Reke & IT, Do They Mesh?
- Thread starter rainmaker
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rainmaker
Hall of Famer
It included every min they're shared the court this season as well as total mins. 800+ mins. Per 36 is completely acceptable as it's not like they're only playing 5-10 mins each but are two of our bigger min guys. As far as Cuz, yes he's a huge factor, and total team numbers, yes that's a factor and if you'd like to do a thread on it, do it. No one else around here has taken the time to do any of this so feel free to step up.
Funny how I take the time to do this and the problem is it's not enough. Feel free to present your own thread.
Look at the bright side: at least you had the afterglow of a win for your birthday! The last time the Kings won on or around my birthday was 2002.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
This seems to be typical of this forum and perhaps every kind of forum. Someone will bust their butt and then just get a ration of crap for what they came up with. Let's thank the guys and gals who put out the effort and if we disagree, fine. There are ways of disagreeing in a pleasant manner and there are ways of being nasty. We are all fans of the same team, right?
gunks
Hall of Famer
Dude is one of the best passers in the game. IT passes about as much as Kobe.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Very good.
Heck, there are people who have no chance of having a game on their birthday. I also watched the 49ers so it was a sweep.Seriously? In what way would my response be "nasty"? Its not like I went off on him for being a Reke hugger who hates IT and has a clear agenda against him.
I like this forum because it's a good place to discuss Kings basketball. Just because I disagree with what he came up with and the manner he used these particular stats to present his argument, doesn't mean I don't appreciate his thoughts or opinion.
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Anywho, back to the topic at hand. The problem with using the format you did is it doesn't really give us a clear picture of an IT-Tyreke guard line. They've played a total of 325 minutes on the floor together over 20 games which= 16.2 MPG. Not exactly a huge sample size to begin with, but enough to get an ok idea how these guys operate. 47 of those 325 minutes have Tyreke out of position with Marcus Thornton at SG. We can all agree that Tyreke at SF, especially with Thornton, is terrible for his offensive involvement.
That in mind, we're down to 13.9 MPG with IT and Tyreke as our PG-SG. A big chunk of those minutes(100) was our original starting lineup with IT-Reke-JJ-JT-Cousins when Reke or JJ couldn't hit an outside jumper to save their life. No one was producing in that lineup offensively. It's difficult to really give that group any weight as Reke is a much different player/shooter and Salmons+new JJ are a lot more conducive to offensive success for everyone.
That leaves us with 178 minutes (or the equivalent of 8.9 MPG) of IT and Reke playing their natural positions with everyone performing at or close to their expected talent level. Call me crazy, but that's enough time for me to really make a quality determination of that duo. This is discounting a variety of other factors that play into the success or failure of an IT-Reke backcourt as well including who was on the floor with them
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I didn't mention you, did I?
UK_King
Starter
As i said I'm not comparing IT and Chris Paul. The question was about "midget PG's" who play on good teams.
panda
G-League
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_guard
*in 2011 the average height was 6'1*
"A point guard's job is to create scoring opportunities for his team, or sometimes attack the basket. Lee Rose has described a point guard as a coach on the floor, who can handle and distribute the ball to teammates.[1] This involves setting up plays on the court, getting the ball to the teammate in the best position to score, and controlling the tempo of the game"
Neither IT or Brooks come to mind reading that description, but Tyreke does. Thomas will be a better team player when he moves past this Napoleon phase, but until that happens, he won't mesh with anybody.
*in 2011 the average height was 6'1*
"A point guard's job is to create scoring opportunities for his team, or sometimes attack the basket. Lee Rose has described a point guard as a coach on the floor, who can handle and distribute the ball to teammates.[1] This involves setting up plays on the court, getting the ball to the teammate in the best position to score, and controlling the tempo of the game"
Neither IT or Brooks come to mind reading that description, but Tyreke does. Thomas will be a better team player when he moves past this Napoleon phase, but until that happens, he won't mesh with anybody.
UK_King
Starter
The NBA is moving away from the pass first point. These definitions are way out of date when you look at people like D-Rose, Westbrook, Kyrie, Curry.
Tyreke is a scorer, if you put him at the point, as i would, he would be a scoring PG. But his skills are so unique on this team the passing would just blossom, especially next to someone like a Jimmer and in P&R with a skilled player like Cuz. I see no reason why reke wouldn't have stats like Westbrook. It's crazy to me that Westbrook averages 8 assists a game, he is one of the most selfish players I have ever seen and jacks up absolutely horrible shots. Reke is a far more willing passer than him IMO.
Of course you still have people like Rondo and Paul, Rubio, Nash, Calderon who will dish first you can no longer say a PG must do this and that.
