Omri or Rudy? (split)

[Kingston Jamaica]

No, ideally Omri is an important bench piece that can be a backup SF and stretch four. But at this point if the choice is between starting Rudy or starting Omri I'd rather have Casspi out there.

Rudy is much more talented but I've never been a fan of his game. He plays losing basketball IMO. Ball stopping, ISO play that is midrange focused and forces shots rather than moving the basketball.

He puts up scoring numbers but wilts under aggressive ball pressure, rarely comes through in crunch time and is usually not engaged enough on defense.

The argument for Rudy on the Kings is that no one else other than Boogie can create their own shot but the flaw in that argument is that when Gay plays with Cousins the offense stagnates and when he's on the court without Cousins he shows the same thing he's always shown - his efficiency plummets as his already high usage increases further.

The Kings DO need a second scorer, especially when Cousins isn't in the floor but Rudy isn't that guy.

Trade him for what you can get and try to win games based on scrappy, hustling play and ball movement along with Cousins doing his thing.

This is a very good analysis in my opinion.

 

[arusinov]

Rudy can create his own shot. Omri can't. That's the basically the difference. Omri is a complimentary player and Rudy is a dedicated scorer.


That said I'd much rather have Omri starting and trade Gay. His midrange focused, ISO based game is losing basketball to me.

There's interesting thing about it. What's basically this thing "create his own shot" which supposedly distinguish “star player” from “role-player”? Good role player on offensive end should be able to do some (if he's great role-player - all) of following: exploit mismatches by driving through slower defenders and posting-up smaller ones, spread the floor by knocking down open 3s, run the floor in fast breaks, cut for easy baskets., move the ball (some assists would be nice), go for offensive rebounds ... And yes, Casspi can do all those things good or at least reasonable well.

What role player is not supposed to do (and Casspi actually avoids doing it) - is trying to beat opponent one on one when there's no clear advantage established... Why should the stars resolve to do it? First. Some of those guys are unbelievable effective. Lebron, Durant and Steph Curry are doing this a lot and still their career effFG% are 53.3%, 53.2% and crazy 57.5% for Steph. Then. It could be because team offense is stagnant, not effective and better opportunities couldn't be produced... (also some "stars" "going ISO" just because they think it's "what stars do")

Now Rudy Gay career effFG% of 48.6% is not terrible ... but it's not really great ether. So maybe "creating" some middle-range shot is not that great idea in his case.


Now another thing. It seems to be quite reasonable that role-players would be effective scorers - as they can select good shot while stars are obliged to take all kinds of shots... The reality that almost all of role-players are actually not effective scorers - or because they don't understand what's good shot (hint: long 2pt shot usually is not the good one) or because they just can't get or hit good shots.

And when speaking about Casspi. The last year official list of 10 most effective scorers (by effFG%) is as following:


1.DeAndre Jordan • LAC.703

2.Stephen Curry • GSW.630

3.Dwight Howard • HOU.620

4.Hassan Whiteside • MIA.606

5.J.J. Redick • LAC.593

6.Enes Kanter • OKC.583

7.Kevin Durant • OKC.573

8.Chandler Parsons • DAL.571

9.Klay Thompson • GSW.569

10.Marcin Gortat • WAS.567


As you can see - or big man scoring mostly on dunks and short-range shots over opponents (DeAndre, Howard, Whiteside, Kanter, Gortat). or star players (Curry, Durant, Thompson, Parsons) and one very succesfull 3pt specialist (Redick).

To get to this list player had to make 300 baskets in the season. Casspi had ... 299. And his effFg% was .571


I would say it means that Casspi is quite special multifaceted player which is not star... but can be 6th man or starter (yes, when there is couple of stars in the line-up)

 

[Alon Rosen]

No, don't get me wrong, I think Omri is a valuable player to this team but ideally he's your 7th or 8th man off the bench and not your starter. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Not to keep bringing up Cisco for some reason but prior to breaking his wrist in an unfortunate accident, he was probably the fourth or fifth most important guy on the team despite primarily being a bench guy.

Hedo was also a hugely important piece of the glory day teams who could start but was much more effective for the team when he was able to come off the bench and do his thing. (It wasn't until we traded him and he got serious about basketball for a couple of years that he really became a 'starter' starter.)

Can Omri start? Yeah.
Is that where he's best? The jury's still out.

I "stole" that info from Arusinov(thanks dude)
Last year numbers when Casspi was starting were per game (in 21 games):
14 points, 7 rebounds, 1.7 assists (1.8 turnovers) on 50.5 FG%, 48.0 3P%
Hardly can be called "brutally exposed" IMHO

Based on that psychotic statline in a "mighty team" like the current Kings,
there is no jury in this world that would not say... go to the the Lions Den bro...
and not just that... let us assist you to do some more of this exceptionally good you have produced...
This + other parts of the puzzle + DJ defense... and this side might have reach that ancient place... i forgot it name... playoffs...(might)...

