Rebounding Stats: A surprise actually

[fnordius]

So upon semi-request from another thread (by a KT fan obviously) I decided to crunch the rebounding numbers for our team of board monsters once again. As usual, the way to do this is to normalize to rebounds/per 48 min. As it got kind of involved, figured a separate thread was in order:


Thomas 23.4min 6.3reb 12.9reb/48 (05/06: 12.9; Career: 12.0) NBA Rank: 45 of 157 PF (71.3%) PF
Miller 28.8min 6.7reb 11.2reb/48 (05/06: 10.1; Career: 12.5) NBA Rank: 68 of 119 (42.9%) C
Reef 25.3min 5.1reb 9.7reb/48 (05/06: 8.8; Career: 10.3) NBA Rank: 91 of 119(23.5%) C
Artest 37.0min 6.7reb 8.7reb/48 (05/06: 6.2; Career: 7.0) NBA Rank: 19 of 100 (81.0%) SF
Corliss 19.0min 3.1reb 7.8reb/48 (05/06: 8.8; Career: 8.2) NBA Rank: 133 of 157 (15.3%) PF
Salmons 27.3min 3.7reb 6.5reb/48 (05/06: 5.2; Career: 5.8) NBA Rank: 54 of 100 (46.0%) SF
Cisco 15.4min 2.0reb 6.2reb/48 (05/06: 6.9; Career: 6.4) NBA Rank: 53 of 146 (63.7%) OG
Martin 35.7min 4.2reb 5.6reb/48 (05/06: 6.5; Career: 6.1) NBA Rank: 74 of 146 (49.3%) OG
Bibby 35.1min 3.2reb 4.4reb/48 (05/06: 3.6; Career: 4.3) NBA Rank: 37 of 69 (46.4%) PG

----------Below this line statistically dubious--------------------------------------
Price 9.6min 1.1reb 5.7reb/48 (05/06: 4.8; Career: 5.4) NBA Rank: 70 of 146 OG
Douby 6.5min 0.7reb 5.2reb/48 ----------------------- NBA Rank: 93 of 146 OG
-------------------------Below this line REALLY statistically dubious---------------------------------
Williams 6.2min 2.5reb 19.4reb/48 ---------------------- NBA Rank: 3 of 157 PF
Taylor 8.6min 2.3reb 12.8reb/48 (05/06: 9.0; Career: 8.8) NBA Rank: 44 of 157 PF
Hart 7.7min 1.2reb 7.5reb.48 (05/06: 4.3; Career: 5.3) NBA Rank: 4 of 69 PG
Potapenko 4.5min 0.5reb 5.3reb/48 (05/06: 8.5; Career: 11.5) NBA Rank: 117 of 119 C


Analysis:

If I told you that Brad, Reef, Ron and Mike were all rebounding better than last year, and that KT was rebounding the same, you would think that we should be doing at least as well as last year right? Only Kevin and Cisco have declined, but that of course doubly hurts since they are taking the place of the guy who covered up these warts last year with the freakish OG rebounding (Bonzi).

So Who Is To Blame?:

and most of all:

(do not forget Geoff)


Fact is that looking at the above numbers for our core players (ignoring the speculative limited minutes guys):
1) Mike is largely average at PG, slighty below
2) Kevin is average at OG
3) Salmons/Cisco are average at SF, above average at OG
4) Ron is Top 20% this year at SF
5) Kenny is Top 30% at PF
6) Brad is below average at C, but not awful like last year

So..so far, so average. Just looking at the above, if everybody just plays major minutes at their natural positions we should be right around average on the glass with that crew. Not good. But mediocre (story of our franchise anymore).

BUT:
Reef is pathetic for a backup center (bottom 25%)
Corliss is pathetic for a backup PF ( bottom 20%)

Which is hardly surprising given that Reef is NOT a center, and Corliss is NOT a PF. Smallballing, our old nemesis, only Muss plays our best C rebounder and best PF rebounder far less than Rick did.


