Preseason Grades v. Suns 10/17/2013

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
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Boxscore

Well, this will not be a conventional grades thread since I didn't get a chance to watch the game. but these threads have always served as a convenient spot for postgame commentary, so thought I would put one up. Obviously anyone who did get a chance to see the game can toss out some grades if they'd like to.


With that I will leave you will an absolutely fabulous video taking the viral world by storm with 8 million views in the last 3 days since it debuted. Enjoy!:

 
With that I will leave you will an absolutely fabulous video taking the viral world by storm with 8 million views in the last 3 days since it debuted. Enjoy!:


Oh. Dear.. As an ethnic Chinese I find it particularly funny.

Moving on.

Vasquez (10 points on 3-6, 2 assists in 15 mins) -- B+
Vasquez came out strong and was doing all the scoring for us early on. Hit two threes and did a pretty good job running the team. In the second quarter came after the previous lineup had stunk it up and delivered a beautiful alleyoop to McLemore. Got a steal on the next possession and tried for another lob but I think McLemore got fouled. Don't really know because they were showing the video of the previous play during that entire sequence. Got torched at times by Bledsoe, but no real surprise there.

Jimmer (23 points on 9-15, 5 assists, 4 rebounds, 2 steals in 31 mins) -- A
Very very good game for Jimmer. Started the game not really looking for his shot and looking hesitant at times to take the quick open 3. Was setting guys up for open shots from the get go, but Patterson and JT in particular were doing their best to cost everybody their assists. Played 8 minutes in the first quarter and scored on a layup for his lone points of the half. Didn't return until the 3rd, where he exploded for 13 points on a couple of 3s. His 3s came in different fashions, some where he got a screen and just took a dribble and pulled up. One came in transition and he also made one of those really long ones that wasn't that great a shot but got the crowd going. On defense he wasn't too bad - obviously lost the athletic battle against Shannon Brown, but for the most part he held his own and was in the right spots. When JT and Patterson showed hard on pick and rolls Jimmer was able to get back and defend his man. Similarly, he helped the bigs where necessary, on one play just checking Gortat and slowing him down for a second which gave Cousins time to recover and eventually get a block on Gortat.

What I liked most was that Jimmer was looking for guys and playing good team ball. Led the team in assists despite not being the primary ballhandler at any point and would have had at least 2-3 more if JT and Patterson hit their normal shots.

Outlaw (3 pts on 1-3, 2 rebounds 1 assist in 19 minutes) -- B-
Travis played a pretty passive game, not really helping or hurting the team. Stayed out of the way for the most part as IT/Cuz were eating up all the shots. His length helped on the defensive end and right now is my pick for starting SF, given the dearth of alternatives.

Cousins (29 points on 8-15, 9reb, 6 steals in 27min) -- A-
Says a lot about a guy when he gets an A- despite scoring 29 and grabbing 9 boards. But to put it simply, Cousins didn't quite dominate as much as he did in previous games. Started the game off slow and had trouble finishing around Gortat. Earned half of his points from the line (13-18), but a good 8 of those attempts came from loose ball fouls. Kinda picked things up in the late 2nd/early 3rd where he was using his quickness to get by Gortat. Active on the boards which led to him earning more trips to the line and getting a couple of easy putbacks. Played the passing lanes and picked up a good number of steals. We were feeding him in the second/third and he delivered. Though Brick has Cuz spanking Gortat it really was more of him dominating Len/Plumlee, because Gortat also had his way with Cuz at times.

IT (4 points on 2-9, 1 assist in 20 mins) -- D-
Arguably one of IT's worst games ever. Was only looking for his shot the entire game, and this time round wasn't hitting them. This is one instance where the box score pretty much does tell you the whole story. We had our worst line up in the game with IT/MT/Salmons/Patterson/JT in the first half of the second quarter. That lineup (with Cousins later repalcing Patterson) scored only 6 points in almost 6 minutes of play. On one play IT got the ball tied up dribbling it around aimlessly, stole the jumpball when it was tipped out, and proceeded to launch a 3 straightaway. Needless to say, he bricked it. His sole assist came in the 3rd quarter when he penetrated and kicked it out top to Jimmer for an open 3. Defense was normal IT defense. I simply don't see IT/MT as a viable combo going forward.

