Pacers @ Kings Game Thread - 12/2/09

[Showtime]

I think part of that has to do with JT's hustle and effort. Most of the time, JT crashes the boards and serves as our garbage man.

I'm talking in a more broader terms. As far as overall game, I've seen many comments ragging on Hawes, about how he should be traded or relegated to the bench based on the negatives of his game, while glossing over the limitations and negatives of JT.

Hawes on the other hand irritates a lot of fans when he wastes his size by launching of shots from behind the arc.

I can't speak for all the fans, but thats been my main source of criticism for Hawes. If Hawes spent more time banging around in the post rather than shooting jumpers, I wouldn't be so critical.

Most of that has to do with the way Hawes is used in the offense.

Seriously, I can't believe I watch the games just like most people on this forum, and people still come up with comments like these. I mean, it's really staggering to me.

The games are replayed on TV. I would suggest you go watch it again, and count to me the number of times a play was ran for Hawes on the block. And I mean the team brings the ball up, Hawes fights for position knowing he is going to get the ball, gets established, calls for the ball, receives the entry pass, and his teammates space the floor for him to work. Count them. Because I saw that happen about one time that game.

Hawes isn't used that way, because they don't have an offense that heavily promotes post offense. JT and Hawes are used at the high block to set screens, and in Spencer's case, he starts out the halfcourt set coming out to the perimeter knowing a screen will be used instead of knowing the team wants to look from him on the block. He then rolls out to space the floor, giving him the options of becoming a shooting threat or passing threat. That's how he's used. It's not his fault the team chooses not to focus on him as a post threat, and would rather use him as a face up perimeter big man to space the floor.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Seems like a "chicken or egg" argument to me; which came first? Does Hawes not play in the paint because Westphal doesn't run plays for him down there, or does Westphal not run plays for Hawes in the paint because he doesn't play down there?

Clearly, you have to put some of that on the coach, but I think that coaching to what your players demonstrate in practice and/or the games has to do with it, as well. Or do you think that Westphal would still be running high pick and roll plays for his center even if he had Oden or Noah instead of Hawes?

 

[Showtime]

Clearly, you have to put some of that on the coach, but I think that coaching to what your players demonstrate in practice and/or the games has to do with it, as well. Or do you think that Westphal would still be running high pick and roll plays for his center even if he had Oden or Noah instead of Hawes?

The thing is, Hawes has skills that make him somewhat effective in that role, in ADDITION to his post skills, and Oden and Noah don't. Oden and Noah aren't the shooters and passers that Spencer is, so the impact of playing them out that far for the pick and roll doesn't spread the floor as well, and doesn't give the team the same options. I know what they are doing with Hawes, and it makes sense for some reasons, but I don't think Spencer should be blamed for the style of offense. I don't think it's far to call out Spencer for things that are outside his control. He can't walk into Westy's office and demand to be used differently.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

The thing is, Hawes has skills that make him somewhat effective in that role, in ADDITION to his post skills, and Oden and Noah don't. Oden and Noah aren't the shooters and passers that Spencer is, so the impact of playing them out that far for the pick and roll doesn't spread the floor as well, and doesn't give the team the same options. I know what they are doing with Hawes, and it makes sense for some reasons, but I don't think Spencer should be blamed for the style of offense. I don't think it's far to call out Spencer for things that are outside his control. He can't walk into Westy's office and demand to be used differently.

I think it would be fair to say that we are in disagreement as to the extent of what is, and what is not, within Hawes' control.

 

[Showtime]

I think it would be fair to say that we are in disagreement as to the extent of what is, and what is not, within Hawes' control.

So you feel that Hawes has the power to change his role and demand the ball on the block in opposition to the offensive status quo?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

So you feel that Hawes has the power to change his role and demand the ball on the block in opposition to the offensive status quo?

Let's just say that I think that he has more influence than to just suck on it and like it.

 

[Showtime]

Let's just say that I think that he has more influence than to just suck on it and like it.

We don't know, because we aren't in that circle. However, what I see is:

-That this team is winning, without key players. Why try to ask the coach to change something about the offense just to accommodate one player when things seem to be working out ok?

-That this new coach demands performance and challenges them. We have already seen guys played regardless of their paycheck or reputation, as long as they put the team first and play their role. So why push for one's own agenda? It doesn't show a team first attitude.

Plus, Hawes was already benched early on when May was given his spot. He knows his coach has no problems not playing him if he's not with the program.

I'm trying to look at things from another perspective other than my own. I don't see the point in Hawes even pushing for changes when he and the team are in the situations they are in. He has no leverage. It's a rebuilding team that is heading in the right direction with a team first attitude. He's not going to do it to please people on a forum who complain that he's not posting up enough. And most importantly: they are winning when he's doing what he's doing. It might be a totally different situation if they were heading for another 17 win season.

