MEN people constantly say. Well, those men aren't particularly athletic. The level of skills is greater in Europe. But Rubio is simply not facing the type of athletic defense that exists in the US. Maybe it's a more physical defense, but he's not facing anything that compares to Lousiville's press or Jrue Holiday's or Daniel Hackett's man defense.

The pressure, the travel, the physicality -- yeah sure. But watch the Rubio videos. There's no defense being played.

 

[KingGiant49erFan]

I know that neither is a guarantee of success, but I still think there's less of a correlation between college success and Euroleague success. Some of the better Euroleague stars have come to the NBA and have fared extremely poorly. There are plenty of Euros who have succeeded, but they are the ones with NBA athleticism, not necessarily the ones who were most successful in Europe or who even got very much playing time.

Basically I am just trying to push back on the notion that Rubio is getting a better education in Europe than college players are here -- he's playing MEN people constantly say. Well, those men aren't particularly athletic. The level of skills is greater in Europe. But Rubio is simply not facing the type of athletic defense that exists in the US. Maybe it's a more physical defense, but he's not facing anything that compares to Lousiville's press or Jrue Holiday's or Daniel Hackett's man defense.

The pressure, the travel, the physicality -- yeah sure. But watch the Rubio videos. There's no defense being played.

I can't say I can think off the top of my head of any Euro player in the NBA aside from Tony Parker with NBA athleticism in the way you speak of it. Dirk, Peja, Divac, Radmonivic, Hedo, Bargnani, Gallinari, Ilgauskus, etc. are all not great athletes

 

[nbrans]

I can't say I can think off the top of my head of any Euro player in the NBA aside from Tony Parker with NBA athleticism in the way you speak of it. Dirk, Peja, Divac, Radmonivic, Hedo, Bargnani, Gallinari, Ilgauskus, etc. are all not great athletes

Well, Dirk, Hedo and Bargnani are all very athletic for their size, and so was Vlade in his younger days. Ilgauskus is just huge.

But I'm thinking more about Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Andre Kirilenko, Rudy Fernandez, Pau Gasol and Jose Calderon, who are all extremely athletic. I mean, Fernandez competed in the dunk contest.

Successful-but-unathletic Euros like Jasekavicius, Navarro, Marko Jaric, Jiri Welsch and others have fared less well.

 

[ElRey]

Well, Dirk, Hedo and Bargnani are all very athletic for their size, and so was Vlade in his younger days. Ilgauskus is just huge.

But I'm thinking more about Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Andre Kirilenko, Rudy Fernandez, Pau Gasol and Jose Calderon, who are all extremely athletic. I mean, Fernandez competed in the dunk contest.

Successful-but-unathletic Euros like Jasekavicius, Navarro, Marko Jaric, Jiri Welsch and others have fared less well.

Agreed, Dirk is darn athletic for his size. I remember when he was still in Germany, and he was KILLING all of our best high school McDonald allstars during the ABCD camp. And he was supposed to go to CAL Berkeley (my alma mater) until Don Nelson convinced him to go into the draft instead.

 

[KingGiant49erFan]

Well, Dirk, Hedo and Bargnani are all very athletic for their size, and so was Vlade in his younger days. Ilgauskus is just huge.

But I'm thinking more about Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Andre Kirilenko, Rudy Fernandez, Pau Gasol and Jose Calderon, who are all extremely athletic. I mean, Fernandez competed in the dunk contest.

Successful-but-unathletic Euros like Jasekavicius, Navarro, Marko Jaric, Jiri Welsch and others have fared less well.

Manu is from South America but I digress . Anyway, I dont understand really why this has turned into a debate of "which quality makes prospects bust: athleticism or skills?" This is similar in structure/solution to the nature/nurture problem.. after constant debate about which factor caused behavior it was determined that they both interact and work together to influence behavior. In the same way, players bust every single year because of lack of athleticism (and others succeed despite it) and players also bust every single year because of lack of skill (and others succeed despite it), so really what it comes down to is neither side of this debate should throw out the league (ncaa or euro) as a positive or negative. Also, as one last aside, I believe you are underrating Rubio's quickness.

