Rahim

[Alacron]

how would that be the softest lineup in the nba? and tell me how howard and dampier would be better than our lineup. so dampier a guy that gets posterized and has no offensive game is better than a guy like miller that is crafty, not athletic but crafty, has a nice jumper and a great passer. the team that we had in playoffs this season just give them a full training camp and a chance to practice with each other and this team could be a contender, of course with the addition of rahim or swift.

I think what Brick is trying to say is, in order to mathematically have a chance to win any given game, you must, at least once during the course of the game, do both the following: A) stop the opponent from scoring, and B) grab the ball.
~~

 

[Bricklayer]

how would that be the softest lineup in the nba? and tell me how howard and dampier would be better than our lineup. so dampier a guy that gets posterized and has no offensive game is better than a guy like miller that is crafty, not athletic but crafty, has a nice jumper and a great passer. the team that we had in playoffs this season just give them a full training camp and a chance to practice with each other and this team could be a contender, of course with the addition of rahim or swift.

Soft = do not like contact, do not rebound, do not defend, do not hit the floor, are not clutch, when the intensity rockets upward, when the game gets touhg and physical and the crowd is screaming for blood, who comes to play, and who scurries over to the corner to hide?

And an understanding of that concept of sotness is just NBA basketball 101 -- without it, there is just no way to comprehend who wins and loses in the NBA. Why Robert Horry is a 6x champion, why the Mavs have never won one. Why Dennis Rodman and Big Ben have six rings while Dominique Wilkens and Peja have zero. PPG is almost irrelevant. How do you score them? Do you fight and claw on the glass and on defense? Do you win physical wars? That lineup -- Bibby/rook/Peja/Rahim/Miller scares absolutely no one that is serious about winning in the NBA. If you've been through the wars, if you understand the instensity and toughness required, a soft team adding yet another soft scorer is cause for scorn not fear. Irrelevant to the big boys.

 

[OptimusRhyme]

Soft = do not like contact, do not rebound, do not defend, do not hit the floor, are not clutch, when the intensity rockets upward, when the game gets touhg and physical and the crowd is screaming for blood, who comes to play, and who scurries over to the corner to hide?

And an understanding of that concept of sotness is just NBA basketball 101 -- without it, there is just no way to comprehend who wins and loses in the NBA. Why Robert Horry is a 6x champion, why the Mavs have never won one. Why Dennis Rodman and Big Ben have six rings while Dominique Wilkens and Peja have zero. PPG is almost irrelevant. How do you score them? Do you fight and claw on the glass and on defense? Do you win physical wars? That lineup -- Bibby/rook/Peja/Rahim/Miller scares absolutely no one that is serious about winning in the NBA. If you've been through the wars, if you understand the instensity and toughness required, a soft team adding yet another soft scorer is cause for scorn not fear. Irrelevant to the big boys.

Have to agree with ya there Brick.

 

[Bricklayer]

So putting as happy a face as I can on this possibility, my revised "Step Aside Geoff" offseason plan:


1) go ahead and get Rahim in the sign and trade, so long as it does not involve Mobley (see #2);

2) pull off the Mobley for Nene and Lenard trade, throw in candy if necessary

3) pull off Brad and Peja for KG trade, throw in candy as necessary

4) avoid using Skinner, Bobby, or the two kids if possible in any of the trades. may have to, but try your best.

5) bring back Mo to play with old pal KG

And enter the season with:

C- 6'11" Nene
PF- 7'1" KG
SF- 6'9" Shareef
OG- 6'7" Garcia
PG- 6'1" Bibby

Bench: 6'0" BJax, 6'9" Skinner, 6'4" Lenard, 6'7" Martin, 6'5" Mo, any of Tag, Corliss, Thomas remaining, and any contracts accepted back in return

Now we're talking. Just let me photoshop up some pics of McHale and Kiki and some distressed farm animals and I'll see you in the WCF next year.

 

[D-Mass]

So putting as happy a face as I can on this possibility, my revised "Step Aside Geoff" offseason plan:


1) go ahead and get Rahim in the sign and trade, so long as it does not involve Mobley (see #2);

2) pull off the Mobley for Nene and Lenard trade, throw in candy if necessary

3) pull off Brad and Peja for KG trade, throw in candy as necessary

4) avoid using Skinner, Bobby, or the two kids if possible in any of the trades. may have to, but try your best.