 

[SkinnerBox]

Hawes did HIT 3/4 3pt shots tonight, in addition to making several nice cleanups plays around the basket. He had 7 boards and 2 blocks and a couple nifty assists. Not outstanding, but he is able to play multi-dimensional basketball and contribute in areas that help the team get wins.

The ability to hit the three is not bad, it should just go along with the other things a center should do, like tonight. In a year or two when this is an average night for him, we will be very happy with our starting center.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I'm trying to look at things from another perspective other than my own. I don't see the point in Hawes even pushing for changes when he and the team are in the situations they are in. He has no leverage. It's a rebuilding team that is heading in the right direction with a team first attitude. He's not going to do it to please people on a forum who complain that he's not posting up enough. And most importantly: they are winning when he's doing what he's doing. It might be a totally different situation if they were heading for another 17 win season.

Or, maybe he's not pushing for changes because he likes his role in the offense fine the way it is; with him shooting threes.

The only thing that we agree on is that neither of us are on the inside, and neither of us knows for sure. But what I believe to be true, based on what I've seen of Hawes, is that he'd be perfectly happy to camp out on the three-point line, and avoid contact at all costs. Not a trait that I personally like to see in my centers; I loathe bigs that shoot threes.

 

[gunks]

Jeebus. Tyreke destroys again. The kid is really messing with our chance to get Aldrich.

 

[The Hammer]

Or, maybe he's not pushing for changes because he likes his role in the offense fine the way it is; with him shooting threes.

The only thing that we agree on is that neither of us are on the inside, and neither of us knows for sure. But what I believe to be true, based on what I've seen of Hawes, is that he'd be perfectly happy to camp out on the three-point line, and avoid contact at all costs. Not a trait that I personally like to see in my centers; I loathe bigs that shoot threes.

Whatever your personal tastes in centers Slim, you must acknowledge the benefit that Hawes shooting brings. He is not going to be our banging big. He can work in the post and that is a great skill to have, but with Tyreke now a main focus of our offense, if he can get that three going with some regularity, it is an absolutely huge weapon for opening up the lane not only for Tyreke, but for all of our cutters. This is the Coachie influence. It's also an evolution of the game that the three ball is much more of a threat and tool to open up and spread the defense. I believe Hawes is being coached to develop his outside shot, he could become deadly. Partly because it's a natural skill he has, but it does fit nicely with our offensive style. And let's not try to make him into that longed for big banger/defensive stopper. Yes, he can, and needs to improve his defense, but I think we all acknowledge that for this team to be complete, we need that big banging defensive third bigman. The Pollard if you will. Plus, Hawes works the high pick and roll, and can learn some point center skills a la Vlade, hitting cutters from up top. This was a trait of our last team also. Vlade often had more assists than Bibby. That's Coachie's style of offense, and it's not a relic, it is up to date with the game especially given the use of the three ball these days.

 

[bajaden]

Well, according to some of our fans, Tyreke and Spencer don't deserve a learning curve, while JT is just considered a hustle player so anything else he adds is a bonus.

There's been a lot of criticism of JT as well. How many times have you heard about his creative ability to foul people. Tonight he's criticized for having a horrible rebounding game. The night the went for 24 points and 14 rebounds, he suspossedly didn't play any defense. Most of the criticism of any of the players is somewhat exaggerated.

I think Hawes comes under attack because its his third year in the league. He's a center, and people only see Shaq and Duncan when they think of a center. So thats the standard they set for him. But I think the biggest problem most critical fans have with players, is that their expectations exceed the players ability. And then they blame the player for not living up to them. To some people, if Thompson isn't a star, then he's a failure in their eyes. Does anyone remember Maurice Lucas? A very good player. A power forward who did a little bit of everything. Hit the little 15 foot jumper. Grabbed rebounds and made putbacks. He wasn't a star in the same sense that Bill Walton was. But he did what was needed to help win the game. And he was certainly more than just a complimentary player. So is Thompson, and hopefully, so is Hawes if continues to play well, .

One last note. the Kings rebounded the ball fine in the first half. It was the second half where they got killed. I've been watching basketball a long time, but I can't remember seeing that many long rebounds in one half of basketball. Even the freethrow that Granger missed bounced all the way out beyond the freethrow line. Sometimes the ball just doesn't bounce your way. But hey, if you can still win, you must have done something right.

 

[HighTopKicks]

Seems like a "chicken or egg" argument to me; which came first? Does Hawes not play in the paint because Westphal doesn't run plays for him down there, or does Westphal not run plays for Hawes in the paint because he doesn't play down there?

Clearly, you have to put some of that on the coach, but I think that coaching to what your players demonstrate in practice and/or the games has to do with it, as well. Or do you think that Westphal would still be running high pick and roll plays for his center even if he had Oden or Noah instead of Hawes?