 

[rainmaker]

While I do agree with the arguement that Rubio isn't facing guys as athletic in Europe as he would in college over here, he will benefit from playing 3-4 yrs pro in Europe before declaring for the draft. Eventhough he won't see the same speed and quickness as he would against the top college teams here, while most of the top college prospects we playing varsity highschool ball, Rubio was playing major minutes in the second best pro league in the world. Rubio can't control who he matches up against, but so far he has exceeded the highest of expectations every step of the way, and at a young age.

 

[hammystyle]

I know that neither is a guarantee of success, but I still think there's less of a correlation between college success and Euroleague success. Some of the better Euroleague stars have come to the NBA and have fared extremely poorly. There are plenty of Euros who have succeeded, but they are the ones with NBA athleticism, not necessarily the ones who were most successful in Europe or who even got very much playing time.

Basically I am just trying to push back on the notion that Rubio is getting a better education in Europe than college players are here -- he's playing MEN people constantly say. Well, those men aren't particularly athletic. The level of skills is greater in Europe. But Rubio is simply not facing the type of athletic defense that exists in the US. Maybe it's a more physical defense, but he's not facing anything that compares to Lousiville's press or Jrue Holiday's or Daniel Hackett's man defense.

The pressure, the travel, the physicality -- yeah sure. But watch the Rubio videos. There's no defense being played.

I disagree with this. For every Jrue Holiday or Daniel Hackett there's ten guys who can't guard for crap in college. Particularly there are very few big men in the college ranks with the size to protect the rim. There are surely a few athletes at the college level that are probly better than anyone in Europe, but they're diluted throughout the major conferences. So maybe a guy like Teague has to face a good man to man defender every now and then, but he rarely has to face that guy with a shot-blocker behind and a group of other guys who understand how to play help defense.

Rubio is without a doubt playing at a higher level league. Its simple. Where would the top teams in the Spanish league be ranked if they were a conference in the NCAA?

 

[rainmaker]

I disagree with this. For every Jrue Holiday or Daniel Hackett there's ten guys who can't guard for crap in college. Particularly there are very few big men in the college ranks with the size to protect the rim. There are surely a few athletes at the college level that are probly better than anyone in Europe, but they're diluted throughout the major conferences. So maybe a guy like Teague has to face a good man to man defender every now and then, but he rarely has to face that guy with a shot-blocker behind and a group of other guys who understand how to play help defense.

Rubio is without a doubt playing at a higher level league. Its simple. Where would the top teams in the Spanish league be ranked if they were a conference in the NCAA?

I agree with you. Rubio is facing tougher competition every night out. Also you can't forget that he's been doing it since he was 15.

 

[beb0p]

Rubio is without a doubt playing at a higher level league. Its simple. Where would the top teams in the Spanish league be ranked if they were a conference in the NCAA?

Soccer is sometimes a great analogy and lesson for basketball because soccer has been globalized since the 1930s. And soccer fans have to deal with this crossed-region projection of players: that star players from one style sometimes can't adjust and flames out when put in another style.

Just like the ACB and the NBA, countries in Europe (and also within Europe), South America, and North America plays very distinct style of soccer with emphasis on different abilites. Quickness and skill in Brazil. Size and toughness in Germany. etc. The greatest American player ever, Landon Donovan sucked when he played in Germany because his fineseness couldn't handle the high-elbow, roundhouse kick to the chest style of soccer. but Frankie Hejduk, an altogether inferior player to Donovan, strived in Germany where his speed and toughness was much welcomed.

The ACB is probably is higher level of competition than the NCAA, but the point is ACB plays a very different style of basketball from the NBA. It's like the style between Germany and Brazil. No soccer fan would ever say you can always take the best German player, put him on a team in Brazil, and he'll strive. Different style favors different type of players. The NBA style favors speed and athleticism. The ACB doesn't. The point is it's not as simple as which league is better. The NCAA prepares players for the NBA because it plays a similar style of ball to the NBA, and the ACB doesn't.

 

[SkinnerBox]

I think you mean "thrive"

but good points.

 

[hrdboild]

Soccer is sometimes a great analogy and lesson for basketball because soccer has been globalized since the 1930s. And soccer fans have to deal with this crossed-region projection of players: that star players from one style sometimes can't adjust and flames out when put in another style.

