Projected rotation

#31
Having a discussion with amateur NBA fans about whether a player should get 27 minutes, 30 minutes or 33 minutes seems totally absurd.
The coach will figure it out. He does not need our help.
 
#32
Having a discussion with amateur NBA fans about whether a player should get 27 minutes, 30 minutes or 33 minutes seems totally absurd.
The coach will figure it out. He does not need our help.
Maybe us amateur fans should just close this site and let the professionals do their jobs? After all is there any amateurs in here that dare to question or speculate anything this franchise has done for the past ten years? After all it was professionals that were doing the job and obviously professionals dont need our help. Results should show us amateurs that much
 
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Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
#35
Having a discussion with amateur NBA fans about whether a player should get 27 minutes, 30 minutes or 33 minutes seems totally absurd.
The coach will figure it out. He does not need our help.
Then what’s the point of a message board?
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#36
Important Mod Note:

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What about those who prefer dogs?:p
 
#39
Having a discussion with amateur NBA fans about whether a player should get 27 minutes, 30 minutes or 33 minutes seems totally absurd.
The coach will figure it out. He does not need our help.
What is it about the holier than thou clan? It’s a sports message board. Topics in July are in short supply. If you don’t like it go to the SF Giants board and discuss the intricacies of whether someone should lay down a sacrifice bunt.
 
#41
The Kings wore down last year playing 32-34 minutes. They need to play 28-30 max if they plan to play at a faster pace.
I don't think it was the minutes as much as it was the senseless running. Didn't Buddy run like a league high in miles per game or something? Most of that was pointless off ball movement and routes that ended up yielding nothing.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#42
What is it about the holier than thou clan? It’s a sports message board. Topics in July are in short supply. If you don’t like it go to the SF Giants board and discuss the intricacies of whether someone should lay down a sacrifice bunt.
Even though they won last night, they absolutely should have bunted in every single extra inning they got their lead off runner on first, BTW.
 
#44
There are times when the arguments on this board take on an absurd quality. But no one wants to be told that their arguments are absurd. Many have fallen on their swords for less.
 
#45
We unfortunately will have injuries during the season and hopefully not serious ones. When key players go down for even a 3 or 4 game absence it has hurt us.

Yeah we don’t have the superstars others have (yet) but when the key players we have got injured there wasn’t someone anywhere close in talent to spell them. I think that’s changed for the better.
 
#46
The Kings wore down last year playing 32-34 minutes. They need to play 28-30 max if they plan to play at a faster pace.
I like the depth Vlade added for that reason. Cory Joseph can and should play significant minutes to make sure Fox stays fresh all year. Richaun Holmes was a pleasant surprise to me but very important because of Dedmon's health and with their pace they're going to need the bodies.
 
#47
I like the depth Vlade added for that reason. Cory Joseph can and should play significant minutes to make sure Fox stays fresh all year. Richaun Holmes was a pleasant surprise to me but very important because of Dedmon's health and with their pace they're going to need the bodies.

For the record, the Kings highest MPG player on the team last year was Harrison Barnes and for the season he was ranked number 42 in MPG for the year. Buddy was the next at 49. Post all star Barnes saw a moderate bump making it to number 29. Fox was 69th! Unless there are some serious physical issues going on there aren't nearly 50 players better equiped to play those minutes many of which also having higher usage rates than either of them. They need to head the other way in MPG and play more, but do it more efficiently as I stated above. Teams have condensed their talent pool so playing your best players less than real starter minutes likely really won't fly now. I've brought it up before but the Kings PACE was a bit of a misnomer as well. The only players on the team that factored into the PACE were Fox and Buddy. Everyone else was deep on the list compared to the rest of the league. The issues are the amount of senseless running they do in the half court. Cutting minutes isn't the answer.
 
#48
For the record, the Kings highest MPG player on the team last year was Harrison Barnes and for the season he was ranked number 42 in MPG for the year. Buddy was the next at 49. Post all star Barnes saw a moderate bump making it to number 29. Fox was 69th! Unless there are some serious physical issues going on there aren't nearly 50 players better equiped to play those minutes many of which also having higher usage rates than either of them. They need to head the other way in MPG and play more, but do it more efficiently as I stated above. Teams have condensed their talent pool so playing your best players less than real starter minutes likely really won't fly now. I've brought it up before but the Kings PACE was a bit of a misnomer as well. The only players on the team that factored into the PACE were Fox and Buddy. Everyone else was deep on the list compared to the rest of the league. The issues are the amount of senseless running they do in the half court. Cutting minutes isn't the answer.
Are you advocating more isolation in the half-court?