 

[kingjatt]

Omri should start but not over Rudy. IMO ball movement/pace basketball can be shut down by an attentive defense at which point you need an ISO bucket. Cuz can provide that but you NEED a secondary guy who has the skill to go to the hoop and get a bucket or draw a foul.

Problem is this year Rudy is settling for clank jumpers or turning it over alot more than forcing his way to the front of the hoop. IF he does go to the rack he seemingly gets discouraged over one missed bunny and never attacks again. Last year really instilled some bad habits into him because under Malone he was at times relentlessly going to the basket. With his size normal SFs have no choice but to foul if he is able to get position on them.

Not sure if hes saving his body from serious injury or has just plain checked out but based on the eye test he is no where near the same Rudy we saw under Malone regardless of what the numbers say.

Some of the blame definitely lies on Rudy but I still believe he is not being used correctly and is kind of just lost out their. Malone made sure to make Rudy a priority and between him and Cuz we were wrecking other frontlines. If we can get back to that wreck the frontline mentality along with these scrappy and hustling vets we should be better than we were under Malone.

Joerger was suppose to get back to that smash mouth style(which this roster is made for IMO) but I'm not sure what the heck he's running on offense. We usually just swing the ball around(or a weak pick and roll where no one actually rolls) the top until someone has a tiny bit of space to take a low percentage jumper and after we miss were just getting back on defense. Get back to being physical and you will see a different team. Stop trying to force jumpers, even if they are semi open and start by getting to the hoop and play inside out from there and you will see a different Rudy as well.

 

[funkykingston]

There's interesting thing about it. What's basically this thing "create his own shot" which supposedly distinguish “star player” from “role-player”? Good role player on offensive end should be able to do some (if he's great role-player - all) of following: exploit mismatches by driving through slower defenders and posting-up smaller ones, spread the floor by knocking down open 3s, run the floor in fast breaks, cut for easy baskets., move the ball (some assists would be nice), go for offensive rebounds ... And yes, Casspi can do all those things good or at least reasonable well.

What role player is not supposed to do (and Casspi actually avoids doing it) - is trying to beat opponent one on one when there's no clear advantage established... Why should the stars resolve to do it? First. Some of those guys are unbelievable effective. Lebron, Durant and Steph Curry are doing this a lot and still their career effFG% are 53.3%, 53.2% and crazy 57.5% for Steph. Then. It could be because team offense is stagnant, not effective and better opportunities couldn't be produced... (also some "stars" "going ISO" just because they think it's "what stars do")

Now Rudy Gay career effFG% of 48.6% is not terrible ... but it's not really great ether. So maybe "creating" some middle-range shot is not that great idea in his case.


Now another thing. It seems to be quite reasonable that role-players would be effective scorers - as they can select good shot while stars are obliged to take all kinds of shots... The reality that almost all of role-players are actually not effective scorers - or because they don't understand what's good shot (hint: long 2pt shot usually is not the good one) or because they just can't get or hit good shots.

And when speaking about Casspi. The last year official list of 10 most effective scorers (by effFG%) is as following:


1.DeAndre Jordan • LAC.703

2.Stephen Curry • GSW.630

3.Dwight Howard • HOU.620

4.Hassan Whiteside • MIA.606

5.J.J. Redick • LAC.593

6.Enes Kanter • OKC.583

7.Kevin Durant • OKC.573

8.Chandler Parsons • DAL.571

9.Klay Thompson • GSW.569

10.Marcin Gortat • WAS.567


As you can see - or big man scoring mostly on dunks and short-range shots over opponents (DeAndre, Howard, Whiteside, Kanter, Gortat). or star players (Curry, Durant, Thompson, Parsons) and one very succesfull 3pt specialist (Redick).

To get to this list player had to make 300 baskets in the season. Casspi had ... 299. And his effFg% was .571


I would say it means that Casspi is quite special multifaceted player which is not star... but can be 6th man or starter (yes, when there is couple of stars in the line-up)

Basically I'd say a star player (an offensive minded star, not counting the Kevin Garnett type super high role players) is a guy that you can throw the ball into and say, "got get a basket" and they can do it. When guys like Durant, Melo, Westbrook and Cousins are on, there's nobody that can stop them. Rudy plays in that style but isn't that type of player.

Omri is a role player that knows his strengths and limitations even if he occasionally makes some head slapping turnovers. I was frustrated when Joerger wasn't giving him any minutes and glad he's back in the rotation. But the Kings DO need one other player who can create his shot. Ideally two - a scoring PG or wing player that can hit from outside in the starting lineup and a sixth man scorer who can come off the bench and put up numbers in a hurry - a Lou Williams, Jamal Crawford type.