Would love to write more but I'm late for school. Maybe later!
 
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Definitely an A for Cousins. He rarely settled for the outside jumper and punished the Suns bigs inside. And Gortat is no slouch either, big and quick. But Cuz used his quickness and strength on an array of post moves that kept getting him to the line if not finishing. I was very impressed by what I saw out of Cuz, gets me excited for this year.
 
Was at the game and enjoyed the heck out of it.

PG- Vasquez had the edge but Thomas and McCallum looked OK if not outstanding.
SG- Fredette stole the show tonight. On defense he played hard and aggressive partially compensating for natural limitations. Thornton didn't get the chance to show much. McLemore wasn't involved very much but he sure fed the hilite reel.

SF- Salmons and Outlaw didn't show much but salmons had the edge, more with it.

PF- Patterson and Thompson were probably a toss up tonight with Pat getting the most minutes.

C- C is for cousins who had another great game. It was good to see "H" play some significant minutes. Shows some raw promise with rough edges.

A very entertaining game which gave me a chance to what I believe is Malone's good work. If they can keep it up and continue to improve, they'll a couple of extra notches on their revolver this year, do a little better than I was expecting.
 
Vasquez is looking really good and is actually getting the ball to players (assists or not) who have easier shots than I have seen in the past.
 
was at the game tonight. a couple of my thoughts:

Cousins absolutely owned Gortat. it was very encouraging. his post game looks a lot better than last year.

Vasquez definitely should be the starting PG

Jimmer plays WAYYYYY better as a SG

N'Daiye was all over the place altering shots.
 
Whats up with MT? Did he just get low minutes because Jimmer was hot? To be fair to Jimmer, besides his rookie year, he has looked good whenever he has gotten extended minutes, thats with being on a short leash, to his credit a lot of guys would crumble under his circumstances, maybe he is earning himself some minutes, especially with IT and MT being up and down so far. Grievis seems like the starter, IT is a shoot first, second, pass third PG, nothing wrong with that but that kind of player is best suited off the bench, especially since we have Cousins as the focal point, we need a a good facilitator and spot shooters around him. Grievis also seems like a natural leader, which is a must from your starting PG.
 
Whats up with MT? Did he just get low minutes because Jimmer was hot? To be fair to Jimmer, besides his rookie year, he has looked good whenever he has gotten extended minutes, thats with being on a short leash, to his credit a lot of guys would crumble under his circumstances, maybe he is earning himself some minutes, especially with IT and MT being up and down so far. Grievis seems like the starter, IT is a shoot first, second, pass third PG, nothing wrong with that but that kind of player is best suited off the bench, especially since we have Cousins as the focal point, we need a a good facilitator and spot shooters around him. Grievis also seems like a natural leader, which is a must from your starting PG.

That lineup with IT/MT/Salmons has awful. Nobody was creating shots for anyone else. If IT is gonna be a scoring PG I really don't think we can pair him with MT (or Mclemore). If he's taking the 6th man scoring role as a. PG we should pair him with a defensive SG.
 
That lineup with IT/MT/Salmons has awful. Nobody was creating shots for anyone else. If IT is gonna be a scoring PG I really don't think we can pair him with MT (or Mclemore). If he's taking the 6th man scoring role as a. PG we should pair him with a defensive SG.

absolutely agreed. that lineup (unsurprisingly) looked a lot like last year's offense at its worst. as bad as IT looked last night, the fact that he shared quite a bit of his time with those two on the wings is somewhat of a mitigating factor. combine the uncreative and selfish offense of those three with their putrid defense and that might be the Kings' worst perimeter combo. really don't want to see them play together again.

other random things:

- Jimmer looked hella comfortable on offense against the Phoenix scrubs, would like to see him get an extended look against a defense actually applying pressure against him. this game, he basically could get to any spot on the floor he liked and made some really good passes. notably, he drove middle once and took a contested floater that didn't fall when he had PPat open in the corner. then, a few plays later, pretty much the same situation occurred only this time he passed the ball to the corner and Patrick nailed the shot. encouraging, if not for the team than definitely for his trade value. his defense was okayish. didn't have much of a challenge there either, once Dragic sprained his ankle, but was able to hide quite well. did give up one of his trademark trying to stop a fastbreak by his lonesome only to give up an and-1 things he has a penchant for (think Hadlowe noted that in the Clips game threads).

