Power Forwards: Kings vs. the West

Oh I think the loss of Christie and Webber (and Vlade) was very much why we ran out of heart, but that doesn't suddenly mean that we had it just because there is an excuse. The Kings of the "classic era" hasd tremendous heart, even if they weren't always clutch. It was a huge part of why they put together so many dramatic games and series over the years. But that team is gone now, and until further notice, so is that exceptional heart. Does not mean that the new squad will be heartless, but it does mean that if it ever develops heart it will be a separate phenomenon from the Doug/Webb/Vlade units.
 
All I'm saying is we didn't lose to the Sonics in the first round of the playoffs because, just like the Tin Woodsman, we didn't have a heart...
 
Like you said Vf21, just making the playoffs with this scrapped together jimmy rigged team showed heart. Most teams would have thrown in the towel after their divac, webber, christie players were traded, but not the Kings. Anyone who says they didn't have heart is a fool who has never played sports at a top level. Anyone who's endured the rigors of the NBA, or any professional sport for that matter, has heart.
 
thesanityannex said:
Like you said Vf21, just making the playoffs with this scrapped together jimmy rigged team showed heart. Most teams would have thrown in the towel after their divac, webber, christie players were traded, but not the Kings. Anyone who says they didn't have heart is a fool who has never played sports at a top level. Anyone who's endured the rigors of the NBA, or any professional sport for that matter, has heart.
Click to expand...

I can't help but feel this was targeted at me, since it was I who said the team didn't have heart.

I believe players all want to win. I would never question that about any player but that doesn't equate heart. We didn’t have a great team, but we had talent, and we had padding. We would've had to stink it up really bad to get bounced out of the playoffs.

It pains me to say it but, the team that showed up in the playoffs is not one I could say had heart. You're the sixth seed, you're the underdog, you are supposed to lose, and you did. Where's the heart in that? There was no battle, you lost 1 to 4. To say that we should just be happy with making the playoffs would be underestimating the talent still on the team. I don't disagree with the label of "jimmy rigged". That's the thing, we accepted our fate, instead of having the heart, the audacity to say hey, we're going to do this together, we're going to prove to the doubters that we will win this. That is heart. I saw none of that. I saw a "jimmy rigged" team out there doing what some expected and shocking those who felt our experience would prevail.

I'm not saying it's fair because it's not. The player personal turnover would kill any team’s hopes of going far in the playoffs. As a fan I felt like the organization quit, I could only imagine what the core players felt. You were having a good year and to see friends and teammates shipped off had to be demoralizing on some level.
 
From my point of view, last years team still had heart and talent, but were only lacking chemistry. jimmy rigged teams can't have chemistry in the matter of a month.
 
I think we should get Rahim, not many FA's left

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050715/SPORTS/507150467/1002

Nets to bide time with Abdur-Rahim
Published in the Asbury Park Press 07/15/05


Last weekend, Shareef Abdur-Rahim said he would make a decision on where to play by the end of this week.

And the Nets said they would like to have a deal for Abdur-Rahim in place by the end of this week.

Well, it's just about the end of the week. And despite considerable posturing from the Portland Trail Blazers, the Nets and Abdur-Rahim's agent Aaron Goodwin, all sides seem to be willing to wait a little longer to work out a sign-and-trade - or at least get Abdur-Rahim to New Jersey via its mid-level exception.

"These things play out in different times for everyone," Nets president Rod Thorn said. "Portland has its agenda, we have our ours, and Shareef has his. They don't always correlate, but they play out."

The Nets have until July 29th to use their $4.9 million trade exception in a sign-and-trade with the Blazers. Portland's requests for a No. 1 pick from New Jersey have been turned down, as has Wednesday's appeal for this year's second-round pick Mile Ilic. But no time ultimatum has been issued by the Nets.

"I don't think it will go as long as July 29th, but I think it could go for awhile longer," said Goodwin.

Abdur-Rahim, 28, can make up to $38 million over six years with the Nets if they can work out a sign-and-trade with the Blazers. If not, the Nets — and other teams — can offer their $4.9 mid-level exception, which pays a maximum of $28 million over five years.

