[PHX/SAS] -- series discussion (merged)

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

While it's true the Suns could have avoided the whole thing by not losing their heads when Nash was sent sprawling into the scorer's table, I think the bigger picture is that the Suns have been getting thoroughly jobbed during this series...

I disagree with this sentiment; I think that the officiating has been equally questionable for both sides. The first two games, the calls were about equal, in Game 3, the officiating seemed to be really biased towards the Spurs, and in Game 4, the officiating seemed to be really biased towards the Suns. I don't get any sense that the Suns are getting "jobbed."

What I do feel is that there is precedent for officials allowing games to be more physical in the playoffs than in the regular season, and that's going to inherently favor the Spurs, because they're a physical team. But that's not a product of the Suns being jobbed, that's a product of the Suns being soft.

 

[sloter]

While it's true the Suns could have avoided the whole thing by not losing their heads when Nash was sent sprawling into the scorer's table, I think the bigger picture is that the Suns have been getting thoroughly jobbed during this series. At the point where Nash was on the floor from a really dirty cheap shot, I think almost every player in the league would have responded the same way. Enough is enough... isn't it?

I absolutely agree. Suns were getting mugged, especially Nash... NBA ruined this series by allowing the Spurs to play dirty throughout and provoke the Suns (although Amare had his own share of dumb decisions and plays in this series as well).

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

What I do feel is that there is precedent for officials allowing games to be more physical in the playoffs than in the regular season, and that's going to inherently favor the Spurs, because they're a physical team. But that's not a product of the Suns being jobbed, that's a product of the Suns being soft.

I think its a product of the Spurs having mediocre freethrow skills.

On the plus side for the Suns, with Horry gone, the Spurs now sum to a negative clutch factor. As long as the Suns can keep it close, the Spurs oughta choke it away.

 

[Jerryaki]

stu jackson: "This is a very unfortunate circumstance," Jackson said during a conference call. "No one here at the league office wants to suspend players any game, much less a pivotal game in the second round of a playoff series. But the rule, however, is the rule, and we intend to apply it consistently."

argh! that just chaps my ***. your goal shouldn't be to apply a rule consistently, it should be to mete out justice consistently. argh!

 

[Bricklayer]

No its really not in this case. Its like the rush of three strikes laws aroudn the country -- the whole point is to eliminate discretion. A dubious goal at best, but once its done, its done. And you can't cheat on it.

But again, this is NOT a secret rule, nor is it an impossibe one to follow. All you have to do is keep your *** parked and nothing happens. The Suns can only play the victim so far here -- it was THEIR actions, not the Spurs' that got them suspended.

 

[VF21]

To be fair, I don't think the Suns team is playing victim. I think it's fans who would prefer to NOT see the Spurs get away with it (at least in my case) who are expressing dissatisfaction with the whole mess. It's not right that the team instigating the whole mess ends up gaining a distinct advantage in a close series.

 

[Superman]

I absolutely agree. Suns were getting mugged, especially Nash... NBA ruined this series by allowing the Spurs to play dirty throughout and provoke the Suns (although Amare had his own share of dumb decisions and plays in this series as well).

No one is getting mugged. If anything, there are too many calls restricting physical play in this series. The Spurs are bigger and play more physical basketball than the Suns, so it may look like they're getting beat up, but the fact is that any disparity comes from too many fouls getting called on the Suns, not too few on the Spurs.

 

[Variant]

Bah. Too bad Amare and Diaw couldn't control themselves. They let a dirty player mess up this series now.

Maybe the Suns will step it up, but the Spurs have been given a gift here. The biggest losers? The fans. I am disappointed.

 

[sloter]

No one is getting mugged. If anything, there are too many calls restricting physical play in this series. The Spurs are bigger and play more physical basketball than the Suns, so it may look like they're getting beat up, but the fact is that any disparity comes from too many fouls getting called on the Suns, not too few on the Spurs.

Bruce Bowen dangerous kicks, non-fouls on Duncan (whenever there is another Spurs player near him and the foul occurs, it is never called on Duncan), the Spurs consistently reaching in and slapping Steve Nash and non of this stuff gets called. I had a feeling that Robert Horry foul wouldn't have been called a flagrant one had the Suns not jumped.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Bruce Bowen dangerous kicks, non-fouls on Duncan (whenever there is another Spurs player near him and the foul occurs, it is never called on Duncan), the Spurs consistently reaching in and slapping Steve Nash and non of this stuff gets called. I had a feeling that Robert Horry foul wouldn't have been called a flagrant one had the Suns not jumped.

i'm shocked that bowen didn't get suspended for his actions. how can you NOT suspend a guy for dirty play. suns shoulda stayed on the bench but cmon how can the league ignore bruce "lee" bowen's dirty play. suns are getting jobbed-

 

[pdxKingsFan]

To be fair, I don't think the Suns team is playing victim. I think it's fans who would prefer to NOT see the Spurs get away with it (at least in my case) who are expressing dissatisfaction with the whole mess. It's not right that the team instigating the whole mess ends up gaining a distinct advantage in a close series.

