Petrie was scouting Kentucky today

wall and & reke sharing a backcourt? i'm getting dizzy.. they could take turns going to the cup drawing fouls & double teams, causing defenses to collapse, getting open looks for the rest of the guys?
 
Reke/Wall.....If it doesnt work, we have a hell of a trade chip in whoever we let go.

If it does work.....They will DESTROY DESTROY DESTROY the league.

...Doubt we get pick #1 though. It looks like this draft has a couple great prospects in it though. If we pick top 5, I think we'll land another stud. Top 10, a rotation player at the least.
 
KMart23 said:
wall and & reke sharing a backcourt? i'm getting dizzy.. they could take turns going to the cup drawing fouls & double teams, causing defenses to collapse, getting open looks for the rest of the guys?
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You mean like K-Mart and Reke?;)
 
Vlade4GM said:
It really has little to do with pass-first, score-first mentality. I wouldn't suggest Evans and Rubio play together either, and Rubio is as pass-first as they come. It has more to do with how these players operate and they both need the ball to operate, although Wall doesn't need to as much as Evans but that's where he's most effective. Tyreke is very ball dominant, he needs to pound the ball to do his thing. He needs to be paired with a guard that can hit set shots, move off the ball, and pass. If you pair Wall and Evans together, both guards who don't shoot well and need the ball in their hands to be effective, you'll water down both their talents. Wall would end up being the OG actually, since he has the much better quickness and explosiveness to move off the ball.

You'd have to trade one of them for a big eventually or you'd be wasting their value. A backcourt like that is a waste of time and won't get us championships, especially without a real big to kick it in to. They would just end up taking turns going one-on-one, freezing out the other.
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I think Wall's pass-first unselfishness is exactly what would make it work. He'd be the primary offense runner, and its really not hard to picture Tyreke learning to be a post and slash player mostly off the ball. He plays well when Beno runs the offense.

Ginobili/Parker, Pippen/Jordan, Dumars/Thomas/Vinnie, Nixon/Magic, Gus Williams/Dennis Johnson/Fred Brown, Goodrich/West, Monroe/Frazier, Cousy/Sam Jones...how many of these guys "play off the ball"?

I get what youre saying, but I'd bet on two young basketball savants learning to play together before I'd just "know" it can't work.
 
Kingster said:
I was being somewhat facetious when I made the comment. But really, when you think about it, is Petrie going to shrug his shoulders and take Wall without seeing him in person? Petrie is the last one to take everyone else's word about how good a guy is. Also, Turner is the real deal. It's not a slam dunk that Wall is the best player in the draft. If we get the 2nd pick in the draft and are left with Turner, I won't be crying in my sleep, that's for sure.
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He was mostly scouting Cousins. He was a little bit scouting Patterson. He was barely scouting Wall. Everyone knows what Wall can do. Cousins is a lock as a top 5 pick. Its official, Cousins is my guy. 6'11 280 with a game like his can solve the kings problems at the center position instantly.
 
hammystyle said:
I think Wall's pass-first unselfishness is exactly what would make it work. He'd be the primary offense runner, and its really not hard to picture Tyreke learning to be a post and slash player mostly off the ball. He plays well when Beno runs the offense.

Ginobili/Parker, Pippen/Jordan, Dumars/Thomas/Vinnie, Nixon/Magic, Gus Williams/Dennis Johnson/Fred Brown, Goodrich/West, Monroe/Frazier, Cousy/Sam Jones...how many of these guys "play off the ball"?

I get what youre saying, but I'd bet on two young basketball savants learning to play together before I'd just "know" it can't work.
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Suggesting that Evans would eventually have to learn to play off the ball well is actually admitting that you're taking him away from his strengths and sacrificing his game, to incorporate a very similar guard. The payoff just isn't worth the amount of effort it would take to get them to function together, if they ever could.

Tyreke's whole game is centered around him pounding the ball to get to the basket, he needs the ball to be good at getting where he needs to go. He's not going to be anywhere near as good if you take the ball out of his hands. He's really not an explosive enough athlete or a good enough shooter to score quickly. That's why I think if anyone would be OG, it would be Wall.