Just like the ACB and the NBA, countries in Europe (and also within Europe), South America, and North America plays very distinct style of soccer with emphasis on different abilites. Quickness and skill in Brazil. Size and toughness in Germany. etc. The greatest American player ever, Landon Donovan sucked when he played in Germany because his fineseness couldn't handle the high-elbow, roundhouse kick to the chest style of soccer. but Frankie Hejduk, an altogether inferior player to Donovan, strived in Germany where his speed and toughness was much welcomed.

The ACB is probably is higher level of competition than the NCAA, but the point is ACB plays a very different style of basketball from the NBA. It's like the style between Germany and Brazil. No soccer fan would ever say you can always take the best German player, put him on a team in Brazil, and he'll strive. Different style favors different type of players. The NBA style favors speed and athleticism. The ACB doesn't. The point is it's not as simple as which league is better. The NCAA prepares players for the NBA because it plays a similar style of ball to the NBA, and the ACB doesn't.

Excellent analogy, thank you. That pretty much sums up my concerns about Rubio. No doubt he's a hall-of-fame player in the Spanish League and the Euro League if he plays his career there. But how does that translate to the NBA? There's really no way of knowing until we see him in action. There's definitely risk involved for whoever drafts him.

 

[HighTopKicks]

I know that neither is a guarantee of success, but I still think there's less of a correlation between college success and Euroleague success. Some of the better Euroleague stars have come to the NBA and have fared extremely poorly. There are plenty of Euros who have succeeded, but they are the ones with NBA athleticism, not necessarily the ones who were most successful in Europe or who even got very much playing time.

Basically I am just trying to push back on the notion that Rubio is getting a better education in Europe than college players are here -- he's playing MEN people constantly say. Well, those men aren't particularly athletic. The level of skills is greater in Europe. But Rubio is simply not facing the type of athletic defense that exists in the US. Maybe it's a more physical defense, but he's not facing anything that compares to Lousiville's press or Jrue Holiday's or Daniel Hackett's man defense.

The pressure, the travel, the physicality -- yeah sure. But watch the Rubio videos. There's no defense being played.

Interesting idea. You obviously watch more college ball than I do, so let me ask you this. What percentage of college teams today, play an NBA type defense as compared to how many Euro teams plays an NBA type defense. I know that when I watch college games, I get really bored watching so many teams playing the Zone. Bigs fighting for position, while the wings pass the ball around the arc. And, you don't see to many college teams running the pick & roll. Why is that? Thanks

 

[Oprostaj]

Yes, the fact that the leauges are different is the biggest concern for me, those are great points, and I cannot argue them. There is a risk involved with every player. Nobody is saying we should pick Rubio because he's white and can pass. We're saying pick Rubio because he's proven he's a top notch player who shows an uncanny ability to pass, get his teammates involved and compete in a professional leauge, and has done it since he was 15. 15... come on. Yes... his game might not translate. If you're looking for a sure thing, trade the picks for proven players I guess.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Soccer is sometimes a great analogy and lesson for basketball because soccer has been globalized since the 1930s. And soccer fans have to deal with this crossed-region projection of players: that star players from one style sometimes can't adjust and flames out when put in another style.

Just like the ACB and the NBA, countries in Europe (and also within Europe), South America, and North America plays very distinct style of soccer with emphasis on different abilites. Quickness and skill in Brazil. Size and toughness in Germany. etc. The greatest American player ever, Landon Donovan sucked when he played in Germany because his fineseness couldn't handle the high-elbow, roundhouse kick to the chest style of soccer. but Frankie Hejduk, an altogether inferior player to Donovan, strived in Germany where his speed and toughness was much welcomed.

The ACB is probably is higher level of competition than the NCAA, but the point is ACB plays a very different style of basketball from the NBA. It's like the style between Germany and Brazil. No soccer fan would ever say you can always take the best German player, put him on a team in Brazil, and he'll strive. Different style favors different type of players. The NBA style favors speed and athleticism. The ACB doesn't. The point is it's not as simple as which league is better. The NCAA prepares players for the NBA because it plays a similar style of ball to the NBA, and the ACB doesn't.

