My sentiments exactly. If players are bent out of shape, let them figure out how to straighten out. Rotations are going to flex until some decent players emerge or are hired or develop from what we have.
Rookie
Starter
Meaning they're part of an elite group that when hired in, you don't really managed them.
Last edited:
JJ22L
Starter
Gotcha. I'm with you on that one for sure.
Rookie
Starter
If the coach lost his players trust than I agreed they will failed. Your statement of players is in control and the coaches need to recognize that is what I have a problem with. While you may disagreed, I believe Phil Jackson has a gripped on Kobe and controlling the team not the other way around.
I agreed.
Last edited:
Yes, confusing so one has to think. Lots of hurt feelings over these last weeks. They need to make use of the coach's "open door". The "no set rotation" and "getting yanked" are part and parcel of a team with little or no experience. And since there are few veterans, its going to be the rule rather than the exception. These players can't be blamed too much because they did not choose to be on a team that is mostly rookie. And since they are, they should be thankful to get the abundant playing minutes that each is getting. There is a lesson to be learned from being yanked for cause. The ones that survive will be the ones that learn from the experience. Go get 'em Westphal, keep up the good work.
JJ22L
Starter
Very good. I concede that I may have incorrectly phrased my wording to imply all players instead of just superstars. I think you and I are on the same page.
Last edited:
And Omri is a 3 and Nocioni is a 3. Donte has skills but no way has he learned how to use them well yet. In the meantime you play him as you can and where you can. I do agree that Donte seems to be working hard on trying to learn and do the right things. He has quite a ways to go and he is so fortunate to be having these opportunities to play so much. On almost any other team he wouldn't be getting these minutes.
L
LWP777
Guest
IMO, Weshphal has lost control of his team. This is quite a turnaround from earlier in the year when we figured we finally found our long term solution for the head coaching position. It's pretty depressing actually. The mark of a good coach is somebody who gets the most out of his players. Earlier in the year, PW did that. Now, the roster is filled with disgruntled guys who aren't playing to their potential. Right now, there is only one player who brings it every night and that's Tyreke, which goes to show you how special he is.
PW needs to stick with ONE starting lineup and get his rotation down to 8-9 players and run with it. Last night, I think he subbed in 4-5 players in the 1st quarter alone, including McGuire and UBroka who both probably won't even be on the team next year. This is Reggie Theus all over again.
PW needs to stick with ONE starting lineup and get his rotation down to 8-9 players and run with it. Last night, I think he subbed in 4-5 players in the 1st quarter alone, including McGuire and UBroka who both probably won't even be on the team next year. This is Reggie Theus all over again.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I completely agree with you Bajaden. Like I said in the game thread, there is no secret video-game-like combination of buttons (players) that is going to unlock the super secret championship kings mode.
I have friends that are lakers fans (yes, I hate to admit I DO have those kinds of friends) that are asking me why Udoka and Noc are still getting minutes over the likes of Donte and Spencer. These are people that have seen maybe 4 kings games all year, and already get it.
I read here somewhere that the pistons loss was just the team being young. BS. The pistons loss was an angry squad of players going through the motions to get the game over with. Can't blame the lack of heart on Martin this time guys, this one was on the coach.
In my profession (law firm manager) i manage a bunch of egos (attorneys- sorry brick
Just so I don't get stampeded by those who advocate the benching, I am not at all saying I am against Spencer being benched by PW to prove a point. I am saying I am against the benching in connection with PW making a statement (verbal and non-verbal) out of one player in particular. More than just Spencer made the comments PW is supposedly "punishing" him for. Alienating a player like that is going to anger the player more than motivate him in my opinion. Spencer just started playing well again and now I see this as being another reset of him back to his angry and non-productive ways. (I also understand that if PW would have done this to 'Reke there would have been a public outcry.)
If what has been said is true, and PW has lost the loyalty of his soldiers, I have a feeling the remaining 20+ games are going to be disgusting. To be honest, I don't blame the players. Assigning roles and promoting a sense of job security is an incredibly important part of getting the best out of your employees. In PW's case, I think he is doing a very poor job of it.
There's no absolute. Job security can also be very bad for job performance. The NBA is a perfect example of that. Baron Davis anyone? Westphal is using minutes as carrots and bench time as sticks to get his players to do uncomfortable things on the floor. Hawes, for example, is comfortable not playing much defense or rebounding typically. That's the deal. We can all argue about whether Westphal is doing too much of it or not, but there's nothing wrong with that method. What other leverage does he have? Take the other extreme. Westphal settles on a rotation. How? Who he thinks he's going to win the most with. The other guys sit on the bench - the rest of the season. Those guys could be any number of guys - Greene, Casspi, Garcia, Thompson, you name it. Now they sit on the bench for the rest of the season. The "winners" have their rotation, never to be changed. It's in concrete. Are you happy with THAT? No, you say, I want the young guys playing. Oh, so now let's put all the young guys out there. ALL OF THEM. Now THEY are in a rotation for the rest of the season. Despite their screw ups, despite their inattention to detail, despite their lackadaisacal play, despite their poor play on defense or rebounding or turnovers, they are in the rotation, period, end of story. Perfect solution. Right? I don't think so. Being a coach of this team is consistently making choices with bad alternatives. That's reality.