Don't you think there's a reason why Ginobili doesn't start with Parker? And besides, Ginobili is a good shooter so he can at least be that when Parker has the ball. Parker has a solid mid range jumper too. The Spurs functioned as a defensive oriented team that had a very good post scorer. We're neither defensive oriented nor do we have a post scorer. Wall and Evans would have to sacrifice too much of their games to justify keeping them both on when one could be traded for a more needed player.

Jordan and Pippen were both elite athletes, both of them could move well off the ball and make explosive cuts to the basket. Jordan can shoot too. Also, they were a great defensive team.

Even if you think they would work, backcourts like that just don't have a great history of dominating the league. Evans and Wall's market values would be going to waste playing together when we have a crappy frontcourt and a weak defensive team. Keeping them together would really be just about the FO being afraid of the fan/media backlash of trading one of them.
 
Chupacabra said:
He was mostly scouting Cousins. He was a little bit scouting Patterson. He was barely scouting Wall. Everyone knows what Wall can do. Cousins is a lock as a top 5 pick. Its official, Cousins is my guy. 6'11 280 with a game like his can solve the kings problems at the center position instantly.
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Actually he's not going to solve all the problems. He doesn't play above the rim so on help-D he's not much of a help. He will be able to handle most bigs on defense and score in the post and rebound. That's why I think Kings should acquire both him and Aldrich.
 
I'm just curious. Is there any team out there who might get 2 high picks like (was it Minny) did last year? If that were the case, and we were lucky enough to land the #1 pick (can't see it happening though, but you never really know) is it feasable to trade your #1 pick (a.k.a. Wall) for two high draft picks and maybe other considerations?

I have my doubts about this. Just want to get other's opinions on it.
 
Vlade4GM said:
Suggesting that Evans would eventually have to learn to play off the ball well is actually admitting that you're taking him away from his strengths and sacrificing his game, to incorporate a very similar guard. The payoff just isn't worth the amount of effort it would take to get them to function together, if they ever could.

Tyreke's whole game is centered around him pounding the ball to get to the basket, he needs the ball to be good at getting where he needs to go. He's not going to be anywhere near as good if you take the ball out of his hands. He's really not an explosive enough athlete or a good enough shooter to score quickly. That's why I think if anyone would be OG, it would be Wall.

Don't you think there's a reason why Ginobili doesn't start with Parker? And besides, Ginobili is a good shooter so he can at least be that when Parker has the ball. Parker has a solid mid range jumper too. The Spurs functioned as a defensive oriented team that had a very good post scorer. We're neither defensive oriented nor do we have a post scorer. Wall and Evans would have to sacrifice too much of their games to justify keeping them both on when one could be traded for a more needed player.

Jordan and Pippen were both elite athletes, both of them could move well off the ball and make explosive cuts to the basket. Jordan can shoot too. Also, they were a great defensive team.

Even if you think they would work, backcourts like that just don't have a great history of dominating the league. Evans and Wall's market values would be going to waste playing together when we have a crappy frontcourt and a weak defensive team. Keeping them together would really be just about the FO being afraid of the fan/media backlash of trading one of them.
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Sacrifice is what championship basketball is about. Jordan and Pippen being a good example of two player's games who changed immensely before breaking through.

Say we did lcuk out and draft Wall. You seem to be advocating trading Tyreke for a big because you're 100% positive it won't work. Who you gonna trade him for?

**Edit** If we did land the #1 pick, you could plan to keep Martin and trade Tyreke, which admittedly is a more natural fit. You're still left with trying to get the proper value...I think history would treat that unkindly, like trading away Webber to get Anfernee Hardaway. The rules are in place for guys like Wall and Evans to dominate, having two isn't a bad thing.
 
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Vlade4GM said:
It really has little to do with pass-first, score-first mentality. I wouldn't suggest Evans and Rubio play together either, and Rubio is as pass-first as they come. It has more to do with how these players operate and they both need the ball to operate, although Wall doesn't need to as much as Evans but that's where he's most effective. Tyreke is very ball dominant, he needs to pound the ball to do his thing. He needs to be paired with a guard that can hit set shots, move off the ball, and pass. If you pair Wall and Evans together, both guards who don't shoot well and need the ball in their hands to be effective, you'll water down both their talents. Wall would end up being the OG actually, since he has the much better quickness and explosiveness to move off the ball.