- JT, I thought, played a very solid second half, making mostly good plays on offense, cleaning up the boards and containing penetration quite well. him and PPat both played fairly well together on the defensive end, imo, although PPat still struggles having any sort of impact in the restricted area (allowing Miles Plumlee to score over you? really?). the well it was the Suns caveat applies here as well, of course, but looking to play those two together when Cuz rests seems like a good idea. especially once Landry comes back, if he and Cuz mesh against all odds.

- if Cuz decides to dominate games at the FT line that would be absolutely fine by me. Gortat did get him back once or twice in the second half, but in the beginning he just looked positively helpless, simply hacking at Cuz every time he got beat (he got beat a lot). clearly profits from a structured offense, especially if Greivis is running it. still gets a bit overenthusiastic at times as evidenced by his TOs, most notably that unnecessary charge running the break, but all those other negatives, lack of effort on defense, pouting and being overly concerned with the officials have improved a ton. especially his rapport with the refs looks a lot better. will be interesting to see if this holds up if things don't go his way, but thus far, it's been really encouraging.

- also encouraging: the fact that the team seems to be intent on winning the freethrow battle. my memory might be fuzzy on this, but IIRC, they kept the Suns off the line for the most part, until they started giving up a lot of Orebs late with Locket playing the four (for whatever reason). it's a very good sign for a defense, imo.
 
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I try not to get too excited about games like this. 1) it's preseason. 2) it's against the second worst team in the west.

That said, Other than the first game of preseason, Boogie looks like a franchise centerpiece. I want him to stake a claim on best offensive center in the league this year. Defensively, he lacks the tools to catch that guy in Houston. His only real competition for the offense crown is Brooke Lopez, and Brooke has to share shots with a bunch of over-the-hill former all-stars.

Jimmer had a good game from the field, but, more encouragingly, with some noteworthy (by virtue of not totally failing) defense on Dragic and Bledsoe. Neither one of those guys is an offensive powerhouse, but they are both quicker than Jimmer and he managed to be in the right position to not give up a ton of easy looks. He also showed the one skill that his major minutes rival (Thornton) clearly lacks, ball movement. He may have played himself into the rotation or a trade where he will get minutes. Either is fine with me.

McLemore didn't shoot particularly well, but finished at the rim well. I'll take that. I want him starting in the first game of the season.

Thornton continues to disappoint. I like the kid's talent, but he seems to have his head stuck up his bum right now and is going to play himself onto the deep bench if he can't get with the team concept. In the preseason, he hasn't once played as comfortably within the system as Jimmer did last night or in his brief time against the Lakers. That is troubling to me.

IT played like the 60th draft pick tonight. Selfish, inefficient, chucky basketball. This entire preseason he has looked very uncomfortable outside of broken play/freelance ball and on the break. Defensively, he has been baaaaad. I saw more effort out of him on defense last year under Smart than I have under Malone. I'm tempted to chalk tonight's game up to sharing the floor with perennially stinky Salmons and "I'ma shoot this now" Thornton, but there are playstyle problems that run deeper. Whatever chance he had at the starting pg spot is probably gone.

McCallum did not shoot well, but ran the team reasonably well out there and played disruptive defense. McCallum may develop into a very good Kirk Hinrich type point guard in a year or two. That is a great resource to have available. I am liking this draft pick more and more. Run him out there with a combo guard (*coughJimmer) to help distribute the ball in the second unit and you have a potent backup backcourt available. He outplayed both IT and Thornton tonight.