The power forward has averaged 19.8 points per game over his 10-year career, but has yet to play in a playoff game. The Clippers are also in the mix for Abdur-Rahim's services and can pay more than most teams, but he is looking to play for a playoff contender.

Blazers general manager John Nash said he has yet to hear from Goodwin whether Abdur-Rahim has officially chosen the team he would like to play for.

"I think part of the delay is Shareef hasn't made up his mind where he wants to go yet," Nash said. "We can't trade him without him agreeing to it."

BROWN SAGA ONGOING: The limbo surrounding Larry Brown will linger a little longer.

The timetable for resolving Brown's status with the Detroit Pistons was pushed back Thursday after Brown's agent and team president Joe Dumars spoke by telephone.

"Everything is status quo," agent Joe Glass said. "I think it'll come to a resolution in a short period of time." He would not be more specific on a time frame.

KNICKS GET BIGGER: The New York Knicks and free-agent center Jerome James agreed to a five-year deal, according to several media reports.

Marc Fleisher, James' agent, confirmed the approximately $29 million deal Wednesday, but the contract can't be signed until the free-agent signing period begins on July 22.

James, 29, is a 7-foot-1 veteran who averaged 4.9 points, 3.0 rebounds and 1.39 blocks per game in a career-high 80 starts for Seattle last season. He performed well in the first round of the playoffs for the SuperSonics, averaging 17.2 points and 9.4 rebounds in a series win over Sacramento.

KWAME TO HEAD WEST: Kwame Brown is headed to the Los Angeles Lakers, his agent said Thursday.

Arn Tellem confirmed a published report that Brown, the first overall selection in the 2001 NBA draft, will be involved in a trade between the Lakers and Washington Wizards.

It's believed the 6-foot-11 Brown will join the Lakers in exchange for swingman Caron Butler and guard Chucky Atkins.
 
No Rahim, No Swift, No Nene

So the PF list for the Kings gets real short about now. I think Petrie is up to something and typically we won't know until he pulls the string. I'll bet there is a PF in the shadows right now as part of a three team deal and come this weekend POW, another neat suprise.

Then again if he does nothing for awhile it gets painful. But the rabid fans don't seem happy unless the situation appears to some to be painful. Arrgghhh!

We fans may be putting less faith in Skinner and Thomas than the higher ups. And with the larger team size mandate and the NBA DL (new name today for the NBDL: NBA Development League).

Ahhhhhhh, we may not have the piece we need or want until training camp. I'd hate that tho'
 
Bricklayer said:
Hmm...problem is I think your PF list is a bit flawed. Here are the PFs as of last season + offseason moves so far:

Listed in approximate "power" order:
Duncan - Spurs
KG - Wolves
Amare - Suns
Nowitzki - Mavs
Brand - Clips
KMart/Nene - Nuggets
Gasol/Swift -- Grizzlies
Randolph/Shareef - Blazers
Boozer - Jazz
Odom - Lakers
Evans/Fortson - Sonics
Murphy/Diogu - Warriors
Kenny Thomas, Skinner, Songaila - Kings
Brown - Hornets
Howard - Rockets

13th out 15 is not exactly contending sort of stuff. It'll get you a real nifty draft pick though. :)
Click to expand...

Now we're 14th, with Houston picking up Swift.
 
I bet Reggie Evans won't be in Seattle next season. One, being that he is a FA (yes, restricted), and I haven't read a lot about him in the news since July 1 about staying, or anywhere. Two, Radmanovic wants starter money at Seattle. Seattle said they'll match offers, which is extremely interesting as to what they'd do with the foward positions. Story hasn't changed since it was printed two days ago. They'd have an SF at PF. Lewis, who I'd think would be at PF if this were to happen because he can play post. That'd be a thin foward combo, and then you'd have Potapenko back at the C spot like originally planned, before Jerome took it over.

Blazers can move down below us now, same for the Lakers.
 
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2002384608_soni16.html

Sonics notebook: Radmanovic wants starting role and starter's pay

By Percy Allen

Seattle Times staff reporter

Not only are the Sonics and Vladimir Radmanovic negotiating financial terms to secure his return next season, but the two sides are once again discussing what role he'll play if he does rejoin the team.

