Re-sign Ike Diogu!
- Thread starter BMiller52
- Start date
See but the thing is, I was excited when we got Diogu before he played a minute for us because I always thought he had a lot of potential. It isn't about one game. I don't expect him to score 32 points per game. I was happy with 12 and 7 in 20 minutes or so. That's a productive player. That's someone other teams have to guard in the post. And everything he's done in the NBA so far, regardless of what happened in tonight's game, suggests that 12 and 7 with a good fg% in 20 minutes a night is very possible. I don't think you plug him in to the starting lineup and expect 20 and 10 nightly, but we already have Thompson. All we need is 20 productive minutes off the bench and another rotation role has been filled. If you can fill that role with a 25 year old player for 2-3 million a year, even better.
This is why I was mad at Natt for not playing the guy when he first got here. How can you possibly know what a guy can do if he never gets to play?
ElRey
Starter
He was really impressive tonight... He was taking it to PREMIERE defenders in Nene, Anderson, and Martin. shows that he can be very good in the right situation.
He has always been behind established players though. He has never gotten a real chance. And he did look pretty decent for a while in Indiana. I'm not saying sign him to a 5 year 25 million dollars contract like we did Beno, I'm saying sign him to a 2-3 mill 2 or 3 year contract. We need roster filler anyway. To be honest Beno wouldn't have been a bad signing if we had gotten him for the 2-3 year 2-3 mill per contract. But we overpaid him because we were desperate. But Ike can easily be a 9/7, 12/5 type of guy.
HighTopKicks
Bench
If I read the Coon's CBA FAQ correctly, as a 1st round draft choice in the 4th year of his rookie contract, the Kings are required to make a Qualifying Offer by June 30th or Ike becomes an UFA. Also, because he is coming off the 4th yr of his rookie contract, the Qualifying Offer is set at 30% more than his 4th year contract. So, to retain Ike for at least 1 year, the Kings have to make an offer of approx $3.9M or lose the right to match any offer sheets he receives. After the Qualifying Offer is made the Kings can renegotiate a longer contract, but the Qualifying Offer must be made.
Then Ike can accept the offer and play for 1 yr, at which time he becomes an UFA. He can sign an offer sheet from another team, at which time the Kings have the right to retain him by matching the offer.
It's unlikely that the Kings would pay Ike $4M if we draft Griffin. It's just too much for a backup PF when we would have so many players that could play that position. (K9, Donte, Noc, Spencer, JT) Now, if we end up drafting Rubio, Ike is probably better than anyone we could draft with the Houston pick. But, it would only be for 1 yr. & we would retain his Bird rights.
At some point we're going to have to sign 2 more bigs, because Natt's small ball just isn't cutting it.
This is all correct. I think the assumption is that Diogu isn't going to sniff $4M on the free agent market and that if we were to try to retain him, we'd refuse to make a qualifying offer and let him become unrestricted, then take our chances at landing him between $1-2M for a year. With the salary cap moving downward and the economy still threatening, the guess is that a player like Ike isn't going to command much on the open market. $4M for Diogu seems steep, even if we don't draft Griffin.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Your correct. We would have to make a qualifiing offer or lose our rights to him, making him an unrestricted free agent. The problem with the Qualifing offer is that its probably more than he can get on the open market, and it also puts a 8.7 mil cap hold on us for his rights. Meaning whatever cap space we would have had is gone until his situation is resolved.
Peter_Gibbons
Starter
Yes, Ike Diogu should deserve a new contract considering its not too much or too long. I watched him play against the clippers and he actually had some skills. Works hard and was actually the best big man on our team for that game.
TheFifthMookie
Bench
Aaaargh.
We know Ike's not going to make us a winner.
In my mind, the rebuilding goal is to become a contender, and that means being over .500 and in the playoffs. With that in mind, we should focus our signings ONLY on players that will make a long term difference. That means the team will be a little worse a little longer, but will create the space for the right guys to come in and make a serious difference later.
We know Ike's not going to make us a winner.
