[PHX/SAS] -- series discussion (merged)

[VF21]

It will be very interesting to see how Amare and Diaw's suspensions work out. If the League doesn't buy the Suns story that Amare was just on his way to the scorer's table, (and I doubt they will), I almost have to admire Horry's cheap shot. Sure, he gets suspended, but he manages to knock out 2 superior players from the Suns (well, one superior player) by betting on team/mob stupidity.

The trouble with the League following the letter of the law here, is that other people might figure this strategy out. You might get people trying to start fights every losing game in the attempt to provoke stupid reactions from the bench. Eventually players on the bench would have to get smarter. But how many cheap shots would take place while they learn?

This is gonna be a tough one. I think Horry should be suspended for one game simply for the cheap shot.

While the "letter of the law" says any players leaving the immediate vicinity of the bench during an altercation must be suspended, there is some wiggle room -

Was there actually an altercation taking place when Amare and Boris headed towards Steve?

What exactly constitutes the "immediate vicinity of the bench"?

Regardless of the eventual decision by the league, this has now tainted this series and it's a shame because this has been a fantastic matchup.

My personal feeling is things are rapidly getting out of control and "zero tolerance" rules aren't going to make them better, especially if they end up penalizing the wrong team.

I find it disturbing that a number of Spurs fans are calling for Amare and Diaw's suspension while still managing to protest the Flagrant 1 assessed to Bowen.

This could end up really badly...

 

[Sluggah]

i will be VERY disappointed with the league if amare and diaw are suspended.

this has been a great series. i don't want it to be determined by an underhanded cheap shot.

by "big shot" horry nonetheless.

 

[Bricklayer]

Zero tolerance rules, in whatever field, are always going to be real shaky about getting the justice right. They are in effect "stupid" laws intentionally divested of human judgment.

That said, one of their advantages is that you can't (or at least shouldn't be able to) complain about bias in their enforcement. If you do x, y happens. Sucks for the Suns, but it was entirely within their power to avoid it. And they can't very claim a conspiracy or anything for running afoul of an automatic rule where there is no discretion. And if that does happen, I can only assume that Horry's suspension will be more or less automatic -- now that WOULD look bad for the two Suns to get suspended and Horry not -- and that's someplace where the league still has discretion. Still, quite obviously Amare/Diaw >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Horry. Be a real shame if the Spurs choked away the series, and then the Suns gave it right back to them by just being foolish.

 

[BMiller52]

Yeah but Amare and Diaw were just going over to see if their teammate was okay. And Amare didn't even get that far, he stopped after he got right out on the court and a Suns assistant held him back. He probably was going to check in during the next stoppage of play though so if the league wants to use that as wiggle room...

But Horry needs to be suspended. That wasn't a hard foul, that was an attack on Nash. He tried to injure somebody which is different than a frustration foul or a hard foul like the one Richardson gave to Okur when Okur was going to dunk on them with like a minute left and the victory wrapped up. You can't just go bodychecking people into the scorer's table. Not to mention that when Horry and Bell got into it you could see Horry elbow Bell in the neck.

NBA better not suspend Amare though. If they do then I will be really mad. That's just suspending Amare for Horry trying to hurt his teammate. And Amare was just going over there to see if his buddy was okay. Atleast that's how it looked to me. You can't reward Horry for doing something like that... and even if you suspend him, by suspending Amare you are rewarding him for trying to injure someone. That'd be BS.

 

[Bricklayer]

Its a black and white rule -- what you are doing is asking for a judgment call. Unfortunately, there is no judgment call allowed -- doesn't matter whether you are seeing if your teammate is ok, whether you are spoiling for a fight, or whether Scarlett Johansen is nude and beckoning from halfcourt -- you leave the bench, you get suspended. Been that way for a long time -- ever since those ugly Knicks/Heat brawls. There is no judgment call. You can't even leave if Horry was busy beating Nash to a pulp, let alone just after a knockdown.

The Amare checking in thing is really the best/only hope. Basically maybe a way for the league to plausibly sidestep its own rule. But they absolutely can and will not overrule it because "its not fair". That was the whole point in making it mandatory int he first place -- no equivocation. Best that can be hoped for is because "its not fair" maybe they look for some sneaky backdoor way to avoid it, if such even exists.