"If he stays with Seattle, he's going to be a starter," said David Bauman, who represents Radmanovic. "If there's any doubt or question about that, then they should trade him ... We're asking for starter money, and we anticipate that he'll be a starter.

"It was unconscionable that he didn't start one game last year. You had a kid average 29.5 minutes. If you get his minutes up to 35, his production would be 17 [points] and eight [rebounds]."

As it were, Radmanovic averaged 11.8 points and 4.6 rebounds, which were fewer than the previous season when he averaged 12 and 5.3.

Despite the slight decline, Radmanovic seeks a contract in the range that will pay him less than maximum level of six years and $90 million and more than five years and $30 million.

"That's a big window, but that's where we are," Bauman said. "The longer this draws out, the more evidence that I have that Vlade is closer to the top of that range."

In comparison, Bobby Simmons this week reportedly reached a five-year $47 million agreement with Milwaukee. Kwame Brown is expected to receive about $5 million a season after he's traded to the Los Angeles Lakers.

Both were drafted in 2001 with Radmanovic. Simmons had a breakout year last season, while Brown, the No. 1 overall pick in '01, has been a disappointment.

Because Radmanovic is a restricted free agent, the Sonics can match any offer he receives. League sources have indicated the team intends to do just that.

Even still, New Orleans and Cleveland have made inquiries. Milwaukee was interested before choosing Simmons, and Washington and the Los Angeles Clippers approached Seattle about a sign-and-trade deal.

The Sonics are unable to comment on free agents until after the league-wide imposed moratorium ends on July 22.
Still, team sources said the Sonics have made a five-year offer to Radmanovic. Bauman said the two sides have exchanged initial proposals, but declined to go into detail.

The severely sprained right ankle that kept Radmanovic out of the final four games of the conference semifinals has healed, Bauman said.

Edited to ad text of article. - VF21
 
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thesanityannex said:
From my point of view, last years team still had heart and talent, but were only lacking chemistry. jimmy rigged teams can't have chemistry in the matter of a month.
Click to expand...

obviously the team never had time to get the chemistry together. the trades made it close to impossible, and Milller's injury after the Webb trade kind of sealed the deal.

yeah, we had talent, but not the talent that Detroit or the Spurs had. not even close.

I think last year's team had heart, but not the same kind of heart we had the year(s) before. With Vlade, Webb and Christie in there we had a team that loved being Kings, loved the sport, and wanted, so desperately to bring Sacramento the championship they felt they deserved. They were part of a core that made the Kings a team that people (besides just the fans) love to watch, and that people respected. There's never going to be quite that kind of "heart" in this team again, because it was born out of a totally unique experience. The new team will have to find their own reasons to love being a King, and their own identity, and their own passion. It will happen, but it's not going to happen overnight.
 
More on Radmanovic relating to the Sonics foward (PF) situation, and Reggie Evans post of mine before:

Locked On Sports: During free agency, read between lines

By DAVID LOCKE
SPECIAL TO THE POST-INTELLIGENCER

The rhetoric and posturing around free agency is comedic.

Every comment needs to be processed through a truth detector. It can be an agent pontificating, a player elaborating or a general manager trumpeting; all of them lose the truth somewhere along the way.

With an exorbitant number of free agents, Seattle is the hotbed of off-season absurdity.

Last week, Antonio Daniels told The Seattle Times, "Seattle continues to say something to the effect like when and if you get a serious offer, then come back to us and tell us what it is. Well, that makes me feel very unappreciated. ... You never want to close any door, but I'm not the one closing the door."

This comment and others ignored the fact the Sonics have offered Daniels a three-year, $15 million contract. Either Daniels' agent, Tony Dutt, never told Daniels or Daniels conveniently forgot so he could make his point.

Daniels added that starting doesn't matter to him in his free-agency quest. That is contrary to everything Daniels said during the season and in his exit interviews at the close of the season.