(and NO I'm not comparing these people to IT before anyone says that)
Tyreke is a scorer, if you put him at the point, as i would, he would be a scoring PG. But his skills are so unique on this team the passing would just blossom, especially next to someone like a Jimmer and in P&R with a skilled player like Cuz. I see no reason why reke wouldn't have stats like Westbrook. It's crazy to me that Westbrook averages 8 assists a game, he is one of the most selfish players I have ever seen and jacks up absolutely horrible shots. Reke is a far more willing passer than him IMO.
Of course you still have people like Rondo and Paul, Rubio, Nash, Calderon who will dish first you can no longer say a PG must do this and that.
(and NO I'm not comparing these people to IT before anyone says that)
One thing Reke needs to do is watch film. I haven't heard him ever say that he's been watching film of certain players. Kevin Martin used ot watch lots of film of Rip Hamilton, and it's no surprise that he became a lot better at moving off the ball. Tyreke has been getting better at moving without the ball, but he still needs to be more forceful with his cuts, learn to brush defenders off of screens and just react faster to any holes in the defense. For the first 4 minutes of the Hornets game he just stood in the corner, made some random cuts but never once touched the ball. As a PG it's also not wise to pass the ball to a guy in the corner to start his move. Reke has to learn to make himself more visible to his team mates if he wants the ball - dive towards the basket and post up his man and call for the ball from the elbow. It's true that guys like Chalmers and Fisher would always look to get Kobe/Wade/James the ball first, but on their part you'll rarely see these guys just standing in the corner not calling for the ball, and certainly not for 3 minutes straight.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Look, Barea was the guy in that series. Not Kidd. Barea did the damage to Miami in a big way. Miami had no answer for him. Kidd was just a guy throwing the ball around the perimeter, whereas Barea was the guy consistently piercing through the Miami defense. He drove Miami nuts and anybody watching that series should have seen it.
Padrino
All-Star
indeed. assists are down league-wide, as is scoring, as is field goal percentage, as is the general pace of a given offensive set. nba defenses are getting more physical and more sophisticated, in spite of rule changes that were meant to keep more points up on the board. it's a rarity to find the caliber of point guard who can routinely carve up those defenses with the pass in the contemporary nba, hence the emergence of the scoring point guard. every kings fan clamoring for an assist machine is just shouting against the deluge. nobody ever seems to pay it any mind, but i routinely like to point out that oklahoma city is ranked in the back half of the pack in assists per game (21.6, good for 19th in the league) while maintaining their status as #1 in the nba in scoring. they don't move the ball particularly well. what they do is get the ball to their most talented offensive players in a position to score. that said, a team with a power center in demarcus cousins and a power guard in tyreke evans should not be attempting to run a fast-paced motion offense. instead, you put in place a half court offensive system that's centered around getting the ball to demarcus cousins on the low block, where he can make a play at the basket or kick out...
Glenn
Hall of Famer
If your primary scorers are NOT PGs, don't you still need a pass first PG as quaint as that may sound? Otherwise you shut out Cuz, Tyreke, and MT all of whom can score better than IT and Brooks. Certainly the PG must be able to shoot but if he has it in his mind that he must score for the good of the team, he's on the wrong team. I will continue to clamor against the deluge because on THIS team, a scoring PG is shutting out a bunch of players. IT seems to be in the deluge except he has a connection with Cuz. I don't know how Brooks sees himself but he seems to work fine with Tyreke. I don't think any pattern can be determined for Jimmer as he tends to be inserted when the team is behind and it seems clear that his instruction is to shoot.
Anyway, by virtue of who our best scorers are, a shoot first PG seems to freeze them out. I don't see the good in that.
Padrino
All-Star
in my estimation, the kings need neither a "pass first point guard" nor a "scoring point guard." what they need is what they used to have: a utility player like beno udrih who can accomplish a variety of tasks from within the flow of the offense while mostly staying out of the way. what they do not need is what they currently have: a glut of shoot-first combo guards who, as you noted, "shut out" the likes of demarcus cousins and tyreke evans...
DesertFox
Starter
Well if they drafted Jimmer with the assumption that he was Beno with a 3pt shot, the solution is already here.
I can see a winning 3 guard combo of Reke/Jimmer/IT, with Salmons backing up the 2/3, if the team had a real SF.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
JJ is a real SF.
Padrino
All-Star
that's a poor assumption, as the two players aren't nearly as comparable as kings fans might like them to be. though i do believe that jimmer has the capability to become a mid-level utility player in that vein, provided he has a head coach who can help to keep the reigns on him. he's done much better in such a capacity of late. regardless, i'd amend my prior post to say that what the kings need is a veteran point guard like beno udrih who can accomplish a variety of tasks from within the flow of the offense while mostly staying out of the way. incoming ownership or not, the time to make a push is still now, with a couple of special talents of uncertain future contract status and a western conference playoff race up for grabs. ship out the extraneous combo guards, bring back a few veterans who can help to stabilize the rotation, and the kings may have something to work with...