 

[BMiller52]

Eh Stern was a lawyer before. He should be able to figure something out.

btw found this on another board:

In Monday's surprise ruling, the NBA did not suspend any members of the Kings for leaving the bench during the brawl.

...

"Our rule regarding an automatic suspension for players leaving the bench was not intended to apply in a highly unusual situation like this one, where an altercation occurs in an access tunnel or hallway,'' NBA vice president Stu Jackson said. "In this circumstance, our judgment was that the players who left the bench were attempting to break up the fight and did not escalate the altercation.''

...

"This is not a new precedent at all,'' Jackson said in a conference call with reporters. "In the end we felt this case was very unusual, a special case.''

I think it was from when Doug got in a fight with Rick Fox but I'm not sure.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Its a black and white rule -- what you are doing is asking for a judgment call. Unfortunately, there is no judgment call allowed -- doesn't matter whether you are seeing if your teammate is ok, whether you are spoiling for a fight, or whether Scarlett Johansen is nude and beckoning from halfcourt -- you leave the bench, you get suspended. Been that way for a long time -- ever since those ugly Knicks/Heat brawls. There is no judgment call. You can't even leave if Horry was busy beating Nash to a pulp, let alone just after a knockdown.

You want to talk about a suspension that I'd take with a smile on my face...

I'm not even convinced that Stoudemire has a case; after all, assistant coaches don't usually hold you back if you're just going to "check in." Of course, I'm among the minority on this board that want the Spurs to win, so I may be biased.

 

[reyes13]

How come nobody's kicked Bowen's *** yet? It's ridiculous how he continues to get away with all this.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Who's gonna do it? Those guys are all tall, and some of them talk tough, but I'd be astonished if there's four guys in the entire league that can actually fight.

 

[acisking]

Who's gonna do it? Those guys are all tall, and some of them talk tough, but I'd be astonished if there's four guys in the entire league that can actually fight.

I don't know about you, but even the smallest of NBA players could probably beat the crap out of me. Even Earl Boykins benches 3 times my body weight.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

If a guy's bigger than me and can fight, he'll probably beat me in a fight. But I'm no pushover; when I was a junior enlisted in the Navy, I used to get into fights all the time in the berthing, or at the e-club, or in bars... or pretty much anywhere. I've taken out plenty of guys that were bigger than me and, in my experience, it doesn't matter how big or how strong a guy is if he can't fight.

I'm just a hair under six feet tall, and can barely push three-fifty. But I know how to fight. Even if somebody is six-seven or six-eight, and can push four hundred plus, if they don't know how to fight, they they're not likely to beat somebody that does, and is determined to hurt them, even if that somebody is significantly smaller. That's all I'm saying... these guys are huge, and because of their size, most of them have probably never been in a real fight in their life; it's the natural inclination of most people to avoid fights with people bigger than them, and if you grow up with most people being afraid of you because of your size, you probably don't bother learning how to actually fight or defend yourself.

If another NBA player went after Bruce Bowen, it would probably just look like one of those silly slap fights that you usually see when players "brawl."

 

[Jerryaki]

Its a black and white rule -- what you are doing is asking for a judgment call. Unfortunately, there is no judgment call allowed -- doesn't matter whether you are seeing if your teammate is ok, whether you are spoiling for a fight, or whether Scarlett Johansen is nude and beckoning from halfcourt -- you leave the bench, you get suspended. Been that way for a long time -- ever since those ugly Knicks/Heat brawls. There is no judgment call. You can't even leave if Horry was busy beating Nash to a pulp, let alone just after a knockdown.

nash pointed out in the postgame interview that benchers technically leave the bench and enter the court when they are cheering for a really good play. thought it was a good point on technicality vs. spirit of the rule.

 

[GoGoGadget]

You want to talk about a suspension that I'd take with a smile on my face...

Uh... ditto.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

nash pointed out in the postgame interview that benchers technically leave the bench and enter the court when they are cheering for a really good play. thought it was a good point on technicality vs. spirit of the rule.

Well, I haven't read it recently, but I think that there's a criteria, such as you can't go beyond "x" distance traveling laterally, or "y" distance traveling collaterally. I think, for example, you have to walk past the hashmark moving laterally, or beyond some unknown (to me, but surely defined somewhere) distance from the the bench if moving collaterally.