David Bauman, Vladimir Radmanovic's agent, was the next contestant in free-agency rhetoric. To Bauman's credit, he hasn't forgotten any offers or ignored previous requests. Instead, after talking 20 minutes with Bauman, you would believe the Sonics should be preparing a 77 jersey to hang from the rafters.

Radmanovic wants to start and he is going to be a star, Bauman says. His camp has been consistent on this demand and claim for years.

Their latest is that Radmanovic should be in the same price range as Bobby Simmons, who signed with the Milwaukee Bucks for nearly $9 million per year; or Kwame Brown, who signed an $8 million-per-year deal with the Los Angeles Lakers. The Sonics have offered a six-year contract that averages around $6.5 million per year.

Bauman says Radmanovic would rather sign the one-year tender offer of $3.2 million and become an unrestricted free agent next season.
Explaining his client's worth, Bauman will tell you that in games in which Radmanovic played more than 33 minutes, he averaged 17 points and 7 rebounds. That is true. He then uses that to show what Radmanovic would do if he were a starter and got those minutes every night.

He ignores the fact that Radmanovic only plays more than 33 minutes when his matchups are the best or when he plays consistently enough to earn those minutes.

Bauman will single out the seven-game stretches in mid-December and mid-January in defining who Radmanovic is as a player. Again ignoring all of February and March, when Radmanovic averaged fewer than 10 points and about four rebounds per game.

The best part is that Bauman is just doing his job.

So how should one decipher all the posturing and half-truths?

The first rule is that anytime you hear the bluster, feel the desperation.

The second rule is that no player is ever as good as his agent says he is.

The third rule is that when an agent says he has one team willing to give his player something, realize that team might be the agent's fantasy team.

Lastly, never place a normal life meaning to words such as "disrespect", "underappreciated" and "comfortable" if they come from a player's mouth.

With those rules in mind and a little investigation around the league, here is what I believe to be the truth on Daniels and Radmanovic.

Surprisingly, after a brilliant season, Daniels is finding the open market less appealing than anticipated. At this moment the Sonics' offer might be as good as he has seen.

Dutt, Daniel's agent, claims a five-year contract is on the table for Daniels. League rules allow for general managers to call other teams to find out what they have offered players so that agents can't set an imaginary market value.

No one has found the five-year offer to Daniels. In fact, some reports have no offer other than the Sonics' at more than two years and no team has been willing to supersede the mid-level exception, which hovers around $5 million a year.

Because Radmanovic is a restricted free agent, the Sonics can match any offer he receives. More importantly, the Sonics can wait seven days to match the offer, which leaves the offering team handcuffed for a week in a fast-moving market.

In all likelihood, Radmanovic will be left with little choice but to return to the Sonics. The bluff of taking the one-year deal to become an unrestricted free agent will be called.

For Daniels, the hope is only that some team reaches desperation when it loses the guy it wants and hands out an extra year or two.

Through all the free-agent talk and haranguing, there is only one thing I can promise you. When the players do sign wherever they sign, they'll say it is the team they always wanted to go to, and the team will say he is the player they had targeted the entire time.
Click to expand...

6.5 mill. per year for 6-years? He doesn't take it? Vlad is one greedy mofo, best place he could start, other than the Wizards.
 
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So now that we got Bonzi, and the SAR deal is dead. The other one thats sort of open out there is still Walker. Do you guys think Bonzi and Walker will be this summers additions? or Bonzi and some other PF? I don't think we have enough for Brand. We also lack a backup Center, unless you count Skinner as that BU Center
 
PFFFT!! said:
So now that we got Bonzi, and the SAR deal is dead. The other one thats sort of open out there is still Walker. Do you guys think Bonzi and Walker will be this summers additions? or Bonzi and some other PF? I don't think we have enough for Brand. We also lack a backup Center, unless you count Skinner as that BU Center
Click to expand...

I think we have to do SOMETHING fairly dramatic up front, oor the Bonzi move will go down in the annals of the great irrelevancies. We've patched one hole, but the other one was the more glaring from the start. And Walker ain't going to fix it unless Geoff is more interesting in scoring and looking silly than winning.
 