JJ22L
Starter
Agreed. There has to be a healthy mix. 100% job security is bad and 100% job insecurity is bad. Unfortunately (and it is probably way overblown), it appears that the majority of our team is more concerned about whether or not PW feels like its a starting night or 4 min/game night as opposed to concentrating on getting the team a W. I understand alot of PW moves but it's moves like Donte playing 35+ minutes one night to starting him and playing him 4 minutes (aside from injury, of course) the next that throw me off.
Again though, my problem is him vocalizing how he is cleaning house to the media. Pushing it into the media forum is a lot different than taking Spencer aside and telling him he's benching him for a night.
Last edited:
kennadog
Dog On It!
And to me Donte is the example of what Hawes should do. PW said he was harder on Donte in training camp, than anyone. He told Donte up front, that if he wanted to get minutes he was going to have to work on become very, very good at defense, because there were enough scoring options on the team. Donte took it to heart and has really worked on it. Certainly he's playing better than last year.
On the other hand, PW has been sending pretty clear messages to Hawes all season about what he needs to do or not do to see floor time, especially as a starter. How much progress have we seen Hawes make this year? To me it seems like he'd rather pout and blame the coach, than work really hard to get better.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
If this problem was merely about Hawes, I wouldn't be concerned. But my gut tells me it runs deeper than that. And, regardless of whether its right or not, if a coach loses the respect of the players, he's done. I happen to be a traditionalist. I like a set starting five. Put one out there and let them play together for at least the rest of the season. I don't care which players you decide to start, just start the same five. Barring injury of course. That doesn't mean you can't subsitute. Sometimes sooner than later. So far the only constant from game to game is Tyreke Evans. Other than that I'm not sure whose going to start the game.
I think its unreasonable to expect the starting players to look like a well oiled machine when you keep changing the parts.
=LarryLegend=
Starter
I personally think the players need to look at tapes of themselves missing free throws and not hitting high percentage shots and maybe show the heart they had at the begining of the year. alot of players are NOT currently earning more mins. I think Omri's current mins should be cut down because he has hit the wall. I have a problem with Hawes crying about mins when the last three games he had 4 rebounds in a total for 60 mins.
its weird to see growth in Donte, Reke and Omri yet Hawes and JT regressed.
its weird to see growth in Donte, Reke and Omri yet Hawes and JT regressed.
Your right. I think the quality is such on this team that we are still looking for "starting players". I don't know who they are and, more importantly, I do believe that the coaching staff doesn't either. Until the coaches find them we are still in a search mode - trying this and trying that to find something that works once so we can try it again. The coaches will solve the rotation and minutes problems when the players come through or some other players are brought in.
JoMama
Bench
Agree with the following points that have been made:
1. Donte IS indeed a natural 3.
2. I too am rooting for Westphal to succeed as the Kings head coach.
3. Tyreke was a mature man at 10, while Hawes still isn't fully cooked. Hawes still needs some growing up time and will be just fine.
1. Donte IS indeed a natural 3.
2. I too am rooting for Westphal to succeed as the Kings head coach.
3. Tyreke was a mature man at 10, while Hawes still isn't fully cooked. Hawes still needs some growing up time and will be just fine.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
He's gone through 2/3 of one season without Garcia and Martin, third youngest team in the league, then Garcia and Martin comes back. Has to get them back in the lineup. Nocioni is today better than any of our younger 3s, but needs to sit him for the future. Where's the minutes? Martin comes back and is bent because he's no longer #1. With Martin back, where are the minutes at the two? Martin asks for a trade (no doubt). Asks the coach for stuff Westphal cannot and should not give (like an offense run for him). Now Martin gets traded. Bring in three new guys. Now there is a huge overload at the three. Minutes are scarce at the 3/4/5. Something's got to give. Spencer's minutes. Spencer complains in public. NO DOUBT he's complained repeatedly in private. Entitled, he is. All dealing with immature 20 something millionares with guaranteed contracts. (Have you dealt with THAT in small business?). The Kings fans are so good at self immolation. Just burn the guy so you can get some more kindling next year.
Last edited:
Gliesian
Bench
Our players are so bad and we've lost so much that they want someone to blame. I don't agree with PW's constant lineup shift, mean-mugging of refs, or public spanking Spencer, but he's still a good coach. A TON better than anything we've had since Adleman. Can you imagine these players playing for Eric Mussleman? If our guys start a mutiny (I think it's really only Hawes) then that shows poor judgement and they deserve to be inactive.
Entity
Hall of Famer
Maybe if our players played consistent they would get consistent minutes. hell if you can come out one game and give me 16pts 8reb 3ast 2blks you damn well better not give me 2pts 1reb 0ast 0blks the next game vs an equal opponent with similar minutes. Thats really the lesson PW is stressing to them. Remeber early in the year when JT was doing well every game even getting double doubles in back to back games several times. Well at that time he was getting 30+ min. When JT reverted to single digit scoring and rebounds and making bonehead mistakes well his minutes declined. It should.