You'd have to trade one of them for a big eventually or you'd be wasting their value. A backcourt like that is a waste of time and won't get us championships, especially without a real big to kick it in to. They would just end up taking turns going one-on-one, freezing out the other.
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In theory I agree with you. Particularly with both players and their level of talent at the moment. But one can't assume that neither player will not become a good shooter. Wall has a good looking stroke and I see no reason he can't become a very good shooter. Tyreke's shot is already looking better. It has a ways to go, but look how young both players are.

I certainly would be willing to give it a try. If nothing else the defense of the other team wouldn't be able to just focus on Tyreke. And if it doesn't work, then you certainly have a valuable piece to trade. We have to remember that were not dealing with robots, but with human beings. What adds up on paper doesn't always add up the same way on the court.
 
Gilles said:
Actually he's not going to solve all the problems. He doesn't play above the rim so on help-D he's not much of a help. He will be able to handle most bigs on defense and score in the post and rebound. That's why I think Kings should acquire both him and Aldrich.
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Now I would certainly go for that, but just exactly how do you accomplish that. We'll be lucky to get one of them. But hey, I'm willing to listen..:)
 
hammystyle said:
Sacrifice is what championship basketball is about. Jordan and Pippen being a good example of two player's games who changed immensely before breaking through.

Say we did lcuk out and draft Wall. You seem to be advocating trading Tyreke for a big because you're 100% positive it won't work. Who you gonna trade him for?

**Edit** If we did land the #1 pick, you could plan to keep Martin and trade Tyreke, which admittedly is a more natural fit. You're still left with trying to get the proper value...I think history would treat that unkindly, like trading away Webber to get Anfernee Hardaway. The rules are in place for guys like Wall and Evans to dominate, having two isn't a bad thing.
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I hate to keep bringing up players that a lot of people didn't see play or in some cases don't even know who they were, but Walt Frazier and Pearl Monroe were both players that needed to handle the ball to be sucessful. No one thought they could play together, but they became one of the best backcourts in the NBA. To take two 19 or 20 year old players and say that this all they're capable of doing is pure nonsense. The moment you get locked into one thought process and lose flexability, the world passes you by. No one ever accomplished anything by saying it couldn't be done.
 
hammystyle said:
Sacrifice is what championship basketball is about. Jordan and Pippen being a good example of two player's games who changed immensely before breaking through.

Say we did lcuk out and draft Wall. You seem to be advocating trading Tyreke for a big because you're 100% positive it won't work. Who you gonna trade him for?

**Edit** If we did land the #1 pick, you could plan to keep Martin and trade Tyreke, which admittedly is a more natural fit. You're still left with trying to get the proper value...I think history would treat that unkindly, like trading away Webber to get Anfernee Hardaway. The rules are in place for guys like Wall and Evans to dominate, having two isn't a bad thing.
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Just for the record, I've never been 100% positive of anything in my entire life.

I'm talking about sacrificing their overall value and impact to the team, it wouldn't add up to what you can likely get in return for one of them. Obviously if you can't find a suitable deal for one of them, then you have to wait but that's kind of beside the point. It really wouldn't be about "proper" value anyways, it's about the most value. Is what you're getting in a trade better value than what you'd get in keeping them? That's all that's relevant.

What was wrong with the Penny/Webber deal?
 
Vlade4GM said:
Just for the record, I've never been 100% positive of anything in my entire life.

I'm talking about sacrificing their overall value and impact to the team, it wouldn't add up to what you can likely get in return for one of them. Obviously if you can't find a suitable deal for one of them, then you have to wait but that's kind of beside the point. It really wouldn't be about "proper" value anyways, it's about the most value. Is what you're getting in a trade better value than what you'd get in keeping them? That's all that's relevant.

What was wrong with the Penny/Webber deal?
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Ok, that's pretty much what I am thinking. That what we'd get for trading them wouldn't be as good as what we'd get for keeping them. In particular there just isn't a young big (other than Dwight Howard) I'd consider trading Tyreke for. Maybe that changes after this draft.

Webber was one of the best PF prospects of all time and they traded away a chance at the best frontcourt in NBA history. I thought it was ididiotic at the time and still do no matter how good Penny played when he was healthy.
 