As a huge "Soccer" fan, I have to jump in here. Donovan struggled because he sucks. By any real standards, he's really not a good player at all. Arrogant? Yes. Good? No. He struggled at Bayern because he just wasn't good enough. He clearly thinks he's better than he is. The MLS is an extremely weak league. Frankie Hejduk did better but he was hardly anything to write home about. He struggled to get in the Leverkusen team and only got a chance due to injuries. He did decent, but failed to hold down a place. He didn't get a whole lot of games before he eventually moved on. I also disagree that Donavan is Americas best player ever. He's failed to prove himself on any level outside of the MLS (which is weak to say the least). I'd argue that both Tim Howard and Brad Friedel are better players as they've, at the very least, held down starting positions in good English sides (best league in the world).

Anyway, I guess your initial point still stands, although I don't really get the point as it also stands for college ball, not just Euro.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Yes, the fact that the leauges are different is the biggest concern for me, those are great points, and I cannot argue them. There is a risk involved with every player. Nobody is saying we should pick Rubio because he's white and can pass. We're saying pick Rubio because he's proven he's a top notch player who shows an uncanny ability to pass, get his teammates involved and compete in a professional leauge, and has done it since he was 15. 15... come on. Yes... his game might not translate. If you're looking for a sure thing, trade the picks for proven players I guess.

Just to clarify... Rubio has been a pro since 14, not 15.

 

[Aenadin]

14!? against pros right... no junior leaguers no hs varsity..

and when hes not playing he goes to school too...

a child phenom! thats it!! get him!

 

[hammystyle]

The ACB is probably is higher level of competition than the NCAA, but the point is ACB plays a very different style of basketball from the NBA. It's like the style between Germany and Brazil. No soccer fan would ever say you can always take the best German player, put him on a team in Brazil, and he'll strive. Different style favors different type of players. The NBA style favors speed and athleticism. The ACB doesn't. The point is it's not as simple as which league is better. The NCAA prepares players for the NBA because it plays a similar style of ball to the NBA, and the ACB doesn't.

Not really true. The college game doesn't look anything like the NBA game. Very few pllay an honest NBA-style 1,2,3,4,5...most have some smattering of 6'1 combo guards and small forwards without a true point or post player. There isn't nearly as much pick and roll, isolation, or post play.

My guess is that college and Euro ball are actually more alike because of the focus on skill and shooting vs size and athleticism. Jump shooting and zone defense.

This is all in regards to Teague vs Rubio. I think we'd all feel better about Rubio as a prospect if he were a 18 year old collegian averaging something like 13 ppg 7.7 apg 5rpg, 3.8spg and pushing his team towards the sweet 16. So I'll agree it harder to know what his play as a 17-18 year old playing pro and olympic ball at the highest level in Europe means compared to what Teague's play in the ACC means. But that doesn't necessarily mean one prepares you better than the other....and there is no doubt who is playing against the tougher comp.

 

[nbrans]

Not really true. The college game doesn't look anything like the NBA game. Very few pllay an honest NBA-style 1,2,3,4,5...most have some smattering of 6'1 combo guards and small forwards without a true point or post player. There isn't nearly as much pick and roll, isolation, or post play.

My guess is that college and Euro ball are actually more alike because of the focus on skill and shooting vs size and athleticism. Jump shooting and zone defense.

This is all in regards to Teague vs Rubio. I think we'd all feel better about Rubio as a prospect if he were a 18 year old collegian averaging something like 13 ppg 7.7 apg 5rpg, 3.8spg and pushing his team towards the sweet 16. So I'll agree it harder to know what his play as a 17-18 year old playing pro and olympic ball at the highest level in Europe means compared to what Teague's play in the ACC means. But that doesn't necessarily mean one prepares you better than the other....and there is no doubt who is playing against the tougher comp.

I disagree with this to a certain extent, especially your premise that both the Euro league and the NCAA favor skills over athleticism. Just about every college team has a white guy from some Midwest state who comes in and bombs 3s, but for the most part, particularly because these are young players who haven't developed their skills, and particularly for the major conferences, the emphasis is on athleticism over skills.

Al-Farouq Aminu, Gani Lawal, Hasheem Thabeet, DeMar DeRozan, Tyreke Evans ... these are raw players who haven't yet developed their skills. I'd wager there's hardly anyone like these guys getting good playing time in the European leagues. They're not skilled enough. But wow are they athletic.