Let's just wait till this whole saga is over and look at Hawes' performance. If he improves and becomes more consistent, this whole thing blows over and PW is a genius for benching him. If he doesn't and PW decides to bench him just to back up his own ego, then good game guys we just lost our supposed center of the future.
TheWileyVet
Starter
Anyone else think we should run the ball more? Our offense gets so stagnant sometimes when we settle into our halfcourt sets. We have a young team, why not let em push the break a little more? Heck, at the very least it would be more entertaining to watch
N
Nikefutbolero
Guest
Its stagnant because Tyreke dribbles, dribbles, dribbles, and the whole time only looking for his shot. He makes his move and when he sees he has no shot he passes.
FaStRmAn
Starter
Where are we last year to this year???
Honestly I believe that Westphal is doing exactly what he has planned to do all along. The reason players are not getting the playing time they want is because PW needs to see ALL the players play. He needs to see ALL the young players play against different types of players on other teams. He needs to see how different lineups work or dont work. I really dont think winning is very high on the priority list, and I think that Petrie is totally on board with this. They have a system that they are using to find out who is worth a crap and who isn't. He keeps bringing in players to play. To give them the maximum chance to show what they have got. That makes some players who ASSUME that they are starters think they are getting a raw deal. But if they are Starters, they should play hard enough to stay in the game. And even then, if PW wants to get someone else playing time for player analysis, he will.
I don't think the Kings have totally abandoned wining. But I have heard PW talk about balancing wining with young player analysis. If you expect him to go to a 7 or 8 man rotation and try to win every night, I doubt that is going to happen. He is playing a lot of players significant minutes. I would like to see more wins just as much as the next guy, but I don't think those wins are coming until next season. I think after the analysis is done this season, he will know who does and doesn't fit his system. In fact, before the end of this year, he should start getting a better idea. They will know what they do and do not need in a free agent or draft pick. And then the rotation will become more settled. Maybe never fully settled, but more so than during this rebuilding period. This was a 17 win team last year. They needed to do something drastic to change the system and the culture. They had to jettison certain players and become more flexible to make the necessary changes this summer. They are in the process of doing it. I just hope it works. Because if it doesn't, we will have sat through a lot of really bad basketball for nothing. I believe that this is exactly Paul Westphal's plan in action. Like it or not.
Honestly I believe that Westphal is doing exactly what he has planned to do all along. The reason players are not getting the playing time they want is because PW needs to see ALL the players play. He needs to see ALL the young players play against different types of players on other teams. He needs to see how different lineups work or dont work. I really dont think winning is very high on the priority list, and I think that Petrie is totally on board with this. They have a system that they are using to find out who is worth a crap and who isn't. He keeps bringing in players to play. To give them the maximum chance to show what they have got. That makes some players who ASSUME that they are starters think they are getting a raw deal. But if they are Starters, they should play hard enough to stay in the game. And even then, if PW wants to get someone else playing time for player analysis, he will.
I don't think the Kings have totally abandoned wining. But I have heard PW talk about balancing wining with young player analysis. If you expect him to go to a 7 or 8 man rotation and try to win every night, I doubt that is going to happen. He is playing a lot of players significant minutes. I would like to see more wins just as much as the next guy, but I don't think those wins are coming until next season. I think after the analysis is done this season, he will know who does and doesn't fit his system. In fact, before the end of this year, he should start getting a better idea. They will know what they do and do not need in a free agent or draft pick. And then the rotation will become more settled. Maybe never fully settled, but more so than during this rebuilding period. This was a 17 win team last year. They needed to do something drastic to change the system and the culture. They had to jettison certain players and become more flexible to make the necessary changes this summer. They are in the process of doing it. I just hope it works. Because if it doesn't, we will have sat through a lot of really bad basketball for nothing. I believe that this is exactly Paul Westphal's plan in action. Like it or not.
Last edited:
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
So those thirteen assists happened by accident?
N
Nikefutbolero
Guest
He's averaging 13 assists per game?
Well in Feb he's averaging close to 8... If he can average 8 assists while only looking for his shot like you said then hey I'm cool with it. In case you haven't realised up to now, that's our game plan. Let Evans try to drive and then find the open man when they double team him. The only real argument you have is that he doesn't make the pass on the pick and roll. That's about it.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Well I've watched every game. Reke's the best PG we have. *waits for Beno fans to bash him*
But ... our offense was the same way the past couple of years with Beno at PG. So Beno dribbles and dribbles and looks only for his shot? An idiot could see that Tyreke doesn't play the same way as Nash does, our offense certainly doesn't seem very fluid at times. But up to recently we were one of the best scoring teams in the league, and if you ask me the only thing that has brought our scoring down is guys missing open shots. Earlier in the season Casspi couldn't miss an open 3 if you paid him to. Earlier in the season there was no such thing as a Casspi airball. now it happens every game. And Casspi isn't the only one who can't hit open shots these days...
The lack of "fluidity" in our offense is not solely on Evans, it's on the whole team as well as the coaching staff for the sets that they implement. As I said, Evans needs to get better at passing in pick and roll or pick and pop situations, and that will make everything a whole lot better.
Similar threads
