Reality is upon us and it sucks....Bibbs and Ron Ron staying?

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
#1
Reality can raise its ugly head at any time. We KingsFans have been afraid that we may be looking it straight in the eye right now. What if both Bibbs and Ron Ron are here for training camp? If they are they are the starters at PG and SF.

But where in the East could or should Bibby go? Who needs him to get to the next level? Who among the playoff group could our Bibbs take to the conference or NBA finals? The one name that continually pops up is the Cavs. The Heat are a 2nd possibility here as Bibbs, Wade and Shaq would be a scary situation in the weak east. But what do the Cavs have to offset the $13.5M salary this year and $14.5M next year that Bibbs gets? Or the Heat for that matter? Not much so third team deals are needed.

Gooden has always been the main trade piece for a Cavs-Kings deal but he only makes $6.5M. And since both teams are over the salary cap the 125% CBA rule is invoked for any trade between them. There is Damon Jones or ..... or ...... hmmmm.... ahhh. Arghh! See what I mean? Third team city for sure. But who? And Why would Petrie want them? Gotta look at this from the other teams perspective. If the Cavs get Bibby they go to NBA finals again IMHO. But who in addition to Gooden? And doesn't he play the same position as SAR, KT, Williams and Watkins?

The reality is Bibbs will make $13.5M/$14.5M the next two years. Another reality is that Ron Ron is our best defender, the only one who can take out or restrict the other teams major player-scorer.

With the increase in scoring potential the Kings now have in two new bigs, Hawes and Moore, someone has to get them the ball and KMart will be 20+ pts/gm as well. If Bibbs is gone, whose gonna set him up with dish outs? or pick and rolls with the scoring bigs?

Pooh Bear, Shakur and Price have done that role the last couple of years in the summer league and Price got much better playing time last year backing up Bibbs. Cisco played PG for 2 games this summer and Douby was given a shot as well. They aren't the solution. But who among that lot is ready to be an NBA starting PG? Ouch. If forced to make a choice I'd say Shakur. He has a full 4 years of college ball under his belt and it was for the Dean of PG University, Lute Olsen.

Like it or not, reality for the moment sucks. Can the Kings get back into the middle of the playoff mix this year with Bibbs/KMart/RonRon/SAR/Miller? Big NO there. Is Watkins for SAR and Mikki for Brad any better? Hard to say but at least they can run a bit better as can Hawes who will be hard pressed to get any significant minutes this year. What Kings really need is rebounding. Thats where Watkins-Moore-Williams can help. But do they translate the Kings to playoff bound vs. playoff bubble? Not likely without a major ball handler-distributor.

That then leads to the next question. Is Bibby what the Kings really need now that they are in a rebuilding mode? I don't think so. They need new blood and a new leader and a new attitude. The old guard may not play that tune very well. And if Coach Theus gets them into a run and gun mode, they need really good ball handlers and passers. That old group really doesn't have any of those Miller notwithstanding.

So dam if we do and dam if we don't when it comes to Bibbs. But the Kings have to try a new direction for the 4 and 5 spot for sure and need some scoring from those positions. Like I said, reality is ugly and right now it sucks.
 
#3
Well, I have no problem with keeping Artest...He's a great player who we'd get garbage in return for...Also, he's only an opt out away from being an expiring contract.

Bibby, I would have liked to see moved...But....We're stuck with him next season, the season after...He's a talented (big) expiring contract and a MAJOR trade piece.

KT, SAR, and Miller are guys I'd rather see moved then Artest or Bibby, but that probably isnt going to happen either...Sigh.

This offseason might suck...But I'm still gonna be patient and optimistic for summer of '08
 
#4
If it does stay this way we can really answer the question was is the system/coach or was it the players? Hopefully we at the very least have a coach that at least knows how to run plays and call timeouts. We did make ONE major change (coach) so hopefully that will count for something.
 
#5
bibby and ron stays. so what. our front court needed to get better, and it did. slightly. williams is getting better, moore is a better rebounder/shotblocker than thomas, and spencer has a nice post game. we have a new coach. overall i am pleased with the moves that we made; i would say a 6 1/2 on a scale of 1-10. lets see what happens the 1st half of the season. AND GET RID OF THOSE FREAKIN WOMENS UNIFORMS
 
#6
If neither Bibby nor Artest get traded them I'm done. If that sounds horrible I don't care, I have my limits. If this team thinks the same rebuilding on the fly strategy and waiting for another Chris Webber trade is a realistic strategy then they have no business having success in this league. There is no reason for me to put any energy into a team that is so dedicated to being mediocre and doesn't get proactive about anything. If all they want is to just stay afloat with lameass .500 records and 8th seeds, fine whatever.
 