Uh... ditto.

G³, you fascinate me sometimes...

 

[vladetomiller]

I guess Horry should get suspended

They might let Amare go free cos they cant afford to not have amare in the game, they will fix that side

Diaw will be suspended unless stu pulls up another fast one like what they explained in the lakers kings brawl in the tunnel.

I think the refs did not handle the game well in the 4th quarter and they are to be blamed for all this nonsense, raja bell was allowed to take cheap shots in the game as well and no one commented about it or a foul wasnt even called. It was a blatant attempt by the refs in the 4th quarter.

1. Oberto sets the screen, bell runs into him with his elbows raised knocking oberto off his feet, sure he was flopping a bit but why did bell have his elbows raised to the neck level of the other player.

2. Spurs were called for a bunch of moving screens which they were allowed to all season and all game until 4th quarter.

3. The nash to bell sequence for bell layup. Nash comes full speed down the court to the three point line, there is an attempt for screen from bell, parker goes under the screen so a screen doesnt actually happen. Nash hands over the ball to bell in full speed and body checks ginobili for a screen and bell goes for a layup. Now manu didnt flop like he usualls does to get an offensive foul but how can you set a screen coming in at full speed and initiate a contact with the defender and take him out. Weird play, I dont think i have seen that ever before.

That is where the frustration sets in for the spurs, suns are talking about spurs being dirty but other than bowen i didnt see dirty play from suns. But what nash did is a dirty play that was designed and executed. So many times when nash goes for a layup his knees and legs are extended kicking into the defender where does that come from. nash hooks the defender many a times on his baseline dribbles, oh well on and on I can go

I dont think horry will get more than a game, raja bell for a clothesline got only one game and this wasnt as bad and horry might even pull a defense saying he was just checking the progress and didnt mean to body check and that it was just nash's speed that brought about that incident.

It will set the tone for the next game, nash will be afraid of the stars he might see and that really changes ones game

 

[Superman]

nash pointed out in the postgame interview that benchers technically leave the bench and enter the court when they are cheering for a really good play. thought it was a good point on technicality vs. spirit of the rule.

I believe the rule applies specifically to when there is a fight/altercation on the court. Not cheering for your team.

 

[vladetomiller]

I don't know about you, but even the smallest of NBA players could probably beat the crap out of me. Even Earl Boykins benches 3 times my body weight.

Have you seen a cornered cat, we might be 50 times their weight and size but they really frighten you in that stage. When it comes to a fight it all matters about who wants it more and size doesnt matter. The most important one is who throws the first punch, if it is not expected then it really puts the other guy in a huge disadvantage and startles the person basically

 

[Jerryaki]

I believe the rule applies specifically to when there is a fight/altercation on the court. Not cheering for your team.

the players always seem to not mention that in their soundbites.

according to NBA.com, it's "you can't leave the bench area during a fight" which then opens up the wiggle room because "bench area" is a little nebulous, and last night certainly wasn't a "fight."

 

[Superman]

the players always seem to not mention that in their soundbites.

according to NBA.com, it's "you can't leave the bench area during a fight" which then opens up the wiggle room because "bench area" is a little nebulous, and last night certainly wasn't a "fight."

Either way, it doesn't apply to cheering for your team. Sounds like Nash was scrambling to find a way to defend his teammates to the media.

I don't think they should be suspended, but the whole "cheering for your team" argument won't hold water.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

according to NBA.com, it's "you can't leave the bench area during a fight" which then opens up the wiggle room because "bench area" is a little nebulous, and last night certainly wasn't a "fight."

That could be the out right there, there was shoving but no fists or even slapping that I saw (which was only the ESPN highlights). If they say the rule only applies during a fight but maintain the ability to define what a "fight" is and isn't they have pretty good cover.

 

[Jerryaki]

Either way, it doesn't apply to cheering for your team. Sounds like Nash was scrambling to find a way to defend his teammates to the media.

I don't think they should be suspended, but the whole "cheering for your team" argument won't hold water.

i think it was just a knee-jerk reaction to a reporter pointing to the iron-cladness of the rule.

joe schmoe reporter: the rule clearly states you can't leave the bench!
nash: we leave the bench when we cheer.
JSR: well...you can't leave the bench when there is a fight!
nash: that wasn't a fight.

probably played out something like that.