Tetsujin said:
You mean like K-Mart and Reke?;)
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as much as i love kmart ... he doesn't command double, triple teams or causing the opposing defenses to collapse. have you seen when tyreke gets near the ball? everybody moves towards the paint so he can't get in there. thats respect. if we have wall and reke.. opposing teams will be scratching their heads for an answer. it's going to be sick if one of them has to go to the bench for rest and the other can take over.
 
if we landed the first pick, who says we couldn't move martin for a top 5 pick and draft favors or cousins? heck, that would be the end of the rebuild right there :P

cousins or spencer
jt or favors
donte or omri
wall
reke

as a starting 5...

we'd be pretty much set at all positions and just need them to gain experience.
 
Gary said:
I think if we are in the range of 5-8 we have a great chance at getting Cousins which I assume why Petrie was there.. I was kinda watching two things at once so I guess I missed seeing him.. Hell of a game though! I have a feeling though when it's all said and done we might have Kentucky's Wall, and Cousins going 1 and 2. Cousins is THAT good.. IMO best big in the draft.
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I haven't seen enough of Cousins to have a firm opinion on him, but with the games I've seen, I'd take Turner over Cousins.
 
Vlade4GM said:
Suggesting that Evans would eventually have to learn to play off the ball well is actually admitting that you're taking him away from his strengths and sacrificing his game, to incorporate a very similar guard. The payoff just isn't worth the amount of effort it would take to get them to function together, if they ever could.

Tyreke's whole game is centered around him pounding the ball to get to the basket, he needs the ball to be good at getting where he needs to go. He's not going to be anywhere near as good if you take the ball out of his hands. He's really not an explosive enough athlete or a good enough shooter to score quickly. That's why I think if anyone would be OG, it would be Wall.

Don't you think there's a reason why Ginobili doesn't start with Parker? And besides, Ginobili is a good shooter so he can at least be that when Parker has the ball. Parker has a solid mid range jumper too. The Spurs functioned as a defensive oriented team that had a very good post scorer. We're neither defensive oriented nor do we have a post scorer. Wall and Evans would have to sacrifice too much of their games to justify keeping them both on when one could be traded for a more needed player.

Jordan and Pippen were both elite athletes, both of them could move well off the ball and make explosive cuts to the basket. Jordan can shoot too. Also, they were a great defensive team.

Even if you think they would work, backcourts like that just don't have a great history of dominating the league. Evans and Wall's market values would be going to waste playing together when we have a crappy frontcourt and a weak defensive team. Keeping them together would really be just about the FO being afraid of the fan/media backlash of trading one of them.
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I don't buy this caricature of Tyreke. I think the impression is due to his current role with the current teamates. Tyreke can cut to the basket. Tyreke can post. Tyreke is getting better at his outside shot. He can and does play off of other people. Once he gets the outside shot down, he will do it ALL. The main reason he handles the ball so much on this team is that in order to win with his current cast, he has to dominate the ball. If Tyreke was playing with Tony Parker, he would find a way to be VERY effective, even though Parker was the one doing most of the dribbling. I don't believe that he would be some lost soul in the corner waiting to shoot the occassional shot and make a drive or two to the basket if he was playing with such a player.
 
Kingster said:
I don't buy this caricature of Tyreke. I think the impression is due to his current role with the current teamates. Tyreke can cut to the basket. Tyreke can post. Tyreke is getting better at his outside shot. He can and does play off of other people. Once he gets the outside shot down, he will do it ALL. The main reason he handles the ball so much on this team is that in order to win with his current cast, he has to dominate the ball. If Tyreke was playing with Tony Parker, he would find a way to be VERY effective, even though Parker was the one doing most of the dribbling. I don't believe that he would be some lost soul in the corner waiting to shoot the occassional shot and make a drive or two to the basket if he was playing with such a player.
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And I suppose this was the same issue in Memphis where he was also criticized for frequently overdribbling and dominating possessions.

I like Evans (maybe even like-like). I think he's the closest thing we've had to a potential superstar in long time. But the man-love developing where no one admits that some of his game needs work and development is a little frustrating. I think we've been so starved for something/someone to cheer about that we might be losing perspective.
 
sdballer said:
But the man-love developing where no one admits that some of his game needs work and development is a little frustrating.
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I really haven't seen anyone suggesting that he has nothing to work on, but conversely, I've seen people suggest that what he is right now as a 20 year old rookie is everything that he can be.
 