After the preseason games thus far, this is the regular season lineup I think we'll see:

Starting five:
5) Cousins
4) Patterson
3) Mbah a' Moute
2) McLemore
1) Vasquez

That gives you outside shooting from Patterson, McLemore and Vasquez, defense and rebounding from Mbah a Moute, and inside presence from Cousins.

Bench:

Thompson (splitting minutes at Center and PF)
Hayes (spot minutes or in certain matchups to stop guys like Blake Griffin)
Outlaw
Thornton (minutes decreasing as McLemore gets more comfortable)
IT (30 minutes or more per game)

I would like to move Jimmer into Thornton's role. He isn't the closer that Thornton is, but he is a better fit with the new team concept, and I think that is more important. I would also prefer to move McCallum into IT's role, but I don't want to rush that. McCallum is still raw and lacks the offensive punch that IT has.
 
Cousins looks good to me. Seems like he's added a couple of post moves to his game. Hopefully this will keep him from a few of his notoriously bad shooting nights and get him to 50% on the season.

Vasquez looks like a real point guard. The offense runs so much smoother with him handling the ball than anyone else. I think he's going to be the one to get McLemore going.

Jimmer looked like a different player. We all know he can shoot but it was his ball handling in the 3rd and 4th that caught me by surprise. Jimmer was crossing guys up, spinning in the lane and making jump passes right on the numbers. You could tell after he hit all those 3's in a row that his confidence exploded and he just went off with skills I didn't even know he had. If this Jimmer can show up more often than not, he can be a valuable player whether his shot is working or not.

IT looked horrible. I'm not even going to talk about his offense because we know he can score. It's his defense that's killing us. Everyone always makes the excuse "Well he's short so guys just shoot right over him". He's not a bad defensive player because he's short and guys rarely shoot over him. IT is a revolving door on the perimeter. Any player with any semblance of quickness can get around IT at will. I hope Malone can turn IT's quickness into a positive on the defensive end because we just cannot have McCallum as the only PG on the team that can defend worth a damn.

MT looks uninterested. I think this is going to be the season where MT pouts more than he ever has. I see Salmons playing SG more often if MT doesn't get it going. At least Salmons can defend even if his offense isn't going. If MT isn't playing above average on the offensive side, he's useless.

Ndiaye...whats with that "put back" on McCallums layup? That was as bad as I've ever seen. How can you make elementary school mistakes like that on an NBA court?
 
Some really cool stats last night:

+10 in steals
+13 in Turnover's
+16 in FT attempts

+3 in Ast
+6 in 3p made

just looking at the box score, TO's and FT's seem to tell the story. the kings did not shoot particularly well as a team last night, and they were outrebounded by a considerable margin. but they generated a LOT of the suns' TO's (16 steals!!!), and they got to the line on a night when the shots weren't falling consistently...

again, i didn't watch the game, but, looking at the box score, coach malone seems to be doing a pretty great job communicating his expectations for the team's offensive hierarchy. cousins took 15 shots in 27 minutes, while also putting up 18 FT's. he was clearly the #1 option, as he should be every single game. we're paying him a franchise talent's salary, and he has the skills to become a true franchise talent, so he should be treated like a franchise talent...

beyond that, jimmer was the #2 option last night, likely because malone wanted an extended look at him, and it was of those games he occasionally has where his confidence is through the roof. elsewhere, it sounds like IT forced up some garbage, but, for the most part, the shot distribution is right on everywhere else, given the kings' apparent game plan for this matchup. the offense needs to move through cousins, which will free up at least one of the Kings Corps of Chuckers to get hot on any given night...

the suns are just a step above D-league status, at the moment, so, like much of this preseason, we don't exactly know how the kings will fare against stiffer defensive competition, but there are certainly positives to take away from games like these...
 
the suns are just a step above D-league status, at the moment, so, like much of this preseason, we don't exactly know how the kings will fare against stiffer defensive competition, but there are certainly positives to take away from games like these...

I will only disagree with you in one respect. The Suns have some very good defensive pieces. PJ Tucker, Goran Dragic, Eric Bledsoe, and Gortat are all solid defenders. Bledsoe in particular is one of the strongest defensive guards in the league.