I see where you are coming from. Spencer is clearly playing the way PW wants him to, otherwise PW would be pulling Hawes out of the game and letting him know he wasn't happy with Hawes play.

On the other hand, PW is having Spencer play on top, because Spencer isn't strong enough to muscle his way inside on his own. Chicken or Egg.

So, PW is looking at Spencer's skills and using him the way that benefits the team the best. So, it's not that Spencer isn't helping the team that people are mad about. It's that he isn't Fricken Dwight Howard.

He's 21 and barely weights about 20 lbs more than the average SF. And, 25 lbs more than our starting PG. And, maybe he never bulks up in the weight room. That's the chance you take when you draft an 19 yr old.

On every offensive possession, he runs down the court and fights for position in the paint. It's not his fault no one gets him the ball, but at least he's trying. He isn't strong enough to back down some of the biggest players in the NBA. Give him some credit for the things he does. And, stop criticising him for not trying to do things that he can't.

He played in 145 games over the last 2 years and doubled his 1st years production in his 2nd year. The 3rd isn't over yet.

 

[Bricklayer]

I see where you are coming from. Spencer is clearly playing the way PW wants him to, otherwise PW would be pulling Hawes out of the game and letting him know he wasn't happy with Hawes play.

On the other hand, PW is having Spencer play on top, because Spencer isn't strong enough to muscle his way inside on his own. Chicken or Egg.

So, PW is looking at Spencer's skills and using him the way that benefits the team the best. So, it's not that Spencer isn't helping the team that people are mad about. It's that he isn't Fricken Dwight Howard.

He's 21 and barely weights about 20 lbs more than the average SF. And, 25 lbs more than our starting PG. And, maybe he never bulks up in the weight room. That's the chance you take when you draft an 19 yr old.

That's just another excuse. So so many fo those get thrown out. If that had anything to do with it Pau Gasol would be a three point shooter -- and he's generally accused of being soft. So would Andris Biedrins. And so would have Kevin McHale been (came into the league at 210lbs), the man Hawes' skills sometimes are identified with, and who was one of the most devastating post players of his, or any, generation.

Its not about lack of size. Spencer is a big guy. Top 20% in this or any other league. Its that Spencer came into the league full of himself, poorly coached, and taking all the wrong models as his heroes. He openly talked about trying to be like Brad Miller, and has long focused on the easy way out. To this point he has become basically the least player he could become because of it. Spencer Hawes is far more talented than most people give him credit for. Including he himself. I've seen post skills like those only a handful of times, and I've been watching the game for a long time. But talent means nothing without guts and determination. All Spencer's peers on the team have them. Reke has them - he'll get the most out of his talent. Casspi has them. JT has them, even if I do doubt the talent sometimes. Even Donte, somewhat shockingly, has started throwing himself around out there sacrificing his body seemingly determined to get the most out of what he's got. Let alone Spencer's old bodyguard Brockman. And then there's Spencer, caught betwen man and boy, and many nights reeking of the Colonel's 11 secret herbs & spices.

They say nothing worthwhile comes without a fight, and that goes for basketball, or any other sport too. Taking the easy way out is never the way to win at anything. They also say practice makes perfect. And running fleeing out to the perimeter to chuck jumpshots is only going to result in a stunted career as a backup for Spencer when i fhe worked on his inside play he could easily be a 10yr starter.

P.S. As an aside -- Westphal has no options other than Spencer -- you know that as well as I do. Its been a season long struggle with our lack of backup size. That was what made the early season benchings and erratic minutes so telling. When you have no size, are openly concerned about it, and are still benching your biggest player and starting a stubby plus sized player in his place, that says something about your confidence in that big guy. Spencer doesn't have to play great or even well to be our best option there. He just has to not be the biggest weenie this side of Channing Frye.

 

[Aenadin]

if spence makes those 3s more consistently i wont argue anymore

i just do the simple math

3 beats two any day... and in the paint it draws the likes of howard away

 

[Prince_XY]

The bottom line is we need someone ( who's a starter ) to match-up and bang with the likes of Howard and Shaq inside the paint. Hawes is supposely that guy and he keeps on refusing to man-up and do his job. We know he can. He's done it on some occasions. He is not that undersized. He is not a rookie anymore. He should at least show us that he is willing to play the way true centers ( that matters ) play.

 

[drboiffard]

Hawes has a lot of skills. Yesterday impressed most than any other in the team. I think right now it's only up to him get harder and more agressive in D and rebounding.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Hawes seems to be getting a reputation as a lazy player, he hasn't shown up for summer leagues and seems to take the concept of offseason a little to literally and so he has started slow every season he has been here and come on by the end. That really isn't acceptable, and the outside shooting/unwillingness to bang just reinforces that notion that he doesn't like to work hard.