#10
people just need to accept that we arent going to be real playoff contenders for the next couple years. even if we do make it, we arent likely to do much if anything in them. Trading Bibby doesnt really matter imo, because we arent going to be signing any FA's with the money we save, and we still have KT/SAR/Miller on the books. So until these guys are off the books, getting rid of bibby wont really do much.

Plus the trade offers for Bibby and Artest have mostly been laughable trades, that I would never never accept. The only one I would have been willing to accept was Gooden and Gibson for Bibby and that isnt going to happen, so I would just rather keep them.
 
#11
There hasn't been any good for a while so take the bad with the bad :/

They won't even use the word rebuild, I don't see them as committed to a rebuild to be honest.

As long as they stay afloat they think the fans will keep on showing up and they are probably right.

We're most likely stuck with both Artest and Bibby until their contracts expire...that goes for the bigs as well....very sad.
 
#12
If neither Bibby nor Artest get traded them I'm done. If that sounds horrible I don't care, I have my limits. If this team thinks the same rebuilding on the fly strategy and waiting for another Chris Webber trade is a realistic strategy then they have no business having success in this league. There is no reason for me to put any energy into a team that is so dedicated to being mediocre and doesn't get proactive about anything. If all they want is to just stay afloat with lameass .500 records and 8th seeds, fine whatever.

Hypothetically speaking would you want back in if the Kings make no further changes, however:

-they are a fun team to watch with a lot of hustle
-they start winning some games
-Bibby starts looking Bibbilicious
-Artest becomes the defensive beast of the league again
-Brad Miller starts leading the team in assists and starts hitting the 18 footers with stunning accuracy
-K9 starts grabbing 10-15 boards per game (but still does not smile)
-K9 learns how to convert wide open lay-ups (but again, still does not smile)
-Kmart makes his first All-Star team

Not saying it will happen and not being critical of you. I am just asking, would you want back in?
 
#13
if they both stay then we'll see how much a coach really matters, having almost the same team.

this might get shot down, but we saw some good combos on the floor towards the end of the year ( bmiller/jwill comes to mind ) and maybe theus plays the guys who deserve it and gives us the best chance to win rather than play the guys with the bigger contracts, and we might even sneek in as a 8 seed, and to mee 8th is better than no playoffs at all, seeing how there is no way we could get a top 5 pick anyways.
 
#14
If neither Bibby nor Artest get traded them I'm done. If that sounds horrible I don't care, I have my limits. If this team thinks the same rebuilding on the fly strategy and waiting for another Chris Webber trade is a realistic strategy then they have no business having success in this league. There is no reason for me to put any energy into a team that is so dedicated to being mediocre and doesn't get proactive about anything. If all they want is to just stay afloat with lameass .500 records and 8th seeds, fine whatever.

See ya.

I don't think Geoff's waiting for another CWebb trade. Everyone wants him to trade Mike/Ron for expirings/picks/young guys but with their trade value so low HE CAN'T DO THAT. They should both opt out next year anyway giving us some cap room. So he's banking on the fact that they'll opt out or their trade values will go up.
 
#16
Hypothetically speaking would you want back in if the Kings make no further changes, however:

-they are a fun team to watch with a lot of hustle
-they start winning some games
-Bibby starts looking Bibbilicious
-Artest becomes the defensive beast of the league again
-Brad Miller starts leading the team in assists and starts hitting the 18 footers with stunning accuracy
-K9 starts grabbing 10-15 boards per game (but still does not smile)
-K9 learns how to convert wide open lay-ups (but again, still does not smile)
-Kmart makes his first All-Star team

Not saying it will happen and not being critical of you. I am just asking, would you want back in?

I bolded the unlikely parts... the other stuff I could see happening for sure though:D
 
#17
Don't get your hopes up. It sounds like you have them up a little too high. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad.
I definitely understand that POV, but I'm not the kind of fan where I'm unconditionally loyal to the front of the jersey. The only thing I ask is that they take the proper and realistic course of action to getting back into contention and I don't think what they're currently doing, is that. They may change that and I may jump back on but I don't see the point in going through an identical season as last and watch them make the same stagnant decisions. I don't think I ask too much, I just ask them to do things the right way, I'm not asking them to get into the second round of the playoffs here or anything. Maybe they're worried about losing the fan base or something but if kings fans can last this long they can certainly last a full rebuild mode that this team desperately needs. I guess I'm in a wait and see mode, but I'm pretty close to being on my last straw here.
 
#18
I definitely understand that POV, but I'm not the kind of fan where I'm unconditionally loyal to the front of the jersey. The only thing I ask is that they take the proper and realistic course of action to getting back into contention and I don't think what they're currently doing, is that. They may change that and I may jump back on but I don't see the point in going through an identical season as last and watch them make the same stagnant decisions. I don't think I ask too much, I just ask them to do things the right way, I'm not asking them to get into the second round of the playoffs here or anything. Maybe they're worried about losing the fan base or something but if kings fans can last this long they can certainly last a full rebuild mode that this team desperately needs. I guess I'm in a wait and see mode, but I'm pretty close to being on my last straw here.