Offensively, though, the Suns are a mess. They are riddled with stretch 4s, but lack any real outside threats at any other position. Dragic is a decent outside shooter, but not a knock-down guy by any means. Bledsoe's offensive ability is scattered and inconsistent, and he doesn't run an offense as well as he should. Gortat is a decent all-around center, finishes plays pretty well around the rim, but is probably the 15th or 16th best Center in the league, a notoriously weak position. I don't relish Hornacek's job in trying to create wins out of this roster. I have them finishing with the third worst record in the league behind Philly and Utah.
 
just looking at the box score, TO's and FT's seem to tell the story. the kings did not shoot particularly well as a team last night, and they were outrebounded by a considerable margin. but they generated a LOT of the suns' TO's (16 steals!!!), and they got to the line on a night when the shots weren't falling consistently...

again, i didn't watch the game, but, looking at the box score, coach malone seems to be doing a pretty great job communicating his expectations for the team's offensive hierarchy. cousins took 15 shots in 27 minutes, while also putting up 18 FT's. he was clearly the #1 option, as he should be every single game. we're paying him a franchise talent's salary, and he has the skills to become a true franchise talent, so he should be treated like a franchise talent...

beyond that, jimmer was the #2 option last night, likely because malone wanted an extended look at him, and it was of those games he occasionally has where his confidence is through the roof. elsewhere, it sounds like IT forced up some garbage, but, for the most part, the shot distribution is right on everywhere else, given the kings' apparent game plan for this matchup. the offense needs to move through cousins, which will free up at least one of the Kings Corps of Chuckers to get hot on any given night...

the suns are just a step above D-league status, at the moment, so, like much of this preseason, we don't exactly know how the kings will fare against stiffer defensive competition, but there are certainly positives to take away from games like these...

Well since I did watch the game I'll point out your (slight) errors :)

1) Half of Cousins FTs came from him getting fouled in loose ball situations, so the FT shooting doesn't exactly tell the full story that he was the #1 option. For the large part though, he was, and we fed him the ball and rode him. Just pointing out that the FT numbers weren't a result of that.

2) Jimmer actually wasn't the #2 option at all. He was pulled in the late 1st and didn't play the rest of the first half. When he was in he wasn't really getting the ball much either, compared to say IT/JT/Patterson/Cousins. In the second half there were many times when he didn't touch the ball on offense either, or when he was open and team mates didn't get him the ball. Even after he'd hit a few threes either in transition or on kickouts he wasn't really the #2 option, and Cousins had already been taken out. He really played a very solid team game, taking what was there and making the right play. It wasn't a concerted effort to get him the ball or anything like that.
 
I will only disagree with you in one respect. The Suns have some very good defensive pieces. PJ Tucker, Goran Dragic, Eric Bledsoe, and Gortat are all solid defenders. Bledsoe in particular is one of the strongest defensive guards in the league.

Offensively, though, the Suns are a mess. They are riddled with stretch 4s, but lack any real outside threats at any other position. Dragic is a decent outside shooter, but not a knock-down guy by any means. Bledsoe's offensive ability is scattered and inconsistent, and he doesn't run an offense as well as he should. Gortat is a decent all-around center, finishes plays pretty well around the rim, but is probably the 15th or 16th best Center in the league, a notoriously weak position. I don't relish Hornacek's job in trying to create wins out of this roster. I have them finishing with the third worst record in the league behind Philly and Utah.

The early aftermath of a deep playoff team losing its ageing stars is something that we as Kings fans should be pretty familiar with. Maybe they'll pick up their franchise player in next years draft.
 
Well since I did watch the game I'll point out your (slight) errors :)

1) Half of Cousins FTs came from him getting fouled in loose ball situations, so the FT shooting doesn't exactly tell the full story that he was the #1 option. For the large part though, he was, and we fed him the ball and rode him. Just pointing out that the FT numbers weren't a result of that.