5) bring back Mo to play with old pal KG

And enter the season with:

C- 6'11" Nene
PF- 7'1" KG
SF- 6'9" Shareef
OG- 6'7" Garcia
PG- 6'1" Bibby

Bench: 6'0" BJax, 6'9" Skinner, 6'4" Lenard, 6'7" Martin, 6'5" Mo, any of Tag, Corliss, Thomas remaining, and any contracts accepted back in return

Now we're talking.

Put that in the form of an official memo and get it to the front office. Hopefully they'll get on it right away.

 

[nbrans]

This may be heresey around these parts I don't think it actually makes the Kings all that much better. Don't forget that Peja was a legit MVP candidate in 2003-2004 before having an off-year. So you're giving up him and one of the top 3 or 4 centers in the league for someone who's not even the best power forward in the league, and has never proven that he can take a team to the next level even with a pretty solid supporting cast. KG's a star, but is he as good as two stars combined? I'm not sure.

P.S., for someone so concerned about defense, a Bibby, Garcia, Abdur-Rahim, KG and Nene would be a pretty porous defense. KG plays some defense, Nene plays some defense, but you're getting murdered on the perimeter, especially with Abdur-Rahim at the small forward, which he's not quick enough to play.

 

[Bricklayer]

This may be heresey around these parts I don't think it actually makes the Kings all that much better. Don't forget that Peja was a legit MVP candidate in 2003-2004 before having an off-year. So you're giving up him and one of the top 3 or 4 centers in the league for someone who's not even the best power forward in the league, and has never proven that he can take a team to the next level even with a pretty solid supporting cast. KG's a star, but is he as good as two stars combined? I'm not sure.

Peja as MVP candidate was rather sad, as were the candidates that year. Same performance does not put him Top 10 this year. Lest this needs restating yet again, Peja/KG that year:

24.2pts 6.3rebs 2.1ast 1.3stl 0.2blk
24.2pts 13.9reb 5.0ast 1.5stl 2.2blk (oh, and First Team All Defense and the MVP)

They're not even operating on the same planet. And we don't even want to get into this year.

And Brad's a nice player, but he's a "star" only because we call him a center. 15pts 9rebs is nice, but you know what? Give Nene 38min in my revamped lineup and he can just about equal that and be one of the best centers too. Doesn't take much.

If you don't think we'd be much better with that huge, versatile inside/outside, athletic and skilled frontline...don't know what to say. That's instant contender, and likely the best lineup KG has ever been a part of.

 

[nbrans]

Peja as MVP candidate was rather sad, as were the candidates that year. Same performance does not put him Top 10 this year. Lest this needs restating yet again, Peja/KG that year:

24.2pts 6.3rebs 2.1ast 1.3stl 0.2blk
24.2pts 13.9reb 5.0ast 1.5stl 2.2blk (oh, and First Team All Defense and the MVP)

They're not even operating on the same planet. And we don't even want to get into this year.

And Brad's a nice player, but he's a "star" only because we call him a center. 15pts 9rebs is nice, but you know what? Give Nene 38min in my revamped lineup and he can just about equal that and be one of the best centers too. Doesn't take much.

If you don't think we'd be much better with that huge, versatile inside/outside, athletic and skilled frontline...don't know what to say. That's instant contender, and likely the best lineup KG has ever been a part of.

There's no doubt that KG is better than Peja and better than Miller. The question is if he'd have more of an impact than Peja and Miller combined. It's a decent argument, I'd say no.

KG needs another superstar alongside him to win a championship, he's not the type of Tim Duncan player who can do it just with a strong supporting cast. Plus, Bibby and an out-of-position Abdur-Rahim plus role players isn't that great of a supporting cast.

Think about Webber in his prime. He was probably only slightly less talented and skilled than KG, and look at the team he needed to contend. Christie, Peja, Vlade, Bibby vs. Bibby, Garcia, out-of-position Abdur-Rahim and Nene? Nuh uh.

It's my opinion that the Kings are going to need to win with team basketball and good players at every position. The one superstar model doesn't work, unless you have Tim Duncan.

 

[Bricklayer]

There's no doubt that KG is better than Peja and better than Miller. The question is if he'd have more of an impact than Peja and Miller combined. It's a decent argument, I'd say no.