I agree, and let's be clear - this is NOT the Heat-NY series that set off this rule and the incident itself was NOT a black-eye incident for the league. There was no fight and if no suspensions on either side had been handed down I suspect nobody would remember this even happened.

On the other hand the appearance of rewarding a team for what it appears to be deliberate attempts to hurt a player will suffer fan backlash. I think the NBA had an easy out since no fists were thrown in ruling this a non-fight and saying the automatic suspensions do not apply. Or they could have suspended Diaw for one game and Horry for the series and appeared equitable using the "Amare was checking into the game" excuse and given off an appearance of equity and not tainted the end result of the series. But at a minimum Horry's suspension absolutely must exceed the result of the Suns punishment which in my eyes means a 3 game suspension. I'd also like to see Popovich fined - which is basically a PR move and an admission of guilt that they should have stepped in after the Bowen incident. I'm sorry but appearances do matter and this appears like a complete coup for the Spurs.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

In a way though, everyone loses, including the Spurs. In a match between the two teams at full strength, they're tied up 2-2. But now with a huge advantage given to the Spurs on a technicality, are people really going to point to round 2 2007 and say "The Spurs were the better team" even if they do win it?

Then again... I don't think the Spurs care who's better, they just want to win, so they probably wouldn't complain too much.

 

[mdme]

It's not right that the team instigating the whole mess ends up gaining a distinct advantage in a close series.

This is the bottom line.

 

[nbrans]

NBA wants San Antonio to beat the Suns (also Amare/Diaw suspended)

Utter, total crap:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2007/news/story?id=2871615

NBA suspends Stoudemire, Diaw for leaving bench
The pain from Robert Horry's hockey-style check on Steve Nash was felt on the day after by the Phoenix Suns.

The Suns' hopes for a lenient ruling from the league office faded quickly Tuesday night, when it was announced that Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw would indeed receive one-game suspensions for leaving "the immediate vicinity of their bench" during the altercation that followed Horry's hit on Nash in the final minute of a series-tying Game 4 victory in San Antonio.

Horry received a two-game suspension from the league for his flagrant foul on Nash and for striking Raja Bell above the shoulders in the subsequent fracas. The Suns, meanwhile, have lost two-thirds of the trio they use to guard Spurs star Tim Duncan after the NBA rejected their claims that the scuffling seen late Monday wasn't a full-blown fight and that Stoudemire and Diaw never got close to it anyway.

Nash, reached by phone Tuesday night, told ESPN.com that he was too "disgusted" to comment. Spurs officials declined comment.

Immediately after the incident Monday night, Nash had implored league officials to consider the circumstances surrounding Horry's foul, saying at a post-game news conference: "That would be terrible if that silly play at the end of a game, when the game is really over, if that causes a detriment to the rest of the series. That would be ridiculous."

Spurs coach Gregg Popovich told The Associated Press that he didn't even think Horry's foul on Nash was that bad.

"It was just an end-of-game foul and Steve fell down," Popovich said before the penalties were announced. "I didn't think it was such a big deal."

But NBA executive vice president of basketball operations Stu Jackson told reporters in a conference call after announcing the suspensions that the league's longstanding policy of invoking its leave-the-bench rule without considering additional factors made the Suns' suspensions automatic.

"A precedent wasn't necessary here," Jackson said. "The rule with respect to leaving the bench area during an altercation is very clear.

"Historically, if you break it, you will get suspended, regardless of what the circumstances are."

Jackson added that Stoudemire and Diaw, in the league's estimation, were "about 20 to 25 feet away from their seats" and headed "towards the altercation" before Suns assistant coaches scrambled them back to the bench.

The Suns countered by saying that Duncan and Bruce Bowen were guilty of a similar leaving-the-bench offense in Game 4's first half when San Antonio's Francisco Elson fell on the Suns' James Jones after a dunk. That play was also reviewed, but Jackson -- while conceding that Duncan "should not have been on the playing court" -- said that the league determined there was "no cause for the suspension rule" to be applied because the Elson-Jones tangle was not deemed to be an altercation.
That will likely only fuel Phoenix's series-long contention that the Spurs have been receiving favorable treatment from the league. Bowen was accused of intentionally kicking Stoudemire in Game 2 and intentionally kneeing Nash in the groin in Game 3. Apart from the foul on Nash being upgraded to a flagrant foul, Bowen went unpunished in both instances.
Speaking specifically about the Horry-Nash incident, Suns owner Robert Sarver told reporters in Phoenix on Tuesday night: "The way this worked out for us, it was, I believe, extremely unfair. . . . The team that plays dirty should not be rewarded and the team that plays fair should not be penalized."