Remedy:
The numbers say that if you played this rotation:

C- Brad 35+mpg (below average))
PF- Kenny 35+mpg (above average)
SF- Ron 35+mpg (good)
OG- Kevin 35+mpg (average)
PG- Mike 35+mpg (average)

SF- Salmons (average)
OG- Cisco (above average)
PG- Price (above average) (limited minutes, but likely)
PF- Williams (good) (limited minutes, but likely)
C- ? (Williams I guess)

that you would be an average rebounding team. Not sure if the numbers tell the whole story (i.e. our pace somewhat inflates our individual numbers -- we are somewhat worse than the numebrs themselves appear), but that's what they say.

I was bored to tears while the site was unreachable for a while, so I looked over the figures as well... mine are slightly different, apparently some of our stats aren't quite as fresh (or accurate) as others, but, for what it's worth...

Points per 48
KMart: 28.4
RonRon: 24.1
Bibby: 23.1
Corliss: 21.9
SAR: 18.6
Ronnie: 17.2
Douby: 17.0
Justin: 16.3
Brad: 16.3
Salmons: 14.7
Cisco: 14.5
KT: 10.9

Rebounds per 48
Justin: 20.1
KT: 13.2
Brad: 11.2
SAR: 9.7
RonRon: 8.7
Corliss: 7.8
Salmons: 6.5
Cisco: 6.2
KMart: 5.7
Price: 5.6
Douby: 5.2
Bibby: 4.4

I'll skip interpreting the rebounding stats, since Brick has already done an excellent job of looking at them by position. But I think it's possible from the above to see why Muss might not be giving KT more playing time: he may not consider the rebounds to be worth the loss in points per minute, where KT is in last place by a fairly wide margin.

 

[fnordius]

Weird... my reply went to the top of the thread?!?

 

[nbrans]

According to 82games.com, here are the best rebound five man units, in order:

1. Salmons/Garcia/Artest/Corliss/SAR
2. Bibby/Salmons/Artest/Thomas/SAR
3. Bibby/Martin/Artest/Corliss/Miller
3. Bibby/Martin/Salmons/Thomas/Miller
5. Bibby/Martin/Salmons/Thomas/SAR
5. Bibby/Martin/Artest/Corliss/SAR

I have no idea what this means. 82games.com

 

[GoGoGadget]

Weird... my reply went to the top of the thread?!?

That's because, apparently, Brick has managed to someone alter his mod duties to include the ability to rip a hole in the time/space continuum, and he's posting all of this tomorrow.

Either that, or we've all gained the ability to see into the future.

In which case, I will feel hugely ripped off if it only applies to message boards.

 

[GoGoGadget]

Either that, or we've all gained the ability to see into the future.

In which case, I will feel hugely ripped off if it only applies to message boards.

 

[LPKingsFan]

So upon semi-request from another thread (by a KT fan obviously) I decided to crunch the rebounding numbers for our team of board monsters once again. As usual, the way to do this is to normalize to rebounds/per 48 min. As it got kind of involved, figured a separate thread was in order:


Thomas 23.4min 6.3reb 12.9reb/48 (05/06: 12.9; Career: 12.0) NBA Rank: 45 of 157 PF (71.3%) PF
Miller 28.8min 6.7reb 11.2reb/48 (05/06: 10.1; Career: 12.5) NBA Rank: 68 of 119 (42.9%) C
Reef 25.3min 5.1reb 9.7reb/48 (05/06: 8.8; Career: 10.3) NBA Rank: 91 of 119(23.5%) C
Artest 37.0min 6.7reb 8.7reb/48 (05/06: 6.2; Career: 7.0) NBA Rank: 19 of 100 (81.0%) SF
Corliss 19.0min 3.1reb 7.8reb/48 (05/06: 8.8; Career: 8.2) NBA Rank: 133 of 157 (15.3%) PF
Salmons 27.3min 3.7reb 6.5reb/48 (05/06: 5.2; Career: 5.8) NBA Rank: 54 of 100 (46.0%) SF
Cisco 15.4min 2.0reb 6.2reb/48 (05/06: 6.9; Career: 6.4) NBA Rank: 53 of 146 (63.7%) OG
Martin 35.7min 4.2reb 5.6reb/48 (05/06: 6.5; Career: 6.1) NBA Rank: 74 of 146 (49.3%) OG
Bibby 35.1min 3.2reb 4.4reb/48 (05/06: 3.6; Career: 4.3) NBA Rank: 37 of 69 (46.4%) PG