KG needs another superstar alongside him to win a championship, he's not the type of Tim Duncan player who can do it just with a strong supporting cast. Bibby and an out-of-position Abdur-Rahim plus role players isn't that great of a supporting cast.

Think about Webber in his prime. He was probably only slightly less talented and skilled than KG, and look at the team he needed to contend. Christie, Peja, Vlade, Bibby vs. Bibby, Garcia, out-of-position Abdur-Rahim and Nene? Nuh uh.

It's my opinion that the Kings are going to need to win with team basketball and good players at every position. The one superstar model doesn't work, unless you have Tim Duncan.

1) Rahim is a natural SF. He started his career there, is soft enough that's where he should have stayed.

2) if the trade history of the NBA has shown anything, its that a superstar is worth more than multiple "stars".

3) Bibby is a star. Rahim is a star. Both borderline All-Stars. Nene is anywhere from 12 and 7 (low) to 16 and 9. Bobby is still very good. Mo, Skinner, Martin, Lenard etc. make for a deep bench.

being conservative with people's numbers:

Nene: 35min 15pts 8rebs 3ast 1.5stl 1.2blk
KG: 40min 22pts 13rebs 5ast 1.5stl 1.8blk
Reef: 38min 19pt 7reb 3ast 1.1stl 0.5blk
kids: ???
Bibby: 38min 17pt 4reb 6ast 1.4stl 0.3blk

That's one HELL of a supporting cast. Almost as good as Mike, Peja, Miller AND with last year's MVP thrown in. Big, versatile, multiple post players.

 

[piksi]

1) Rahim is a natural SF. He started his career there, is soft enough that's where he should have stayed.

2) if the trade history of the NBA has shown anything, its that a superstar is worth more than multiple "stars".

3) Bibby is a star. Rahim is a star. Both borderline All-Stars. Nene is anywhere from 12 and 7 (low) to 16 and 9. Bobby is still very good. Mo, Skinner, Martin, Lenard etc. make for a deep bench.

being conservative with people's numbers:

Nene: 35min 15pts 8rebs 3ast 1.5stl 1.2blk
KG: 40min 22pts 13rebs 5ast 1.5stl 1.8blk
Reef: 38min 19pt 7reb 3ast 1.1stl 0.5blk
kids: ???
Bibby: 38min 17pt 4reb 6ast 1.4stl 0.3blk

That's one HELL of a supporting cast. Almost as good as Mike, Peja, Miller AND with last year's MVP thrown in. Big, versatile, multiple post players.

That team still can't beat spurs or suns because there is no perimeter defense existant

 

[Bricklayer]

That team still can't beat spurs or suns because there is no perimeter defense existant

That would depend upon the kids. But:

1) neither the Suns nor Spurs have good defensive PGs either (as I assume you are targeting Bibby)
2) we would have sufficient length and shotblocking up front to deter rampant forays down the lane
3) Why stop there? If the kids can't do it at OG (and Martin/Mo seem respectable if not stoppers) its possible we could get Hassel off of Minnesota in the KG trade if we threw in KT -- Hassel also has a big long contract that they may or may not want. Raja Bell would have been a nice option. Or Earl Watson. Or Jaric. We'd still have the midlevel. Bottomline we'd be close and we'd be dangerous. We would be one minor acquistion away, if even that.
4) If we were really worried about the kids at OG, we could take the kids and any remianing spare pieces (beyond Bobby/Skinner who are important) and go shopping for a defensive OG who can shoot. I would probably let the young guys have their shots, but you could always go one more trade with some decent value pieces.

 

[nbrans]

I'm keeping this short, hopefully other people will weigh in, but let's just quickly look at the lineups we're proposing. And for the record, Abdur-Rahim didn't just arbitrarily decide he's a power forward, it's where he's strongest. He had his best years there. Anyway, here are the teams:

You:

Starting five-
Nene
KG
Abdur-Rahim
Garcia/Martin/Mo
Bibby

Bench-
Bobby
Skinner
Garcia/Martin/Mo
Lenard

Me:

Starting five-
Miller
Abdur-Rahim
Peja
Maurice Evans
Bibby

Bench-
Nene
Bobby
Skinner
Martin
Garcia
(hopefully not) Lenard

You win for star power, I win for depth. I'd still argue mine is a more complete team.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'd argue that your team is about as incomplete as you can get, being bad on the glass, unable to stop penetration, lacking a goto guy and defensive stalwart, and in general soft. I'd also argue that there may never have been an NBA team that won a title on depth, with the only possible exception during my time the Bad Boy Pistons who did it by wearing you down with wave after wave of defensive big men, and were still only 9 deep one year, and 8 the next. Concentration of talent is the key -- you can only play 5 at a time.