In my mind, the rebuilding goal is to become a contender, and that means being over .500 and in the playoffs. With that in mind, we should focus our signings ONLY on players that will make a long term difference. That means the team will be a little worse a little longer, but will create the space for the right guys to come in and make a serious difference later.
HighTopKicks
Bench
If we don't get Griffin were going to need another big. If we go PG with the 1st pick, that leaves the Houston pick or FA. There's probably no big around the Houston pick better the Ike, and a FA will cost more. If you let him go to UFA, your probably going to have to make a offer for multi years like say $5M over 2 yrs.
So, the QA is actually a good price if he doen't work out. ( $3.9M vs $5M ) If he does work out, he's going to cost that much anyways. Plus, he could be a valueable trade piece at the 2009 trade deadline. Lastly, we're paying for the advantage of having a choice of whether to keep him or not. If you would have paid him $2-3M anyways, the amount your actually overpaying him is 2% of the team salary. So, penny wise pound foolish as they say.
Didn't he give up a career high to Pharaoh in that game?
One question is what kind of contract Diogu can get as an unrestricted free agent in this market. $3.9M for one year is probably more than he can get. $5M over two years may be stretching it as well - $2M with a $2.5 team option for the second year seems like a decent deal for a guy who's basically a scrub. The qualifying offer could easily be double his market value, so I don't really see any pound-foolish there.
The other problem is that is we don't renounce him, his cap hold will destroy our cap space. If we decide to keep Diogu, Diogu is what we get this offseason. At that point, we might as well keep McCants, too, because we'd have no cap space to sign anybody else.
If we have the intention of holding on to Diogu, I'd much rather get him as cheap as we can on the UFA market (and risk not getting him) than blow cap space on him. And that probably would hold true even if we had no other players targeted in the offseason.
HighTopKicks
Bench
Yours is the flip side of my arguement. And, a more likely senario. My only question, is if we don't resign Ike, who do we get to fill the backup PF role and how much is it going to cost us?
Everytime JT or Hawes sat and Natt went small ball the Kings floundered. If Rubio & Wall enter the draft the odds are in favor of us getting one of them with our #1 pick. So, do you know of any UFA's or RFA's PF that can provide 30mpg quality time that we can get for under $3M?
Well, one guy who could play 30 quality minutes at the PF would be Blake Griffin. We really do have to see how the draft shakes out before we can immediately assume we need to fill significant minutes at PF.
Even if we don't get Griffin, a #3 big may not be a huge priority, especially as Noc can fill in there (and yes, I know you didn't like it when we went small...on the other hand, we're not going to be winning the championship next year so being suboptimal won't kill us). I'd imagine we're fairly likely to sign 1-2 emergency-level big men (Booth types) but unless Nocioni finds his way out of town (or some other circumstance force him to the SF full time) there probably won't be "rotation-type" minutes for our #3 big. We should pay accordingly. If we can get Diogu on the cheap, more power to us. But the name of the guy we sign may not really matter in the end. He's "#3 Big: DNP-CD".
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
We need a third big. But with Spencer's versatility that third big, given our interior defense/rebounding woes, could and probably should be a big center, not a stubby PF. Have Spencer swing swing to PF for the backup minutes, occasionally spot in Noc for matchups.
beb0p
Starter
On the question of the 3rd big, I want him off the team as much as you guys, but Kenny Thomas is still here and there's nothing wrong with having him as the primary backup. There's the question of whether he accepts a backup role, but at this point in his career, I think even he realizes a backup role is the best he can get. Plus, the best way to increase his trade value is to play him. The only thing better than an expiring is an expiring who can still play.
For the little money that the Kings are willing to spend, you'll be hard pressed to find a big man better than KT in the open market. Marcin Gortat is not coming. Adonal Foyle (assuming he is healthy) will sign with a contender. What big guy comes to the worst team in the league and be a backup? Probably the likes of Jake Voskuhl. I'd rather have KT earn his paycheck.
As for Diogu, he's good as gone. Despite what many fans think about our GM, the truth is Petrie doesn't like those good-offense/no-defense big man, never has. GP likes scrappy physical bigs, so even though I think Diogu is talented; scrappy and physical aren't his things.