And there is one thing that lots of athletic-but-unskilled guys can do: play defense. I'd bet that particularly because of the athleticism, the defense is better overall in the NCAA than in the Euro League. But it's not really something you'd be able to prove unless these teams start going up against each other.

 

[Gary]

Well they would have to have a skill to market themselves, or they would turn into Justin Williams who can rebound, and block a few shots on the weak side.. If Williams could have played D he might still be in the league.

If the guys you mentioned couldn't play D at least a little they wouldn't have a chance of making it.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I honestly think this pick, in terms of point guards at least, is going to come down to the work outs. Seeing guys like Rubio, Teague, Jennings and Holiday go at it on the same court. That would be awesome to see, and particularly telling I would imagine. Unfortunately, Geoff would pick the one who shot 28-30 for threes but let his man burn him all day long.

 

[hammystyle]

I disagree with this to a certain extent, especially your premise that both the Euro league and the NCAA favor skills over athleticism. Just about every college team has a white guy from some Midwest state who comes in and bombs 3s, but for the most part, particularly because these are young players who haven't developed their skills, and particularly for the major conferences, the emphasis is on athleticism over skills.

Al-Farouq Aminu, Gani Lawal, Hasheem Thabeet, DeMar DeRozan, Tyreke Evans ... these are raw players who haven't yet developed their skills. I'd wager there's hardly anyone like these guys getting good playing time in the European leagues. They're not skilled enough. But wow are they athletic.

And there is one thing that lots of athletic-but-unskilled guys can do: play defense. I'd bet that particularly because of the athleticism, the defense is better overall in the NCAA than in the Euro League. But it's not really something you'd be able to prove unless these teams start going up against each other.

I just think that while the top level guys you mentioned are individually more athletically gifted than just about anyone getting serious run in the ACB league, they're so diluted throughout the college ranks that the ACB probly plays a better overall standard of D. Very few teams in the college ranks have defensive big men 6' 10" and up. Plus experience is damn near as important to defense as athleticism. Derrick Rose has all the athletic talent in the world to be a top notch defender and I'm sure he will be one day, but he's getting killed right now. So much so that according to David Thorpe he's getting pulled late in games for Kirk Hinrich.

Also I don't know if who's over there now, but the Euro leagues do take a lot of unskilled super athletes who just don't make the NBA cut. Anthony Parker, Maceo Baston, Maurice Evans are three off the top of my head.

So there are very likely more guys in NCAA who have the physical gifts to one day play NBA defense, but they're more spread out and they're really not experienced enough to be good defenders off the bat. So I'm sticking that the professional, experienced grown men in the ACB play better defense overall than NCAA teams. I'd guess much better.

 

[gvucko]

And there is one thing that lots of athletic-but-unskilled guys can do: play defense. I'd bet that particularly because of the athleticism, the defense is better overall in the NCAA than in the Euro League. But it's not really something you'd be able to prove unless these teams start going up against each other.

I would turn the your sentence around. The unathletic but skilled guys can play team defense (and team defense is what they teach in Europe). That is why Nocioni is screaming "high pick".

While I do agree that athleticism can and is a great in both defense and offense but one on one. But basketball is playing team ball.

I would also argue that Euroleague (has not only better defense (team vise) than NCAA but better as NBA as well. It is just that NBA has better players (much better as the europe greatest players and even just talents end up in NBA anyways) and more crowd pleasing, attractive game.

The second fact is that your typical Euro team plays 2 (3 max) games a week and only one of those in Eurolegue (+ the break between first and second round). The remaining game or two is usually played in domestic or regional leagues which is generally not as strong (but the derbies between euro rivals).

This gives your typical team much time to work at their game with defense always emphasized.

And all of this benefits Rickys play tremendously.

 

[nbrans]

I just think that while the top level guys you mentioned are individually more athletically gifted than just about anyone getting serious run in the ACB league, they're so diluted throughout the college ranks that the ACB probly plays a better overall standard of D. Very few teams in the college ranks have defensive big men 6' 10" and up. Plus experience is damn near as important to defense as athleticism. Derrick Rose has all the athletic talent in the world to be a top notch defender and I'm sure he will be one day, but he's getting killed right now. So much so that according to David Thorpe he's getting pulled late in games for Kirk Hinrich.