 

[NewMonkey]

And Brad's a nice player, but he's a "star" only because we call him a center. 15pts 9rebs is nice, but you know what? Give Nene 38min in my revamped lineup and he can just about equal that and be one of the best centers too. Doesn't take much.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but Nene's career highs are 11.8 points and 6.5 rebounds in 32 minutes. Nene MIGHT have the potential to reach those kind of numbers, but after three full seasons of statistical mediocrity, saying he has anything more than a chance is stretching.

 

[NewMonkey]

There's the positive thinker!

Go revive my Brad and Peja for KG idea, sign Rahim, and I'll go with a Bibby PG, kids OG, Rahim SF, Garnett PF lineup any day. It would have a chance.

Not trying to cause a problem, but I posted this trade on May 2nd. If you posted it before that, then please accept my apologies.

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showpost.php?p=138106&postcount=83

 

[D-Mass]

According to hoopshype, the Spurs may pursue Rahim also (as well as the Nets, Heat, and Wizards). Sorry if this has already been posted.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but Nene's career highs are 11.8 points and 6.5 rebounds in 32 minutes. Nene MIGHT have the potential to reach those kind of numbers, but after three full seasons of statistical mediocrity, saying he has anything more than a chance is stretching.

Worst year at age 21.

But he was 9.6pts 5.9rebs in 23.9min this season, with the limited minutes because of KMart.

And as a starter (18gms) he averaged 12.7pts 6.9rebs in 28.9min -- not much speculation really. Kid's getting better. 15 and 8 in 35 min would be no stretch at all.

P.S. And yes, I have been advocating Peja/Brad for KG well back into the season. But its not proprietary -- like this Nene deal, it just makes sense to a lot of people.

 

[striker]

According to Chad Ford Portland is interested in doing a S&T of SAR for Rasho. Much more than half the insider's stuff is BS though.

 

[mr. moustache]

Why would POrtland want a 7mil Rasho? There's a reason Nazr was getting the minutes.

According to Chad Ford Portland is interested in doing a S&T of SAR for Rasho. Much more than half the insider's stuff is BS though.

 

[D-Mass]

According to Chad Ford Portland is interested in doing a S&T of SAR for Rasho. Much more than half the insider's stuff is BS though.

Now that's bizarre...Rasho is worthless.

 

[striker]

Rasho is underated by a lot people who think he's almost worthless. He will give you a solid 10 - 10 in rebounds and points. He is one of the better defenders in the league at the center spot, both man on and help and one of the better shot blockers too. Don't know if he's worth $7 million but he's not a dog. We'll see what happens but if SAR doesn't end up with the Spurs wouldn't surprise me. Not even sure how he fits if they bring Scola over.

 

[D-Mass]

Rasho is underated by a lot people who think he's almost worthless. He will give you a solid 10 - 10 in rebounds and points. He is one of the better defenders in the league at the center spot, both man on and help and one of the better shot blockers too. Don't know if he's worth $7 million but he's not a dog. We'll see what happens but if SAR doesn't end up with the Spurs wouldn't surprise me. Not even sure how he fits if they bring Scola over.

Someone that tall had better give you 10 and 10...but if he's got the same value as SAR, then we should be getting on the horn and offering them Daniels for Rahim...maybe they'll bite. (No disrespect meant to Eric...but he is the bottom of our bench)

 

[ParniValjak]

So putting as happy a face as I can on this possibility, my revised "Step Aside Geoff" offseason plan:


1) go ahead and get Rahim in the sign and trade, so long as it does not involve Mobley (see #2);

2) pull off the Mobley for Nene and Lenard trade, throw in candy if necessary

3) pull off Brad and Peja for KG trade, throw in candy as necessary

4) avoid using Skinner, Bobby, or the two kids if possible in any of the trades. may have to, but try your best.