For the little money that the Kings are willing to spend, you'll be hard pressed to find a big man better than KT in the open market. Marcin Gortat is not coming. Adonal Foyle (assuming he is healthy) will sign with a contender. What big guy comes to the worst team in the league and be a backup? Probably the likes of Jake Voskuhl. I'd rather have KT earn his paycheck.
As for Diogu, he's good as gone. Despite what many fans think about our GM, the truth is Petrie doesn't like those good-offense/no-defense big man, never has. GP likes scrappy physical bigs, so even though I think Diogu is talented; scrappy and physical aren't his things.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Where did this paragraph come from.
GP -- Huh? All evidence to the contrary?
and
Diogu? He's VERY physical, if anything its his calling card. Physical post game. He's also short and can't jump, making him mediocre on the glass and making it a stuggle on defense.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
If we just go with your orginal idea of signing Hedo then there's no need for Ike. Hedo can play PF and SF. He's better suited for the SF position, but at PF, he at least has the size for the position, which Noc doesn't.
beb0p
Starter
That's silly. Dudley, Grant, Michael Smith, Mikki, KT, Pollard, Skinner, Keon, Brickowski and others; all evidence points to GP's preference - that of blue collar guys.
Where I think the confusion creeps in, is that Petrie like skill - but in guards and wings. For big men, he has always preferred brawl over skill. GP signed one, count 'em one, skilled big man with minimal defense in GP's career - SAR. GP has drafted one, count 'em one, skilled big man - Hawes. The rest are guys who bang and scrap. A few are bangy and scrappy guys with skill (like JT), but the one underlying commonality of the big men passed through Sac and Por is not offense.
As for Diogu, if you can't tell the difference between a Pollard type of physicality and Diogu's, then I guess that explains a lot.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Wow..just...wow. I thnk you are all spun around on this one.
1) first, a little note of reclassification -- neither Keon nor Mikki were remotely scrappers or bangers.
2) Vlade, Funderburke, Webber, Songaila, BMiller, Shareef, Hawes and a host of lesser lights (Jabari Smith et al) utterly defy your premise. I have just listed by the way almost all of the core big men of the last ten years.
Meanwhile his true "physical scrappers" have all been 2nd round picks (Michael Smith), waiver wire pickups (Pollard), cheap free agents to fill a hole (Ostertag) etc. He's never invested in a major scrapper, just filled out the roster with them, and the only one with any tenure was Pollard as a part of the golden years. Very few of them last more than a single year.
In fact its much easier to explain the bulk of the remaining bigs he's had by their skillset than their alleged scrappiness. KT was a 14ppg scorer before he became anything else, had a nice midrange jumper, and once recorded a triple double for us (he was also acquired for no better reason than that we desperately wanted to find somebody to dump Webber's salary upon), Keon Clark was a 11ppg scorer with a nice little jump shot. he could block shots, whihc was his calling card. But he was a stick and hardly phsycial about it. Mikki Moore's only offense was the midrange jumper (and off the ball movement). He was a hack, but soft as can be. Tony Massenberg specialized on a little turnaroudn form 10feet and turned out ot be far mor ebark tyhan bite at anythign else. Brian Grant played a physical game in the same way Diogu does, but he was also a skilled offensive player in his early years and double figure scorer for us before he bailed. All of those guys could score. They were terribly mediocre players, but the commonality was they could score with the jumper primarily. Only Kenny could rebound.
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HighTopKicks
Bench
WOW.... We went from 'is Ike worth $4M, because he is cheaper any other FA's of his ability, and better than any big available with the Houston pick.... To 'what type of big men does GP like?'. What did we give up or gain by trading for Diogu? If GP, didn't like Ike why bother trading for him to have him on the team for 2 months?
We're going to need a backup center. Hawes' current injury proves that. And, Calvin Booth has played well enough and is reasonably price to fill that need. JT just isn't ready to fill that spot, skill wise. At least, not yet. Spenser is far more valuable at the center than at PF. Plus, even with a heavy regime of weight workouts, Spencer still isn't going to be a force down low next year.