 

[GoGoGadget]

G³, you fascinate me sometimes...

Only sometimes?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Sorry, my dear; I was much more sensitive to that sort of thing in my twenties... These days, a comment like that only tends to get a raised eyebrow from me.

 

[Kingster]

i bet horry gets suspended

however, amare and diaw might also get suspended for leaving the bench

what a pathetic finish to the game for the spurs. now they have to win another game in phoenix... i'm pissed off

For once, I wish the league would get it right. Horry was the instigator. More importantly, as a member of the Spurs, you could say the Spurs were the instigators. So, if Amare and Diaw get suspended it's beyond ridiculous because Horry and the Spurs would have come out way ahead in this deal, even though it was Horry who gave the forearm to Nash. This rule is beyond the pail. It's like having a law that anybody that looks at a car wreck is automatically fined. Everybody has the knee-jerk reaction to do it, just like a player has a knee-jerk reaction to come on the floor. But the league doesn't seem to comprehend human behavior. And they don't seem to comprehend the "grey" in anything. For them, it's black and white. They want robots out there.

 

[Jerryaki]

nash's take:

"First of all, that would be terrible if that silly play at the end of the game, when the game is really over, causes a detriment to the rest of the series," he said. "Second of all, there wasn't a fight. It wasn't like guys left the bench to enter the fight. So I don't see what, in the big picture, the deal is. If you want to be technical about it, guys are on the court the whole game, cheering at one time or another, and they're over the (end) line. If someone's not throwing a punch or someone doesn't run out there to enter a fight, I think it's a moot point."

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-24-66/Flagrant-Fouls--Leaving-the-Bench--and-Suspensions.html

 

[quick dog]

I have always believed that Popovich incourages bench players to goad opposing starters into technical fouls and suspensions. The sequence of events in the Phoenix series may be random, but I doubt it.

Bowen kicked Amare in the Achilles heal area of his left leg.

Nash received a head-butt and bad cut to the bridge of the nose that may have cost Phoenix a close game.

Bowen kneed Nash in the groin.

Continued chippy play.

Horry checked Nash into the scoring table. Amare and Diaw will likely be suspended for the fifth game for taking a few steps onto the court.

I think Popovich is behind the whole thing. The Spurs are exhibiting some very weasle-like behavior. I don't believe in luck and coincidences.

 

[GoGoGadget]

Sorry, my dear; I was much more sensitive to that sort of thing in my twenties... These days, a comment like that only tends to get a raised eyebrow from me.

Meh.

I'd be worried if it did more than that, frankly.

 

[VF21]

I have always believed that Popovich incourages bench players to goad opposing starters into technical fouls and suspensions. The sequence of events in the Phoenix series may be random, but I doubt it.

Bowen kicked Amare in the Achilles heal area of his left leg.

Nash received a head-butt and bad cut to the bridge of the nose that may have cost Phoenix a close game.

Bowen kneed Nash in the groin.

Continued chippy play.

Horry checked Nash into the scoring table. Amare and Diaw will likely be suspended for the fifth game for taking a few steps onto the court.

I think Popovich is behind the whole thing. The Spurs are exhibiting some very weasle-like behavior. I don't believe in luck and coincidences.

While I don't know if Pop actually encourages the behavior, I can certainly agree that he does seem to condone it.

This has been a terrific series so far. I certainly hope the league can find a way to minimize collateral damage and let the two teams continue to play. I'm curious to see who will officiate at the next meeting.

 

[piksi]

While I don't know if Pop actually encourages the behavior, I can certainly agree that he does seem to condone it.

This has been a terrific series so far. I certainly hope the league can find a way to minimize collateral damage and let the two teams continue to play. I'm curious to see who will officiate at the next meeting.

An old fart that lost a race to Barkley

 

[jon e]

finally some old school basketball. horry sent the message and amare and diaw unwisely went after it. amare has absolutely no case, he Runs around the assistant coaches to help nash after standing on the sideline with a towel around his neck. maybe if he went to college, he would have been able to understand that during an altercation you cannot go on the floor!