Atleast wait and see how the season goes IMO.
 
#19
Hypothetically speaking would you want back in if the Kings make no further changes, however:

-they are a fun team to watch with a lot of hustle
-they start winning some games
-Bibby starts looking Bibbilicious
-Artest becomes the defensive beast of the league again
-Brad Miller starts leading the team in assists and starts hitting the 18 footers with stunning accuracy
-K9 starts grabbing 10-15 boards per game (but still does not smile)
-K9 learns how to convert wide open lay-ups (but again, still does not smile)
-Kmart makes his first All-Star team

Not saying it will happen and not being critical of you. I am just asking, would you want back in?
If I thought it wasn't a fluke and they were actually capable of contending maybe, but it's really more about doing what's best for the long term and this team isn't properly rebuilding, if that's even what they're doing. Even if everything goes right I don't think this team really has that very high of a ceiling.
 
#20
See ya.

I don't think Geoff's waiting for another CWebb trade. Everyone wants him to trade Mike/Ron for expirings/picks/young guys but with their trade value so low HE CAN'T DO THAT. They should both opt out next year anyway giving us some cap room. So he's banking on the fact that they'll opt out or their trade values will go up.
Well as long as they can send them off for expirings and some nice extra pieces here and there then I'm totally satisfied. The greater point being that there is no point in holding onto them since it's very unlikely their trade value greatly improves just like it was last offseason (and it didn't). Why take the chance on them opting out or not? I'd rather just trade them for expirings maybe get a decent draft pick in there somewhere and then free up minutes to develop the young players and then be in position to draft pretty high next year, that's how you rebuild quickly. Why wait? There isn't going to be a perfect time to let go of Artest and Bibby, why wait?
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
#21
There's somebody around here with a Fire Petrie motto...could be headed that way. Geoff...well, has done very little for a good long while now. And more than just doing very little in the moves he makes, he has done very little due to apparently having a complete lack of vision/guts. I warned at the beginning of this offseason that there was the possibility that Geoff would back off and cower in the corner pooping his diapers rather than do anything "aggressive" as he claimed. Wasn't sure of it -- he seemed to be hinting at something else in his bizarro interviews. But the possibility seemed clear of passivity, inaction, "evaluation" for the millionth time. It has to be remembered again that Geoff Petrie himself is responsible for the garbage on the floor -- he misevaulated all those players, made numerous bad moves to get us here to this point, so him either consciously or unconsciously refusing to admit it, still sticking to his intial misevaluations cannot be considered utterly shooking. And that's the way we seem to be headed.

A couple of months more now of lassitude and perhaps just simply getting too old/comfortable/tired/lazy, and there will be a good argument for canning him. We won't of course. The owners are bigger fools than he is, and if he was actually fired I shudder to think of the amateurish yesman that would be installed in his place by the Brothers Shallow. But there will be a solid argument. His glory days are long past now, and assuming no change in course, again, its hard to imagine a more inept handling of a rebuild, nor a more detached disregard for the fanbase. There comes a point when a fresh voice, with a fresh eye, and a fresh vision (or any vision at all) could be a real step forward.

I'm giving him those two months -- as a man with an almost pathologic fear of the spotligh the could always be, well, lying. Posturing in the papers, trying to work in the background. Could be. But if nothing happens I've already got the thread I'm going to start the day before training camp opens mapped out in my mind. Think the title is going to be "Geoff Petrie, Your Hen Has Oodled". :p
 
Last edited:
#23
Given our players and cap situation what could GP really do that would make a big difference?

I certainly don't want to see him trade away Bibby or Artest to take back bad contracts. I wouldn't mind seeing a number a team of young prospects with a few vets, I'm not sure how to get there unless contracts are bought out.

I'm not defending him, it's a real question. Could a new GM solve our problems any better than GP
 
#24
In response to those saying that folks who are unhappy need to accept that we're rebuilding, are going to suck for the next few years, etc...

We aren't rebuilding, and at the rate we're going, we're going to suck for the next decade. The problem is that no moves = horrid contracts for years and years and years and all the while, potential young talent is NOT being developed and we are NOT rebuilding.

If we're going to sit around and wait for contracts to expire and let our young guys rot on the bench (or waste their potential ENTIRELY due to age), all the while signing aging vets to a 5-6 million per year/3 year MLE every offseason... we're ****ed for a very long time.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#25
Given our players and cap situation what could GP really do that would make a big difference?

I certainly don't want to see him trade away Bibby or Artest to take back bad contracts. I wouldn't mind seeing a number a team of young prospects with a few vets, I'm not sure how to get there unless contracts are bought out.