Sarver added that the "first thing on my agenda" for next season will be making a push at ownership level to have the leave-the-bench rule re-examined. Sarver also said that NBA commissioner David Stern has canceled a schedule appearance in Phoenix for Wednesday night's Game 5.
Jackson said the league would consider re-evaluating the policy for next season "if a change is warranted" but insisted that "right now that line is very clear."

"The rule is the rule," Jackson said.

"It's not a matter of fairness. It's a matter of correctness."

Jackson added: "The purpose of the rule is to prevent the escalation of these types of incidents and in turn protect the health and safety of our players and diminish the chance of serious injury [for] our players."

All three of the suspended players, according to Jackson, have the right to appeal their suspensions at the end of the season to perhaps retrieve lost salary, but there is no appeal process that could restore eligibility in time for Wednesday's tipoff.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I agree, and let's be clear - this is NOT the Heat-NY series that set off this rule and the incident itself was NOT a black-eye incident for the league...

The rule was created as a result of the skrimish between the Suns and the Knicks, not the Knicks and the Heat.

 

[bibbyweb]

I think Horry just won the Spurs the series. I have a feeling that the whole thing was planned, just like a drawn play and they just suckered the Suns in.

 

[vj9999]

That's it. I'm not getting League Pass next year. Boycott NBA

Honestly though, if that was Parker instead of Nash and Duncan instead of Stoudemire, I can bet there would have been a different outcome and definition of altercation.

 

[bibbyweb]

Half a dozen other Suns didn't. And no, some guys use their heads. Then some guys enter the league at age 18 or whatever and can't even spell head. Just unfortunate the Suns had a couple of those waiting to react. Everone would react to that play, but then you did the big stupid and start marching out on the court toward the fracas...you just can't, and everyone knows you can't. You actually owe it to your team to not.

And it really is too bad. Kurt Thomas is going to have to play a whale of a game, and somehow stay out of foul trouble (something he's never been good at at all) or the advantage will be back to the Spurs.

Or they just have to devise some way to get Duncan out of the game.

 

[Bricklayer]

Anyone who thinks the NBA would rather have the Spurs advance than the Suns advance is just not thinking this through. I mean really. There is absolutely NO comparison in the entertainment factor, audience interest, and hence sponsor money. For years the theory, not terribly supported but still there, was that the NBA intentionally did NOT want the Spurs to win. The reason? They are boring, and their ratings suck.

 

[bibbyweb]

Anyone who thinks the NBA would rather have the Spurs advance than the Suns advance is just not thinking this through. I mean really. There is absolutely NO comparison in the entertainment factor, audience interest, and hence sponsor money. For years the theory, not terribly supported but still there, was that the NBA intentionally did NOT want the Spurs to win. The reason? They are boring, and their ratings suck.

The decisions in the series do not support your theory

 

[Kingzrool]

Anyone who thinks the NBA would rather have the Spurs advance than the Suns advance is just not thinking this through.

I am actually going to agree with Brick on this one point.

I do not think that any of this amounts to anymore than flagerant and unacceptable inconsistency in the reffing of the Playoffs this season.

Suns will still win and take it all!

 

[acisking]

The rule was created as a result of the skrimish between the Suns and the Knicks, not the Knicks and the Heat.

What are you talking about? The rule was in place when several Knicks were suspended in their infamous fight with the Miami Heat in the mid-late 90s.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

The rule was created as a result of the skrimish between the Suns and the Knicks, not the Knicks and the Heat.

Sorry, by set off I just meant invoked. Obviously they can't/don't write new rules overnight - I referenced that series because everyone, even casual fans, knew that rule was for real when the NBA handed down those suspensions (and to a lesser extent because a lot of people felt the wrong team was punished). But that was an obvious brawl/fight situation that seriously put a black eye on the league during a time when the NHL was publically trying to clean up its image and the NBA was having regular fights. Last night was more like a heated argument which gave the NBA an apparent out.

And the non-suspension of Duncan and Bowen for entering the court seemingly sends the message that when this situation arises its in the opposing teams favor to escalate the situation to make sure suspensions take place.