----------Below this line statistically dubious--------------------------------------
Price 9.6min 1.1reb 5.7reb/48 (05/06: 4.8; Career: 5.4) NBA Rank: 70 of 146 OG
Douby 6.5min 0.7reb 5.2reb/48 ----------------------- NBA Rank: 93 of 146 OG
-------------------------Below this line REALLY statistically dubious---------------------------------
Williams 6.2min 2.5reb 19.4reb/48 ---------------------- NBA Rank: 3 of 157 PF
Taylor 8.6min 2.3reb 12.8reb/48 (05/06: 9.0; Career: 8.8) NBA Rank: 44 of 157 PF
Hart 7.7min 1.2reb 7.5reb.48 (05/06: 4.3; Career: 5.3) NBA Rank: 4 of 69 PG
Potapenko 4.5min 0.5reb 5.3reb/48 (05/06: 8.5; Career: 11.5) NBA Rank: 117 of 119 C


Analysis:

If I told you that Brad, Reef, Ron and Mike were all rebounding better than last year, and that KT was rebounding the same, you would think that we should be doing at least as well as last year right? Only Kevin and Cisco have declined, but that of course doubly hurts since they are taking the place of the guy who covered up these warts last year with the freakish OG rebounding (Bonzi).

So Who Is To Blame?:

and most of all:

(do not forget Geoff)


Fact is that looking at the above numbers for our core players (ignoring the speculative limited minutes guys):
1) Mike is largely average at PG, slighty below
2) Kevin is average at OG
3) Salmons/Cisco are average at SF, above average at OG
4) Ron is Top 20% this year at SF
5) Kenny is Top 30% at PF
6) Brad is below average at C, but not awful like last year

So..so far, so average. Just looking at the above, if everybody just plays major minutes at their natural positions we should be right around average on the glass with that crew. Not good. But mediocre (story of our franchise anymore).

BUT:
Reef is pathetic for a backup center (bottom 25%)
Corliss is pathetic for a backup PF ( bottom 20%)

Which is hardly surprising given that Reef is NOT a center, and Corliss is NOT a PF. Smallballing, our old nemesis, only Muss plays our best C rebounder and best PF rebounder far less than Rick did.


Remedy:
The numbers say that if you played this rotation:

C- Brad 35+mpg (below average))
PF- Kenny 35+mpg (above average)
SF- Ron 35+mpg (good)
OG- Kevin 35+mpg (average)
PG- Mike 35+mpg (average)

SF- Salmons (average)
OG- Cisco (above average)
PG- Price (above average) (limited minutes, but likely)
PF- Williams (good) (limited minutes, but likely)
C- ? (Williams I guess)

that you would be an average rebounding team. Not sure if the numbers tell the whole story (i.e. our pace somewhat inflates our individual numbers -- we are somewhat worse than the numebrs themselves appear), but that's what they say.

Nice analysis. But I think you need to place some blame here as well:

Whle we all would like to see Williams getting the minutes that Corliss and SAR are getting, those are two veterans and leaders, and I wouldn't expect a first-year coach with the job on the line to bench them for a walk-on 10-day contract undrafted rookie, however good at rebounding he is.

Muss isn't blameless, but if we're talking about rebounding here, I still can't get over Geoff's "we'll get better as a team" after he signed Salmons and let Bonzi go.