Our front court health and depth was a concern last year as Giles struggled down the stretch and Bagley was banged up at times throughout the year. Dedmon typically has some tweaks throughout the year as well. Add that to how fast we play and I think we needed depth and guys getting breathers. You'll notice I didn't mention Barnes anywhere as he isn't a real concern especially with Ariza behind him. We have really good depth at PG and I hope we take advantage and Fox is healthy and fresh for a late playoff push.
 
#49
Are you advocating more isolation in the half-court?

Our front court health and depth was a concern last year as Giles struggled down the stretch and Bagley was banged up at times throughout the year. Dedmon typically has some tweaks throughout the year as well. Add that to how fast we play and I think we needed depth and guys getting breathers. You'll notice I didn't mention Barnes anywhere as he isn't a real concern especially with Ariza behind him. We have really good depth at PG and I hope we take advantage and Fox is healthy and fresh for a late playoff push.
Giles was hurt down the stretch but he played his best basketball the 20 or so games before he got hurt.

I'm excited to see how we do with CoJo out there. If the Kings were in a competitive game and Fox got a breather, it was almost like ok how many points are they going to fall behind until Fox gets back in? You knew they had almost no shot at staying competitive unless he was out there. I think with CoJo it'll help ease some of those frustrations to where it feels like Fox can get a proper breather. Now we have 2 legit guys at each position that actually belong at the position they play. That gives you a lot of options. Walton can play guys out of position when the game calls for it, not because it's a necessity for lack of depth.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#51
For the record, the Kings highest MPG player on the team last year was Harrison Barnes and for the season he was ranked number 42 in MPG for the year. Buddy was the next at 49. Post all star Barnes saw a moderate bump making it to number 29. Fox was 69th! Unless there are some serious physical issues going on there aren't nearly 50 players better equiped to play those minutes many of which also having higher usage rates than either of them. They need to head the other way in MPG and play more, but do it more efficiently as I stated above. Teams have condensed their talent pool so playing your best players less than real starter minutes likely really won't fly now. I've brought it up before but the Kings PACE was a bit of a misnomer as well. The only players on the team that factored into the PACE were Fox and Buddy. Everyone else was deep on the list compared to the rest of the league. The issues are the amount of senseless running they do in the half court. Cutting minutes isn't the answer.
What do you mean by, "senseless running"?
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#52
I know I've been down on Bogs because of his inconsistent performance over the last two years. Would it surprise me if the Kings' traded him? No, it wouldn't. That said, it is now presumed on this board that Bogs will be a sub for Buddy at the 2G position. I'm not presuming that currently. Why? Because we presumed the same thing last year: Bogs would be the starter and Hield would be his sub. How did that turn out? And I'm not presuming it because we should safely and reasonably assume that Bogs isn't assuming he'll be the sub for Buddy. Does anyone believe that Bogs' thinks he's less of a player than Buddy? Lastly, I don't see Walton at the beginning of training camp informing Bogs he's the sub for Buddy, so get used to coming off the bench. Just like last year, I think it will be a situation of "Let the best man win."
 
#53
Are you advocating more isolation in the half-court?

Our front court health and depth was a concern last year as Giles struggled down the stretch and Bagley was banged up at times throughout the year. Dedmon typically has some tweaks throughout the year as well. Add that to how fast we play and I think we needed depth and guys getting breathers. You'll notice I didn't mention Barnes anywhere as he isn't a real concern especially with Ariza behind him. We have really good depth at PG and I hope we take advantage and Fox is healthy and fresh for a late playoff push.
Where did you gather that from in my statement? They need to run less complex ball screening that leads to shots later in the clock, and move towards quicker hitting sets like pick and roll.
 