Please not Walker. My enthusiasm over the Wells deal would be negated if we got Walker too.
 
I fear that Walker is our 2nd option for PF. We were pretty hot on SAR and since we missed on him, look for Kings to look in Walker direction. I would love to get someone that actually addresses our needs but I fear, we will get Walker either for the MLE or via sign and trade.
 
Thankfully, the deal was out and about in the last 2 weeks. So I'm leaning towards a no on Walker.

Geoff said we have to add rebounding/shot-blocking/size up front... that hints towards a R. Evans/Nene/Eddie Griffin.

Not a Walker, who can rebound, but that's it on those.
 
How many years does Walker have on his contract? He could be a valuable trade piece if he didn't work out. I'd take him for a year with the MLE. Maybe Adelman could smooth him out.
 
thesanityannex said:
How many years does Walker have on his contract? He could be a valuable trade piece if he didn't work out. I'd take him for a year with the MLE. Maybe Adelman could smooth him out.
Click to expand...

"Smoothed out" or nto, its still Antoine Walker. He's still a guy who started out his career as a SF, is 6'8" and can't jump. Even if you take away the worst of stupid decisionmkaing, he is still a miserably soft "power" forward.
 
I'd take him on the cheap, only to see him and miller have a pouty face competition.
 
I am by no means Antoine Walker fan, however, as bad as he is he is still un upgrade on Kenny Thomas.

The way I look at it, if you can't get the player that you really want and need then go for someone who has talent. That way when you have a roster that talented you are always one move away from being a contender.

Personally, I am hoping for better than Walker but if we can't get that and we can get Walker for a reasonable price then I am not THAT much against the idea of getting him and moving him on down the track for the player that we truely are in need of.
 
Čarolija said:
I am by no means Antoine Walker fan, however, as bad as he is he is still un upgrade on Kenny Thomas.

The way I look at it, if you can't get the player that you really want and need then go for someone who has talent. That way when you have a roster that talented you are always one move away from being a contender.

Personally, I am hoping for better than Walker but if we can't get that and we can get Walker for a reasonable price then I am not THAT much against the idea of getting him and moving him on down the track for the player that we truely are in need of.
Click to expand...

I think we have seen just what the trade value of Anotine Walker is anymore. He can't find anybody who wants to pay him more thna the MLE, he's been trades three times in two years, the last two times basically as salary dumps. People are onto him.
 
Bricklayer said:
I think we have seen just what the trade value of Anotine Walker is anymore. He can't find anybody who wants to pay him more thna the MLE, he's been trades three times in two years, the last two times basically as salary dumps. People are onto him.
Click to expand...
And to me thats exactly the type of move that GP and Adelman would do. He is a bit like Wells in that for all his talent he hasn't really had a successful career. He no doubt has his faults but if he can turn them around anywhere its Sacramento. I think everyone would agree that he would fit our offence well so I think this is the reason why we might take a chance on him.

For all his flaws he is clearly the best remaining FA 4 that is available. I also think he would flourish in our system and that would increase his trade value.
 
Čarolija said:
For all his flaws he is clearly the best remaining FA 4 that is available. I also think he would flourish in our system and that would increase his trade value.
Click to expand...

To what end though? Frankly, players flourishing in our system hasn't exactly addressed the weaknesses of such a system. Our frontline would continually get abused by stronger teams if we were to get a Walker type player. I think we have enough offense right now, we need to solve our defensive woes and get a rebounding monster or a Keon Clarke type player that doesn't really fit the system but instead addresses the flaws of our system. I don't know who that player is yet, it could be Evans, it could mean Ratliff, I'm not sure. But what I do know is that we are a few good role players from being a very good team again, in my opinion.
 
Oh yeah, I think Kenny Thomas, coming off the bench could fill any offensive void that we would have at the PF postion if we were to get an Evans type player, the problem is we might need to use him as bait.
 
And Thomas could have a problem w/ coming off the bench, like in March when the Songaila/Thomas situation was there. Of course Thomas was going to get the start spot as he got more familair with the Kings, but he didn't seem to favorable to coming off the bench a lot..
 
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