 

[LPKingsFan]

According to 82games.com, here are the best rebound five man units, in order:

1. Salmons/Garcia/Artest/Corliss/SAR
2. Bibby/Salmons/Artest/Thomas/SAR
3. Bibby/Martin/Artest/Corliss/Miller
3. Bibby/Martin/Salmons/Thomas/Miller
5. Bibby/Martin/Salmons/Thomas/SAR
5. Bibby/Martin/Artest/Corliss/SAR

I have no idea what this means. 82games.com

Also according to 82games.com:

SAR and KT have an average Roland rating of -6.15

That has to be one of the worst PF rotations in the league.

 

[fnordius]

Nice analysis. But I think you need to place some blame here as well:

Whle we all would like to see Williams getting the minutes that Corliss and SAR are getting, those are two veterans and leaders, and I wouldn't expect a first-year coach with the job on the line to bench them for a walk-on 10-day contract undrafted rookie, however good at rebounding he is.

Muss isn't blameless, but if we're talking about rebounding here, I still can't get over Geoff's "we'll get better as a team" after he signed Salmons and let Bonzi go.

Two sides of the same coin. Corliss stinks relative to PFs in general, because he's a SF being played in the wrong slot. SAR isn't a C, he's a F, so same story there. If you judged them by their natural positions, they'd be doing fine. Muss may not want to risk his career on Justin, but Justin's figures are starting to look better than Muss' career prospects, so he may have nothing to lose.

But yeah, there's plenty of blame to go around.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Two sides of the same coin. Corliss stinks relative to PFs in general, because he's a SF being played in the wrong slot. SAR isn't a C, he's a F, so same story there. If you judged them by their natural positions, they'd be doing fine. Muss may not want to risk his career on Justin, but Justin's figures are starting to look better than Muss' career prospects, so he may have nothing to lose.

But yeah, there's plenty of blame to go around.

We don't have a backup C on the roster.

 

[Bricklayer]

Two sides of the same coin. Corliss stinks relative to PFs in general, because he's a SF being played in the wrong slot. SAR isn't a C, he's a F, so same story there. If you judged them by their natural positions, they'd be doing fine.

Corliss as a SF = yeah. But Reef is only about 32nd percentile as a PF too (105th of 157 or so).

If we want to cll a spade a spade and say they are both postup SFs forced to swing upward because of lack of footspeed, sure.

 

[BMiller52]

That's because, apparently, Brick has managed to someone alter his mod duties to include the ability to rip a hole in the time/space continuum, and he's posting all of this tomorrow.

Either that, or we've all gained the ability to see into the future.

In which case, I will feel hugely ripped off if it only applies to message boards.

Yeah this is pretty odd...

 

[fnordius]

Corliss as a SF = yeah. But Reef is only about 32nd percentile as a PF too (105th of 157 or so).

If we want to cll a spade a spade and say they are both postup SFs forced to swing upward because of lack of footspeed, sure.

Yeah. Or one could say that the difference between a 32% PF and a pretty respectable PF is only a rebound or two per 48 minutes, since those things tend to follow a bell curve. Follow whatever statistical route seems most credible and most useful.

 

[Bricklayer]

So upon semi-request from another thread (by a KT fan obviously) I decided to crunch the rebounding numbers for our team of board monsters once again. As usual, the way to do this is to normalize to rebounds/per 48 min. As it got kind of involved, figured a separate thread was in order:


Thomas 23.4min 6.3reb 12.9reb/48 (05/06: 12.9; Career: 12.0) NBA Rank: 45 of 157 PF (71.3%) PF
Miller 28.8min 6.7reb 11.2reb/48 (05/06: 10.1; Career: 12.5) NBA Rank: 68 of 119 (42.9%) C
Reef 25.3min 5.1reb 9.7reb/48 (05/06: 8.8; Career: 10.3) NBA Rank: 91 of 119(23.5%) C
Artest 37.0min 6.7reb 8.7reb/48 (05/06: 6.2; Career: 7.0) NBA Rank: 19 of 100 (81.0%) SF
Corliss 19.0min 3.1reb 7.8reb/48 (05/06: 8.8; Career: 8.2) NBA Rank: 133 of 157 (15.3%) PF
Salmons 27.3min 3.7reb 6.5reb/48 (05/06: 5.2; Career: 5.8) NBA Rank: 54 of 100 (46.0%) SF
Cisco 15.4min 2.0reb 6.2reb/48 (05/06: 6.9; Career: 6.4) NBA Rank: 53 of 146 (63.7%) OG
Martin 35.7min 4.2reb 5.6reb/48 (05/06: 6.5; Career: 6.1) NBA Rank: 74 of 146 (49.3%) OG
Bibby 35.1min 3.2reb 4.4reb/48 (05/06: 3.6; Career: 4.3) NBA Rank: 37 of 69 (46.4%) PG

----------Below this line statistically dubious--------------------------------------
Price 9.6min 1.1reb 5.7reb/48 (05/06: 4.8; Career: 5.4) NBA Rank: 70 of 146 OG
Douby 6.5min 0.7reb 5.2reb/48 ----------------------- NBA Rank: 93 of 146 OG
-------------------------Below this line REALLY statistically dubious---------------------------------
Williams 6.2min 2.5reb 19.4reb/48 ---------------------- NBA Rank: 3 of 157 PF
Taylor 8.6min 2.3reb 12.8reb/48 (05/06: 9.0; Career: 8.8) NBA Rank: 44 of 157 PF
Hart 7.7min 1.2reb 7.5reb.48 (05/06: 4.3; Career: 5.3) NBA Rank: 4 of 69 PG
Potapenko 4.5min 0.5reb 5.3reb/48 (05/06: 8.5; Career: 11.5) NBA Rank: 117 of 119 C


Analysis:

If I told you that Brad, Reef, Ron and Mike were all rebounding better than last year, and that KT was rebounding the same, you would think that we should be doing at least as well as last year right? Only Kevin and Cisco have declined, but that of course doubly hurts since they are taking the place of the guy who covered up these warts last year with the freakish OG rebounding (Bonzi).

So Who Is To Blame?:

and most of all:

(do not forget Geoff)


Fact is that looking at the above numbers for our core players (ignoring the speculative limited minutes guys):
1) Mike is largely average at PG, slighty below
2) Kevin is average at OG
3) Salmons/Cisco are average at SF, above average at OG
4) Ron is Top 20% this year at SF
5) Kenny is Top 30% at PF
6) Brad is below average at C, but not awful like last year

So..so far, so average. Just looking at the above, if everybody just plays major minutes at their natural positions we should be right around average on the glass with that crew. Not good. But mediocre (story of our franchise anymore).

BUT:
Reef is pathetic for a backup center (bottom 25%)
Corliss is pathetic for a backup PF ( bottom 20%)

Which is hardly surprising given that Reef is NOT a center, and Corliss is NOT a PF. Smallballing, our old nemesis, only Muss plays our best C rebounder (Miller) and best PF rebounder (Thomas) far less than Rick did.


Remedy:
The numbers say that if you played this rotation:

C- Brad 35+mpg (below average))
PF- Kenny 35+mpg (above average)
SF- Ron 35+mpg (good)
OG- Kevin 35+mpg (average)
PG- Mike 35+mpg (average)

SF- Salmons (average)
OG- Cisco (above average)
PG- Price (above average) (limited minutes, but likely)
PF- Williams (good) (limited minutes, but likely)
C- ? (Williams I guess)

that you would be an average rebounding team. Not sure if the numbers tell the whole story (i.e. our pace somewhat inflates our individual numbers -- we are somewhat worse than the numebrs themselves appear), but that's what they say.