2) Jimmer actually wasn't the #2 option at all. He was pulled in the late 1st and didn't play the rest of the first half. When he was in he wasn't really getting the ball much either, compared to say IT/JT/Patterson/Cousins. In the second half there were many times when he didn't touch the ball on offense either, or when he was open and team mates didn't get him the ball. Even after he'd hit a few threes either in transition or on kickouts he wasn't really the #2 option, and Cousins had already been taken out. He really played a very solid team game, taking what was there and making the right play. It wasn't a concerted effort to get him the ball or anything like that.

hah, well that's what i get for commenting on a game i didn't watch...

;)
 
Well. Ylvis and Alison Gold seem to be showing the world that pop is truly entering its "Age of Renaissance."

As for the game itself, I'm not too terribly surprised that Jimmer had a good outing. It looks like more and more that the style of play on offense is going to be more of a half-court set up (obvious, with Cousins being the focal point.) To that end, Jimmer certainly has value as a player who can contribute some minutes. Defense still tends to be a struggle, but if the entire unit is playing as a team on both ends, that deficiency can be minimized.

We certainly saw the worst of it last year, where the me-first style of play led to chaos and easy buckets. That certainly magnified Jimmer's (as well as others) weakness on D because they were often left on an island. I'll be curious to see how this plays out. At the very least, I think he proved that he deserves another look, against stronger competition, to see if he can hold his own within the team concept of defense.
 
just looking at the box score, TO's and FT's seem to tell the story. the kings did not shoot particularly well as a team last night, and they were outrebounded by a considerable margin. but they generated a LOT of the suns' TO's (16 steals!!!), and they got to the line on a night when the shots weren't falling consistently...

again, i didn't watch the game, but, looking at the box score, coach malone seems to be doing a pretty great job communicating his expectations for the team's offensive hierarchy. cousins took 15 shots in 27 minutes, while also putting up 18 FT's. he was clearly the #1 option, as he should be every single game. we're paying him a franchise talent's salary, and he has the skills to become a true franchise talent, so he should be treated like a franchise talent...

beyond that, jimmer was the #2 option last night, likely because malone wanted an extended look at him, and it was of those games he occasionally has where his confidence is through the roof. elsewhere, it sounds like IT forced up some garbage, but, for the most part, the shot distribution is right on everywhere else, given the kings' apparent game plan for this matchup. the offense needs to move through cousins, which will free up at least one of the Kings Corps of Chuckers to get hot on any given night...

the suns are just a step above D-league status, at the moment, so, like much of this preseason, we don't exactly know how the kings will fare against stiffer defensive competition, but there are certainly positives to take away from games like these...

Sure, our competition has been sup-par the last 3 games especially. But a lot of what we're doing on the court is stuff that can translate into better regular season play.

- We've made it absolutely 100% clear that Cousins is the man. No ifs, ands, or buts. When he's in the game, he's the big kahuna. Which is awesome.

-Our floor spacing and offensive movement is VASTLY improved all around. Vasquez and McLemore have really helped. As does Ppat, who just by being on the floor, forces a defender out of the paint.

-The defense still has an assortment of issues. But you can tell this is a defense that is getting effort from a majority of the guys on the court. Whether it be closing out on defenders quicker, quicker rotations, it's been a pleasant surprise to watch. We might not be a talented defensive team, but I don't think we'll be talking about a lack of effort very much this season on D as a collective unit
 
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If Jimmer ever became a very good to great ball handler he could be a very good player in this league. I've always noted that he has very high basketball IQ, is a good decision maker and of course his shooting is great, thats without getting the kind of green light a guy like Curry has, Jimmer also has that killer instinct in him, we saw it in college but he has never been able to show it in the league. Defensively yes he is a liability, but so is most any PG in the league with todays rules. His game is actually comparable to Curry, except Curry developed into a great ball handler and is slightly quicker(while Jimmer is stronger).
 
I am really holding back on reporting your post. You just compared Jimmer to Curry.

Mods, can I get a ruling?
Given that some (lot of posters actually) have already written Jimmer off as a 12th man at best as he enters his 3rd year, this doesn't seem any more ridiculous.
 
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