We're going to need a power guy. If Ike can be that guy than he's worth the QO. If he's not going to be that guy do we really want to sign him to a long term contract. And, if we don't do one or the other, do we want to risk the chance of losing a #5 draft pick, to another team just when he's entering his prime? But, of course, all of this is predicated on us taking a PG with our #1, and not getting Griffin or Thabeet.
beb0p
Starter
WHAAOOO??!!
If their calling cards are not to hustle and scrap, what are they? Big-time scorers?
Now, I'm sick of people who don't recognize Divac's contribution. Divac was no push-over, limited by his earthboundness for so', but he was a good defender. Somehow he has acquired an unjust reputation as soft on defense, but if one looks at his game objectively, one will notice that Divac is very long, had great sense of timing, great positioning, and a much better defender than he's been give credit for. And yes, he is physical; in a very cunning way because he banged but he also flopped, but the man is very scrappy, very physical when he has to be, and a good defender. He did as good as job as an center I've seen guarding Shaq. And that's saying a lot.
If you want to paint GP as this offense-obessed defense-be-damned GM, Divac is not it. Leave Divac alone.
As for Songalia, er, is he not scrappy? And physical? I think you may have confused being athletic with being physical. Same with Miller and Thunderburke. Miller, for one, had a reputation as a blue-collar hustling big before he came here. Highlighted by the incident where he got so physical with Shaq that Shaq threw a punch (missed) at him and got suspended. I don't know what happened to Milller in Sac but he doesn't support your theory.
SAR, I've already mentioned as the anormally, you can have him. Hawes too. But did GP really wanted Hawes over Noah?
Which brings us to Webber. Oh sure, GP likes Web so much the minute he lost a step he was shipped out for three bangers and scrappers.
Not true. No GM is ever going to acquired the guys you mentioned above for their offense. None. You don't draft Brain Grant for his offense. You don't sign Keon Clark because he can shoot 10-foot jumpers. You don't sign Mikki Moore because of his high FG%. Those guys are ALL hustle guys. Now, they may not be very effective in their roles but the ARE ALL blue-collar type guys.
For example, just because a shooter like Quincy Douby couldn't hit shots doesn't mean GP drafted him for his defense.
Just because a blue-collar type couldn't improve the Kings' defense doesn't mean GP got that player for his offense.
Using your logic, a big man would have to be completely inept offensively (like a Ben Wallace) to quality as a scrapper. But the fact is, most bangers can do a little bit offensively. Keon, Mikki, Grant, KT, and others are all this type of big men. They can score if necessary but you don't put them on the floor because of that.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
My lord, by the time you have turned Vlade Divac, Darius Songaila, Miki Moore and Keon Clark into scrappy and physical players, I have to agree with you -- Geoff prefers scrappy and physical players. As does every ohter GM in the league. Because every single player in the NBA is hereby scrappy and physical.
And how on Earth you could put togethe that list and then think Ike Diogu not worthy of inclusion is utterly beyond me. He's snap most of those guys in half like toothpicks.
And how on Earth you could put togethe that list and then think Ike Diogu not worthy of inclusion is utterly beyond me. He's snap most of those guys in half like toothpicks.
beb0p
Starter
Ok, can we at least not go down the path of hyperbole?
So can Zach Randolph and Eddy Curry. I'd never say they are scrappy. But I guess maybe this logic is beyond you. That's fine. But leave Divac alone, the man is so underrated and so under-appreciated as it is.
Sac.1989
Starter
The birdman is on the market this summer
steelevt
All-Star
i dont see a problem or letting him become an unrestricted free agent and try to get him cheap. i know you shouldnt really judge based on the last few games of the season but i've always thought ike had potential but just wasnt given the opportunity. i like more what ive seen from him these last few games than what mccants has shown or even nocioni (considering his contract).
vikinginferno
Starter
He has too much talent to let go. I really think we might be kicking ourselves in a couple of years for not resigning him if we do not. I don't think he will become a starter because he just wouldn't match up well, but he could be great off the bench. He isn't as bad of a defender and a rebounder as people say. He actually is a very good rebounder for his size and has a knack to get to the ball. Just DO NOT GO OVERBOARD AND PAY TOO MUCH.
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