Kingster said:
I haven't seen enough of Cousins to have a firm opinion on him, but with the games I've seen, I'd take Turner over Cousins.
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Cousins is playing much better now than he was at the beginning of the year. It would be a hard choice for me between Cousins and Turner, because I just love Turner. But we have a great need at center, and it would be tempting to take Cousins. If he keeps his head on straight, he's worth the pick. He's definitely a load inside.
 
sdballer said:
And I suppose this was the same issue in Memphis where he was also criticized for frequently overdribbling and dominating possessions.

I like Evans (maybe even like-like). I think he's the closest thing we've had to a potential superstar in long time. But the man-love developing where no one admits that some of his game needs work and development is a little frustrating. I think we've been so starved for something/someone to cheer about that we might be losing perspective.
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Frankly I just don't get it. I read nothing in Kingster's post that suggested man love, or ignorance of what Tyreke has to work on. At Memphis he did what he knew how to do to help the team win. And that was get to the basket and score. There's no doubt that he's very good at that aspect of the game. But no one has denyed he needs to improve his outside shot. Or that he has to learn how to initiate the offense sooner. There's a lot he has to learn. We all know that, and have stated it over and over again.

Kingster knows basketball as well as anyone else on this fourm, so I think he gets it. But whats the problem with getting excited over the potential of a young player that looks more everyday like he's going to be a star in this league. Just because were excited doesn't mean were ignorant of what he needs to do to get to the next level. The worse thing you could say is that our excitement and recognition of his potential makes it easier for us to digest his mistakes.
 
KMart23 said:
as much as i love kmart ... he doesn't command double, triple teams or causing the opposing defenses to collapse. have you seen when tyreke gets near the ball? everybody moves towards the paint so he can't get in there. thats respect. if we have wall and reke.. opposing teams will be scratching their heads for an answer. it's going to be sick if one of them has to go to the bench for rest and the other can take over.
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I'm not sure why they would be scratching their heads. If Tyreke is driving to the rim and the everyone is waiting for him in the paint, what's the point in having another guy who can drive? Doesn't it make sense to have and outside shooter as the OG? I mean, in order for your theory to work, Tyreke and Wall would need two balls so they can both drive at the same time...
 
Chupacabra said:
Why oh why would you want a front court of Hawes/Cousins instead of Cousins/Thompson?
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Hawes is beginning to show his stuff. I suspect it goes back the other way if he slumps again and Jason comes on, but fact of the matter is I have always thought Hawes had considerably more talent than Jason. Just lots of questions about his brains/guts.
 
sdballer said:
And I suppose this was the same issue in Memphis where he was also criticized for frequently overdribbling and dominating possessions.

I like Evans (maybe even like-like). I think he's the closest thing we've had to a potential superstar in long time. But the man-love developing where no one admits that some of his game needs work and development is a little frustrating. I think we've been so starved for something/someone to cheer about that we might be losing perspective.
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I'm not losing perspective. We're looking at a future superstar. Not today. Give him three years. I've asked this question on this board before: When have you ever seen a guard make this many defensive plays at the end of games as a ROOKIE? And you don't have to even be a 20 year old rookie. Even a 22 year old rookie. If the tapes were available it would really be fun to see if Frazier, Payton, or Jordan made as many bigtime defensive plays as this kid in the first half of their rookie seasons. If this kid gets any better on defense, opposing coaches are going to have to come up with a Tyreke Rule: NO DRIBBLING AROUND TYREKE IN THE LAST TWO MINUTES OF THE GAME.
 
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bajaden said:
Cousins is playing much better now than he was at the beginning of the year. It would be a hard choice for me between Cousins and Turner, because I just love Turner. But we have a great need at center, and it would be tempting to take Cousins. If he keeps his head on straight, he's worth the pick. He's definitely a load inside.
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Wow. He must have really upped his game. I'll have to check him out in a Kentucky game in which he plays against good competition. Turner reminds me so much of Tyreke. I don't want anyone else to get Turner because then they'd have Tyreke on their team too...:)
 
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