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#54
What do you mean by, "senseless running"?
Half court ball screening. That's where most of the running came from, and I pointed it out quite a bit last season as it was happening. They would typically run a lot of weak side routes for guards that would be reset, or ditched. They'd have bigs come up and set screens multiple times that were sometimes never used, or never used effectively. There was a ton of wasted movement. The minutes as the stats showed aren't the issue in any other way than they weren't playing their most talented players enough. That 4-5 minute talent discrepancy per game so you can use your depth can kill you over the course of the season. Remember all those questions about certain players sitting out and others playing at the end of the year? Well, it hurt the Kings chances in the end. I don't know how Walton intends to run his rotation but Joergers plan of inserting stars with 3 minutes left in the game is a total loser. If you can't play more than 30 minutes a game regardless of pace you're in the wrong business. Buddy can run all night so him running isn't a problem in and of itself, it just has to mean something when he does.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#55
Half court ball screening. That's where most of the running came from, and I pointed it out quite a bit last season as it was happening. They would typically run a lot of weak side routes for guards that would be reset, or ditched. They'd have bigs come up and set screens multiple times that were sometimes never used, or never used effectively. There was a ton of wasted movement. The minutes as the stats showed aren't the issue in any other way than they weren't playing their most talented players enough. That 4-5 minute talent discrepancy per game so you can use your depth can kill you over the course of the season. Remember all those questions about certain players sitting out and others playing at the end of the year? Well, it hurt the Kings chances in the end. I don't know how Walton intends to run his rotation but Joergers plan of inserting stars with 3 minutes left in the game is a total loser. If you can't play more than 30 minutes a game regardless of pace you're in the wrong business. Buddy can run all night so him running isn't a problem in and of itself, it just has to mean something when he does.
I want movement in the half court. The last thing I want is someone standing in the corner. What I didn't like last year was too much standing around and watching, leaving Christie repeatedly saying the Kings need to move ball and man. I don't disagree about the "senseless" part, but movement? - the more the better.

As an aside, when the Kings play GS next year I want them to run Curry's A$$ off on the defensive end. Even if it's senseless, I'd still like them to do it. The more they tire him out on the defensive end, the less energy he'll have for offense.
 
#56
I want movement in the half court. The last thing I want is someone standing in the corner. What I didn't like last year was too much standing around and watching, leaving Christie repeatedly saying the Kings need to move ball and man. I don't disagree about the "senseless" part, but movement? - the more the better.

As an aside, when the Kings play GS next year I want them to run Curry's A$$ off on the defensive end. Even if it's senseless, I'd still like them to do it. The more they tire him out on the defensive end, the less energy he'll have for offense.
I'm with you about the movement in general. It's more about movement with a purpose, and honestly, they could use a little better spacing and less muck in the middle even if it means a little less off ball movement in their half court. When Bagley is posting, or Fox is looking to drive you can't have players running in their space. The Kings were off an on with their ability to find spot shooters and instead relied way to much on players shooting off the screen. Spot shots are almost always going to be higher percentage looks for most players. The Kings need to gear their offense towards their best players and that means they need to see the ball. Last year there was a ton of ball movement so give Joerger that much credit. The problem was it it was too much side to side and not enough attack. They have what appears to be one of the best attack guards to come around in a long time and an attack big in Bagley that need space. Drive and dish, pick and roll, passing out of the post up, there are many effective ways to run offense besides side to side movement in the high post/ 3 point line or a weave.

As for Curry, I don't know what their team will look like next year but the Warriors are a switch team so you can't really run their players ragged off screens because they switch most of them. Ironically the way to beat that is to create a mismatch 1 on 1 when they do switch. On the other end Joerger watched his team get run ragged because he demanded they go over most screens.
 
#57
It will be interested in seeing how Walton runs the offense as he must be excited with the overall talent at his disposal.

I also believe that with the signing of some good defensive minded players it will make it easier to get out in transition.

I understand that the minute distribution for our key players was not as high as some would like but but running a offense in which a couple of players dribble the ball to death while others are running around senseless tells me something was seriously wrong. As christy said we needed more ball movement.

Last year their were several games before the break and down the stretch where it seemed the coach mailed it in that the team needed a rest. Add that to those poorly coached games that let very large leads evaporate.
 
#58
I want movement in the half court. The last thing I want is someone standing in the corner. What I didn't like last year was too much standing around and watching, leaving Christie repeatedly saying the Kings need to move ball and man. I don't disagree about the "senseless" part, but movement? - the more the better.

As an aside, when the Kings play GS next year I want them to run Curry's A$$ off on the defensive end. Even if it's senseless, I'd still like them to do it. The more they tire him out on the defensive end, the less energy he'll have for offense.
I think he's kind of referring to what Ben McLemore used to do. BMac was constantly in motion on offense. Always cutting from one corner to another, going baseline etc. In the end, it was just wasted movement because he didn't have the IQ, nor the coaching (except when Malone was here) to get himself open. It was just a lot of running for nothing because it rarely ended in an open look.

Our current players are better at it but I think he's referring to cutting down on the wasted movement, that way the players can play more minutes without getting as fatigued. With better coaching you still have the movement, except you get the same quality shot attempt without Buddy having to run more miles than anyone else in the league. In the end the result is the same except your player is less tired and can play more minutes if need be. Nothing wrong with making more efficient use of the movement out there.