JT has some maturity issues to work on along with figuring out how to stop fouling so much but because his hustle is infectious he has won the fans over because no matter what he gives the impression he is working hard and earning his salary and trying to get better.

 

[Kingster]

I'm talking in a more broader terms. As far as overall game, I've seen many comments ragging on Hawes, about how he should be traded or relegated to the bench based on the negatives of his game, while glossing over the limitations and negatives of JT.

Most of that has to do with the way Hawes is used in the offense.

Seriously, I can't believe I watch the games just like most people on this forum, and people still come up with comments like these. I mean, it's really staggering to me.

The games are replayed on TV. I would suggest you go watch it again, and count to me the number of times a play was ran for Hawes on the block. And I mean the team brings the ball up, Hawes fights for position knowing he is going to get the ball, gets established, calls for the ball, receives the entry pass, and his teammates space the floor for him to work. Count them. Because I saw that happen about one time that game.

Hawes isn't used that way, because they don't have an offense that heavily promotes post offense. JT and Hawes are used at the high block to set screens, and in Spencer's case, he starts out the halfcourt set coming out to the perimeter knowing a screen will be used instead of knowing the team wants to look from him on the block. He then rolls out to space the floor, giving him the options of becoming a shooting threat or passing threat. That's how he's used. It's not his fault the team chooses not to focus on him as a post threat, and would rather use him as a face up perimeter big man to space the floor.

Thank you.

 

[Kingster]

That's just another excuse. So so many fo those get thrown out. If that had anything to do with it Pau Gasol would be a three point shooter -- and he's generally accused of being soft. So would Andris Biedrins. And so would have Kevin McHale been (came into the league at 210lbs), the man Hawes' skills sometimes are identified with, and who was one of the most devastating post players of his, or any, generation.

Its not about lack of size. Spencer is a big guy. Top 20% in this or any other league. Its that Spencer came into the league full of himself, poorly coached, and taking all the wrong models as his heroes. He openly talked about trying to be like Brad Miller, and has long focused on the easy way out. To this point he has become basically the least player he could become because of it. Spencer Hawes is far more talented than most people give him credit for. Including he himself. I've seen post skills like those only a handful of times, and I've been watching the game for a long time. But talent means nothing without guts and determination. All Spencer's peers on the team have them. Reke has them - he'll get the most out of his talent. Casspi has them. JT has them, even if I do doubt the talent sometimes. Even Donte, somewhat shockingly, has started throwing himself around out there sacrificing his body seemingly determined to get the most out of what he's got. Let alone Spencer's old bodyguard Brockman. And then there's Spencer, caught betwen man and boy, and many nights reeking of the Colonel's 11 secret herbs & spices.

They say nothing worthwhile comes without a fight, and that goes for basketball, or any other sport too. Taking the easy way out is never the way to win at anything. They also say practice makes perfect. And running fleeing out to the perimeter to chuck jumpshots is only going to result in a stunted career as a backup for Spencer when i fhe worked on his inside play he could easily be a 10yr starter.

P.S. As an aside -- Westphal has no options other than Spencer -- you know that as well as I do. Its been a season long struggle with our lack of backup size. That was what made the early season benchings and erratic minutes so telling. When you have no size, are openly concerned about it, and are still benching your biggest player and starting a stubby plus sized player in his place, that says something about your confidence in that big guy. Spencer doesn't have to play great or even well to be our best option there. He just has to not be the biggest weenie this side of Channing Frye.

Do these comments have anything to do with the Indiana game, or are they just the opinion you've formed over the last months or years?

 

[Showtime]

based on what I've seen of Hawes, is that he'd be perfectly happy to camp out on the three-point line, and avoid contact at all costs. Not a trait that I personally like to see in my centers; I loathe bigs that shoot threes.

And my response to this would be:

If that's the case, then why do I see him, at times, fight for position on the block and call for the ball, only for the teammate (mostly Martin), to never give him the ball? This happened several times a game last season, and more earlier this season. If he never wanted to post, and would rather face up from 20 feet, then I shouldn't see him want the ball down low.

 

[nickmcclure]

Tyreke's assists will go up when Kevin returns. Kevin is one of the best in hte league at moving with out th ball. Funny thing is, most Kings fans don't want Kevin anywhere near the court.

Quoted for truth!

 

[rainmaker]

Is everyone ignoring, or just hasn't noticed, that two of the reasons Westphal has Spencer playing outside some of the time is to a) open up lanes for Tyreke, and b) pull a big outside so JT has more room to operate in the post?

Wether or not you agree with the stategy, Spencer is playing outside for a reason. Does he drift outside a little too much for my liking? Yes. But its partly by design to open things up for others. Its not as black and white as Spencer is soft, is afraid of contact, and just hides out at the 3pt line.