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Problem is that he is nowhere near the ballhandler Beno is, and he likes to shoot. A lot. I do think he may have the ability to restrain that in certain lineups, but his instincts are a long way from Beno's.
UK_King
Starter
Jimmers main strength is his shooting, i suppose it's conceivable that you work with him to become that role playing PG but why take an excellent shooter and coach him to be a non shooter.
It's like taking reke and coaching him not to drive to the hoop and just stand about in the corner... hehe.
It's like taking reke and coaching him not to drive to the hoop and just stand about in the corner... hehe.
Just so we're clear I'm not picking on your argument, just using it to build mine.
This to me is why (in your words) IT is my flavour of the month. The whole of last season he was getting praised left and right by guys saying that he's a pass-first PG, that he can average 8 assists/game, that he's the only one on the entire team that makes the offense work and sets guys up. These same people are the ones who say that Tyreke only ever passes as a last option when he is blocked off from scoring. Fast forward to this season and IT is frankly speaking, clearly not that sort of PG. And now I get guys like you saying that the NBA is moving away from the pass first point, and Kingster bringing up JJ Barea, who did indeed carve up the Mavs defense, but was SCORING the whole time and not setting guys up. So in other words, IT never loses does he? When he's setting guys up he's the next coming of Steve Nash and is God's way of making up for us having ball-hog Tyreke. When he's not it's fine, because apparently a pass first point isn't necessary these days, and it's perfectly fine for our starting PG to average 3 assists per game. And when I bring that up people tell me that assists don't tell the whole story, and that IT is still vital to running our offense.
In the meantime, Tyreke has gotten so much criticism from these same posters over the last 2 years, particularly for being a selfish player. So excuse me if I feel like shoving IT's non-PG play in their faces every once in a while. But as I have shown, it appears that IT is infallible to these guys so I pretty much don't bother any more. I don't know where you stand with regards to your love for IT but you have been defending him a lot as of late. I did not see you do such things for Tyreke.
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gunks
Hall of Famer
For the record, I do think IT is a good player. I'm not one of those who says he's a midget and is useless defensively and all. In a separate thread UK_king was complaining about people on the board hating on players, first jimmer and now Thomas. My "witchhunt" is to let him know that this has been going on with Tyreke far longer than with IT, and I don't recall him having a problem with it then. If he did then I apologise and am clearly not remembering correctly.
UK_King
Starter
All good points, personally i will defend any player who i think is being unfairly singled out as the fall guy. I don't have any "love" for IT, i do like him because i think he's a great character and great person more than anything but my love is for the team, if IT was traded to help us win more games, great! If he's the 12 man and were winning great, I'm not bothered. I feel the same way about all the players.
If you see in my post i said i would have Tyreke at the point, I've long argued for that. I'm in a fairly small group of people who still think he could run the team so to say I'm not a Tyreke fan is just not true, If i was the coach my whole offense would centre around Tyreke as the ball handler, but hey, I'm not the coach so it is what it is.
And my argument about the NBA culture moving away from pass first wasn't to defend or negate anyone on this team, it was just to show that looking up a definition of "PG" and expecting whoever starts there must do this and must do that is just not a reality any more.
One thing i think we can all agree on is this team is poorly structured and needs to lose some scorers to evolve. Until it does we'll be standing still it's as simple as that.
And in fact I agree with you on pretty much all fronts, both about wanting the team to win and about the role of PGs in today's NBA. I do admit that I particularly like Tyreke as a player and as long as he's on the team I wish to see him succeed. I just find it silly that some posters (who said Tyreke fails as a PG because he doesn't pass first, or that Cousins needs a pure PG to be at his best) were praising IT for being the pure PG we needed last season, but have now swung to say we need his scoring and all that when IT's assists have gone down. You can't sit on both sides of the fence (not referring to you specifically)!
I actually like IT, particularly when he was hitting his 3s at a very good rate. Like you said, he brings heart to the team and that's a valuable commodity to have. But in all honesty, you don't build your team around a guy like him. You build it around guys like Cuz and Evans (who I wish would become a better student of the game. He has the skills and tools, but doesn't display much savvy on the offensive end), and for that reason I'd prefer if IT could focus on setting guys up more and not jacking up so many shots. He did just that against ... Washington? I don't remember, but I did praise him for visibly looking to set his team mates up more. The team plays a lot better when he looks to get others involved.
Chupacabra
Starter
Why have we gone away from the Brooks/Evans/Salmons combo? Isnt that the combination of players that got this team playing .500 basketball?
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