If other teams are switching on the Kings, it's like Buddy has to run a marathon against a team of guys in a relay race.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#59
I'm with you about the movement in general. It's more about movement with a purpose, and honestly, they could use a little better spacing and less muck in the middle even if it means a little less off ball movement in their half court. When Bagley is posting, or Fox is looking to drive you can't have players running in their space. The Kings were off an on with their ability to find spot shooters and instead relied way to much on players shooting off the screen. Spot shots are almost always going to be higher percentage looks for most players. The Kings need to gear their offense towards their best players and that means they need to see the ball. Last year there was a ton of ball movement so give Joerger that much credit. The problem was it it was too much side to side and not enough attack. They have what appears to be one of the best attack guards to come around in a long time and an attack big in Bagley that need space. Drive and dish, pick and roll, passing out of the post up, there are many effective ways to run offense besides side to side movement in the high post/ 3 point line or a weave.

As for Curry, I don't know what their team will look like next year but the Warriors are a switch team so you can't really run their players ragged off screens because they switch most of them. Ironically the way to beat that is to create a mismatch 1 on 1 when they do switch. On the other end Joerger watched his team get run ragged because he demanded they go over most screens.
I see it a little bit differently. I've been re-watching some of the games last year, in particular the key games coming down the stretch when they were in the middle of the playoff race (e.g. the Woves and then the Bucks). In both games I see too much "hero ball." In the Wolves game I see Buddy and Bogs trying to make something happen off of the dribble; Buddy has a huge amount of key turnovers that contributed to the loss (as well as non-existent WCS defense against KAT). In the Bucks game, however, I see them using screens, and I see both Buddy and Bogs not over-dribbling and effectively shooting while using those screens. But when the game becomes tight in the final five minutes or so (the game went to OT), I again see "hero ball." I see both Buddy and Bogs attack the basket, but they attack using the dribble, and in a couple of cases Buddy tries to take it to the basket starting from 30+ feet out on the perimeter. Needless to say, he's stuffed at the basket in both cases. Bogs does his version of tunnel vision hero ball and drives to the basket; sometimes he succeeds, but fails more often. In the case of Fox he tries to take it all the way to the basket in the final minutes in a fast break situation; he has to make a split decision to go for it or not go for it, and his attempt fails. Otherwise, Fox seems to move the ball, much more than either Buddy or Bogs. What is very rare is the occasion where a player drives to the basket and finds someone open on the perimeter for a three point shot. In several instances there are players wide open on the perimeter. The lack of teamwork, discipline and patience contributed greatly to those losses.
 
#60
I see it a little bit differently. I've been re-watching some of the games last year, in particular the key games coming down the stretch when they were in the middle of the playoff race (e.g. the Woves and then the Bucks). In both games I see too much "hero ball." In the Wolves game I see Buddy and Bogs trying to make something happen off of the dribble; Buddy has a huge amount of key turnovers that contributed to the loss (as well as non-existent WCS defense against KAT). In the Bucks game, however, I see them using screens, and I see both Buddy and Bogs not over-dribbling and effectively shooting while using those screens. But when the game becomes tight in the final five minutes or so (the game went to OT), I again see "hero ball." I see both Buddy and Bogs attack the basket, but they attack using the dribble, and in a couple of cases Buddy tries to take it to the basket starting from 30+ feet out on the perimeter. Needless to say, he's stuffed at the basket in both cases. Bogs does his version of tunnel vision hero ball and drives to the basket; sometimes he succeeds, but fails more often. In the case of Fox he tries to take it all the way to the basket in the final minutes in a fast break situation; he has to make a split decision to go for it or not go for it, and his attempt fails. Otherwise, Fox seems to move the ball, much more than either Buddy or Bogs. What is very rare is the occasion where a player drives to the basket and finds someone open on the perimeter for a three point shot. In several instances there are players wide open on the perimeter. The lack of teamwork, discipline and patience contributed greatly to those losses.

Clearly a lot of that was the game plan, and I think it might have been trying to see if the players could grow in getting to the line. It's still almost always going to lead to your best players being in that position anyway because defenses will eventually force you there. I stated a few ways above to make it much easier when that happens. If you also notice there was a bit more post up play towards the end of the year as well. It's hard to run sets like that and muck up the middle. Again, I can't say what Walton intends to do but Joeger never effectively utilized the weak side of the floor properly nor did he run and offense where the intent was to put his best players in a position to score or create sets shots for their teammates. The dish part of the drive and dish is key. Joerger wanted them attacking all the way to the rim and that's a major reason why one of the best 3 point shooting teams in the league by percentage were so low in attempts. Joerger ran an antiquated game plan of attacking middle in with players that are better situated away from the rim. From what it sounds like the Kings will shift more towards taking those open 3's and their signings will aid things in that regard so hopefully that happens.