Also I don't know if who's over there now, but the Euro leagues do take a lot of unskilled super athletes who just don't make the NBA cut. Anthony Parker, Maceo Baston, Maurice Evans are three off the top of my head.

So there are very likely more guys in NCAA who have the physical gifts to one day play NBA defense, but they're more spread out and they're really not experienced enough to be good defenders off the bat. So I'm sticking that the professional, experienced grown men in the ACB play better defense overall than NCAA teams. I'd guess much better.

Honestly, intuitively this makes a lot of sense. Experience, size, skill.... yeah. Those are all advantages the Euro leagues have over the NCAA.

But then you watch a video like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQvpwR8-Pck

I'm sorry, there's something being played there, but it's not called defense.

Size and experience does not necessarily result in better defense. I think the athleticism of the NCAA is much, much more concentrated than you say it is. The Euro leagues don't have anything like the athleticism of Wake Forest or Tennessee or Louisville or UConn or USC or most of the teams in the top 25 and at the major conferences. The athletes up and down those rosters are incredible. And even though the skill level isn't always there, they tend to be good defenders and their coaches get a lot out of them.

Again, it's all subjective. And yeah, college players have an adjustment to the NBA. But from what I've seen, the athleticism of the NCAA trumps what I've seen from the Euro leagues, and I think it results in better defense.

 

[Kingsroots]

As a huge "Soccer" fan, I have to jump in here. Donovan struggled because he sucks. By any real standards, he's really not a good player at all. Arrogant? Yes. Good? No. He struggled at Bayern because he just wasn't good enough. He clearly thinks he's better than he is. The MLS is an extremely weak league. Frankie Hejduk did better but he was hardly anything to write home about. He struggled to get in the Leverkusen team and only got a chance due to injuries. He did decent, but failed to hold down a place. He didn't get a whole lot of games before he eventually moved on. I also disagree that Donavan is Americas best player ever. He's failed to prove himself on any level outside of the MLS (which is weak to say the least). I'd argue that both Tim Howard and Brad Friedel are better players as they've, at the very least, held down starting positions in good English sides (best league in the world).

Anyway, I guess your initial point still stands, although I don't really get the point as it also stands for college ball, not just Euro.

I agree. There are at least 3 to 4 players better than Donovan at this point in Donovan's career. At the top of my list is Brian McBride & Claudio Reyna. Then Wynaldo and Donovan would be like number 4 I guess.

I will say though that Donovan is still only like what 27?

 

[nbrans]

I would also argue that Euroleague (has not only better defense (team vise) than NCAA but better as NBA as well. It is just that NBA has better players (much better as the europe greatest players and even just talents end up in NBA anyways) and more crowd pleasing, attractive game.

Uh........ no. Sorry. That's just nuts. The NBA has the "crowd pleasing attractive game" and the Euros play better defense?

What alternate world do you live in?

Other than Andre Kirlenko and to a much, much lesser extent Andres Nocioni, what Euro league players have come over and been good defenders? They're terrible! I don't care how many screens they call out, they're not guarding anyone.

 

[KingGiant49erFan]

Honestly, intuitively this makes a lot of sense. Experience, size, skill.... yeah. Those are all advantages the Euro leagues have over the NCAA.

But then you watch a video like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQvpwR8-Pck

I'm sorry, there's something being played there, but it's not called defense.

Size and experience does not necessarily result in better defense. I think the athleticism of the NCAA is much, much more concentrated than you say it is. The Euro leagues don't have anything like the athleticism of Wake Forest or Tennessee or Louisville or UConn or USC or most of the teams in the top 25 and at the major conferences. The athletes up and down those rosters are incredible. And even though the skill level isn't always there, they tend to be good defenders and their coaches get a lot out of them.

Again, it's all subjective. And yeah, college players have an adjustment to the NBA. But from what I've seen, the athleticism of the NCAA trumps what I've seen from the Euro leagues, and I think it results in better defense.

So you watch that video and one of your main complaints about him is lack of foot speed? Do you think the Euro's are just that slow? Also, with his ball handling ability he's going to be able to beat his man in the NBA.