5) bring back Mo to play with old pal KG

And enter the season with:

C- 6'11" Nene
PF- 7'1" KG
SF- 6'9" Shareef
OG- 6'7" Garcia
PG- 6'1" Bibby

Bench: 6'0" BJax, 6'9" Skinner, 6'4" Lenard, 6'7" Martin, 6'5" Mo, any of Tag, Corliss, Thomas remaining, and any contracts accepted back in return

Now we're talking. Just let me photoshop up some pics of McHale and Kiki and some distressed farm animals and I'll see you in the WCF next year.

Pipedream

KG will NEVER be a King and people should deal with that. It simply ain't gonna happen. Lets focus on what is gettable out there so if Petrie can get both Nene and Abdul-Rahim and still keep our core of Bibby, Peja and Miller then he would have done an excellent job.

 

[Warhawk]

Pipedream

KG will NEVER be a King and people should deal with that. It simply ain't gonna happen.

I think I fall in this camp as well. I guess it doesn't hurt to dream, though.

 

[ParniValjak]

According to hoopshype, the Spurs may pursue Rahim also (as well as the Nets, Heat, and Wizards). Sorry if this has already been posted.

Wow, Spurs are interested in a soft player that someone here said, Spurs or Pistons would never be interested in

 

[Venom]

I dislike KG personally, but Brick's lineup would be SWEET. And yes, it is an instant WCF team. They beat the Suns easily, I think, in 5 games. Handle the Mavs in about the same. May have difficulty with the Rockets, but probably take them in 6. Sweep the rebuilt Wolves, if they even make it. Outclass Denver in 6. The Spurs are the only Western team that could match Brick's lineup, and they probably win, but that would be one hell of a series.

If you could use the MLE on Reggie Evans, that would give crazy, mean frontcourt depths. No lollygagging to the hole against that squad.

 

[striker]

Someone that tall had better give you 10 and 10...but if he's got the same value as SAR, then we should be getting on the horn and offering them Daniels for Rahim...maybe they'll bite. (No disrespect meant to Eric...but he is the bottom of our bench)

Having such contempt for Rasho as a player it must be pretty disconcerting to realize that if Rasho were on the Kings he would be their best interior defender.

 

[Bricklayer]

Wow, Spurs are interested in a soft player that someone here said, Spurs or Pistons would never be interested in

1) They are getting him for more or less free -- did not use Rasho in their last title run, and Rasho himself is regarded as softish despite the shotblocking skills.

2) this is what's wrong with the Mark Cuban model of fantasy ball GMing -- two years ago I was not sure I do Pierce for Peja. Pierce was still better, but we had our goto player and plenty of guys who liked to have the ball in their hands to create, and so Pierce was an awkward fit. Don't need 5 guys who all need the ball. Now I do it in a second. Players have not changed much. But our team has, and so has its needs. Similarly while Rahim is just a sad pickup for us because it perpetuates our softness, indeed entrenches it to such a degree that its hard to ever get past it no matter how many roleplayers you sign. If you're the Spurs on the other hand you have the defense, rebounding, interior shotblocking already taken care of, and like the Brent Barry acquisition, you feel like maybe you can afford Rahim.

3) Spurs, despite the defensive and rebounding prowess, have long had a bit of soft lingering about them too. Without Horry, they choke this Finals, which would have been 3 of the last 5 years they choked/collapsed out of the playoffs.

 

[piksi]

And yes, it is an instant WCF team.

based on what ?

Did You include injuries here ?

Don't tell me - there will be no injuries because there will be.

 

[Bricklayer]

based on what ?

Did You include injuries here ?

Don't tell me - there will be no injuries because there will be.

Injuries can happen to any team, so not sure what the point is? More durable looking squad than any we have had in a while too, although that was not my goal.

In any case, more high drama and fireowkrs for the Kings in the playoffs. This is a fun series:

Kings v. Suns

C -- Nene v. Thomas
PF -- Garnett v. Amare
SF -- Shareef v. Marion
OG -- kids v. Johnson
PG -- Bibby v. Nash

so is this:

Kings v. Pacers

C -- Nene v. Foster
PF -- KG v. O'Neal
SF -- Shareef v. Artest
OG -- kids v. Jackson
PG -- Bibby v Tinsley

so is this:

Kings v. Pistons

C -- Nene v. Wallace
PF -- KG v. Wallace
SF -- Shareef v. Prince
OG -- kids v. Rip
PG -- Bibby v. Billups