But I do agree 100% with Brick that the NBA has no reason to help out San Antonio. There are plenty of other reasons for declining ratings but San Antonio emerged as an elite team just as the NBA's ratings started to skid.

 

[Superman]

What are you talking about? The rule was in place when several Knicks were suspended in their infamous fight with the Miami Heat in the mid-late 90s.

Exactly. It wasn't created because of that; it was already in place, as you said.

It was created after an altercation between the Suns and the Knicks.

 

[Superman]

And the non-suspension of Duncan and Bowen for entering the court seemingly sends the message that when this situation arises its in the opposing teams favor to escalate the situation to make sure suspensions take place.

I don't understand why everyone thinks the Spurs are being favored in this series. The Spurs haven't been getting any special treatment this season; in fact, they might even have home court advantage had Joey Crawford not gone Judge Mills Lane on Duncan. If anything, they've gotten the short end of the stick most of this season.

And Tim Duncan got hit with a suspension two or three years ago for "bumping a ref," when it was clear that there was no malice intended. Peja Stojakovic got hit with the same suspension that same year.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I don't understand why everyone thinks the Spurs are being favored in this series. The Spurs haven't been getting any special treatment this season; in fact, they might even have home court advantage had Joey Crawford not gone Judge Mills Lane on Duncan. If anything, they've gotten the short end of the stick most of this season.

Did you read the next sentence I wrote - I don't think they are getting special treatment nor do I think the league would want to give it to them. But saying the rule is an absolute and then Stu Jackson providing a reason for the rule not to apply to Bowen and Duncan DOES imply that had Jones punched/kicked/slapped/shoved Elson while they were on the court they would have been suspended.

 

[Superman]

Did you read the next sentence I wrote - I don't think they are getting special treatment nor do I think the league would want to give it to them. But saying the rule is an absolute and then Stu Jackson providing a reason for the rule not to apply to Bowen and Duncan DOES imply that had Jones punched/kicked/slapped/shoved Elson while they were on the court they would have been suspended.

Got it. Didn't quite get the point at first, but thanks for clearing that up.

 

[nbrans]

Anyone who thinks the NBA would rather have the Spurs advance than the Suns advance is just not thinking this through. I mean really. There is absolutely NO comparison in the entertainment factor, audience interest, and hence sponsor money. For years the theory, not terribly supported but still there, was that the NBA intentionally did NOT want the Spurs to win. The reason? They are boring, and their ratings suck.

I don't know about this. This isn't the Lakers vs. the Spurs or the Knicks vs. Phoenix where it's a big market vs. a small market. Phoenix and San Antonio are comparable in size and I don't know if there's much of a difference in ratings and advertising and all that. It just comes down to a stylistic thing, and there are golden boys (Nash and Duncan) on both sides.

Still, the NBA didn't have to make themselves the story, they knew what the outcry would be, and they decided to make themselves the story. It's idiotic.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't know about this. This isn't the Lakers vs. the Spurs or the Knicks vs. Phoenix where it's a big market vs. a small market. Phoenix and San Antonio are comparable in size and I don't know if there's much of a difference in ratings and advertising and all that. It just comes down to a stylistic thing, and there are golden boys (Nash and Duncan) on both sides.

Still, the NBA didn't have to make themselves the story, they knew what the outcry would be, and they decided to make themselves the story. It's idiotic.

No, the NBA decided to follow the rules. The story comes because people wanted them to bend those rules. And yet would complain bitterly if they bent them under other circumstances.

As for the ratings -- home markets do not matter for national TV playoff matchups. Your ratings come from national, and international appeal. The Spurs were always very poor int hat regrad, and produced two of the lowest rated Finals of modern times in '03 and '05. I do not know the Suns numbers, but I would be willing to bet they have to be right at the very top. They are fun and pretty.

 

[nbrans]

No, the NBA decided to follow the rules. The story comes because people wanted them to bend those rules. And yet would complain bitterly if they bent them under other circumstances.

As for the ratings -- home markets do not matter for national TV playoff matchups. Your ratings come from national, and international appeal. The Spurs were always very poor int hat regrad, and produced two of the lowest rated Finals of modern times in '03 and '05. I do not know the Suns numbers, but I would be willing to bet they have to be right at the very top. They are fun and pretty.

It was a judgment call. It's nowhere near cut and dry. They judged that the event in Game 4 didn't add up to an altercation, they judged that this one did. It's all subjective, and there was plenty of room for interpretation and wiggle room. The interpretation of the rule was stupid, and the justification for the rule is stupid. It's just stupid.

No one on the planet wants Amare and Diaw suspended. So yay rules!! Yay NBA!!