I'm not defending him, it's a real question. Could a new GM solve our problems any better than GP
Well a few ideas pop up. First don't take on any new contracts taht run over 2 years. Sure trading ANY of our players will be tough, but doable. If we give GP the benifit of the doubt that he is trying to move players but no one wnats what we have to offer then before camp you buy out Kenny to make room for some youth.

I also suspect that moving SAR could be in the works once he has played a few games to prove the knee is not an issue. To be honest the only contract I see as just unmovable is Brad.

At this point I'd even prefer seeing trades I did NOT like to no trades at all.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
#26
At this point I'd even prefer seeing trades I did NOT like to no trades at all.

At this point I would settle for him just shutting up and returning to true reticence rather than popping up every few days to announce that yet another one of our problem players/contracts isn't going anywhere. At least when there is dead silence you can convince yourself that he's actually doing something more than working on his golf game this summer.
 
#27
At this point I'm preparing myself for at least a few years of frustration (if things don't change maybe even more). Artest and Bibby are probably our most tradable peices (maybe Kevin Martin too but I think we wanna keep him) and they don't have all that much value right now. Losing them for nothing would/will hurt so my hope is that because the market for them is pretty poor right now GP has decided not to trade them right now, and hope they will play better this year and improve that value.

Either way, I'm prepared for things to get worse before they get better simply because I don't see the improvement or progression right now. I became a Kings fan in the mid 80s and things weren't all that great then. I figure I can handle it again if thats what it comes too. Hope it doesn't though.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#28
Well as long as they can send them off for expirings and some nice extra pieces here and there then I'm totally satisfied. The greater point being that there is no point in holding onto them since it's very unlikely their trade value greatly improves just like it was last offseason (and it didn't). Why take the chance on them opting out or not? I'd rather just trade them for expirings maybe get a decent draft pick in there somewhere and then free up minutes to develop the young players and then be in position to draft pretty high next year, that's how you rebuild quickly. Why wait? There isn't going to be a perfect time to let go of Artest and Bibby, why wait?
Well said. Basically, what is happening here is Petrie is waiting, so we are waiting. He's already said he's not making the phone calls to trade Bibby (and apparently not Artest); he's waiting for the date to call him. He obvioulsy doesn't weigh heavily the goal of rebuilding; otherwise, he would have made a deal by now. It's not that difficult: How difficult is an auction to the highest bidder? He's looking for the perfect deal where no one can question that he made a good deal, regardless of whether you are for rebuilding like we are, or desperately want the 8th playoff spot. I think he wants the 8th playoff spot AND he wants to rebuild with the hope of eventually building a championship team (GOOD LUCK TO THAT!) But there are obvious risks to this strategy:

1) Artest could go ballistic again, leaving ZERO value on the table and damaging the entire organization

2) The Bibby-Artest feud could rekindle, with even more dire consequences

3) The logjam at the PF/C position could even further increase the conflict within the team. SAR - KT cubed.

4) All of the above could undermine Theus's authority on the team

5) Every vet player is getting that much older: How much does SAR, Miki, and Miller have in the tank? SAR is obviously on the downhill. Every day that goes by his market value gets less.

6) Every mediocre veteran on the team is potentially someone who takes pt away from the young guys development. Not exactly what I have in mind when I think of rebuilding.

7) If he does nothing, the entire org looks ridiculous, talking of rebuilding on the one hand, and getting Miki Moore on the other. Maybe it's not tangible, but it's real.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#29
I'm sorry but I cannot help but actually be somewhat amused by the ongoing "reality sucks" stuff. No one said this whole time of trying to get out of the end of the bad contracts, trades that hobbled us, etc. was going to be easy.

EDIT: I just re-read the OP and I apologize to CruzDude. I read it quickly and didn't catch the whole gist. Mea cupla. :eek:

And the idea that Petrie is going to be fired by the Maloofs for not giving away Bibby and/or Artest really doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me.

Okay, that's my two cents on the topic at hand.

----------------------------------------------

Now, with my MODERATOR hat on, I'm going to just interject a reminder that regardless of how you stand on this issue - or anything else we debate, argue, discuss, etc. - you are bound to follow the rules of the forum. If I or any of the other moderators think you've stepped over the line, your posts are going to be deleted. Keep it civil, folks, please?
 
Last edited:
#30
bibby and ron stays. so what. our front court needed to get better, and it did. slightly. williams is getting better, moore is a better rebounder/shotblocker than thomas, and spencer has a nice post game. we have a new coach. overall i am pleased with the moves that we made; i would say a 6 1/2 on a scale of 1-10. lets see what happens the 1st half of the season. AND GET RID OF THOSE FREAKIN WOMENS UNIFORMS

I Totally Agree