 

[funkykingston]

Omri should start but not over Rudy. IMO ball movement/pace basketball can be shut down by an attentive defense at which point you need an ISO bucket. Cuz can provide that but you NEED a secondary guy who has the skill to go to the hoop and get a bucket or draw a foul.

Problem is this year Rudy is settling for clank jumpers or turning it over alot more than forcing his way to the front of the hoop. IF he does go to the rack he seemingly gets discouraged over one missed bunny and never attacks again. Last year really instilled some bad habits into him because under Malone he was at times relentlessly going to the basket. With his size normal SFs have no choice but to foul if he is able to get position on them.

Not sure if hes saving his body from serious injury or has just plain checked out but based on the eye test he is no where near the same Rudy we saw under Malone regardless of what the numbers say.

Some of the blame definitely lies on Rudy but I still believe he is not being used correctly and is kind of just lost out their. Malone made sure to make Rudy a priority and between him and Cuz we were wrecking other frontlines. If we can get back to that wreck the frontline mentality along with these scrappy and hustling vets we should be better than we were under Malone.

Joerger was suppose to get back to that smash mouth style(which this roster is made for IMO) but I'm not sure what the heck he's running on offense. We usually just swing the ball around(or a weak pick and roll where no one actually rolls) the top until someone has a tiny bit of space to take a low percentage jumper and after we miss were just getting back on defense. Get back to being physical and you will see a different team. Stop trying to force jumpers, even if they are semi open and start by getting to the hoop and play inside out from there and you will see a different Rudy as well.

I'd disagree on a ball movement offense being shut down by an attentive defense. Boston and OKC each rally only have one player who excels at getting their own shot and both are currently in the playoff picture. Moving the ball effectively stretches a defense to allow a good shot. You definitely need at least one go-to guy and ideally two but Rudy isn't that guy IMO. He's an isolation scorer that in my mind plays a style of basketball that isn't conducive to team play or winning.

That can be okay to some extent if the guy is an elite scorer but Rudy isn't.

 

[Kingsfan23]

At this point I agree Gay should be traded and Omri starting

 

[Kingsfan23]

I'm also concerned on Joergers end why he thought it ok to widdle away Omri's career here and play Barnes over him. Talent recognition IMO might need improving

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm also concerned on Joergers end why he thought it ok to widdle away Omri's career here and play Barnes over him. Talent recognition IMO might need improving

You're a tad confused if you think Omri has been a better player over his career than Matt Barnes has. Barnes has been a roleplaying starter for playoff teams for a decade. It's certainly close enough that the end result is no foregone conclusion.

 

[Sam0ah]

You're a tad confused if you think Omri has been a better player over his career than Matt Barnes has. Barnes has been a roleplaying starter for playoff teams for a decade. It's certainly close enough that the end result is no foregone conclusion.

That and Joerger might value defense more than offense.

 

[kingjatt]

I'd disagree on a ball movement offense being shut down by an attentive defense. Boston and OKC each rally only have one player who excels at getting their own shot and both are currently in the playoff picture. Moving the ball effectively stretches a defense to allow a good shot. You definitely need at least one go-to guy and ideally two but Rudy isn't that guy IMO. He's an isolation scorer that in my mind plays a style of basketball that isn't conducive to team play or winning.

That can be okay to some extent if the guy is an elite scorer but Rudy isn't.

I probably could have phrased it better, yes ball movement needs to be a staple of the offense and the starting point for a successful team. But a lot of the time and especially with a team like the kings who lack a gravitational pull of shooters to create effective passing lanes things get shut down a lot more often and we are left with needing an isolation type bucket or foul call.

Also when its winning time and defenses step up the ball movement stuff generally gets sniffed out with switches and general increase in intensity. For non-elite ball movement teams like the kings the only option is to isolate, which we have been doing, just not the right way IMO.

IMO even great ball movement teams can get shut down and need an iso bucket (see dubs/cavs game 7 where it basically became an iso game with everything switched, the better iso team won). When we get to that point in the possession I'd rather be seeing the ball being worked in down low ideally Instead of this constant face up iso from the 3 pt line we are seeing now with Rudy/Cuz. That is not either one of their's game, they succeed sometimes but ideally they both need to be parked down low more often, mainly Rudy.

Your right Rudy is not an elite scorer on the level of KD/Bron/Khawi/Melo etc and he never will be but the least we can do is work him down low where we have seen him have success and be "elite enough" for us to win.

 

[bajaden]

Omri should start but not over Rudy. IMO ball movement/pace basketball can be shut down by an attentive defense at which point you need an ISO bucket. Cuz can provide that but you NEED a secondary guy who has the skill to go to the hoop and get a bucket or draw a foul.

Problem is this year Rudy is settling for clank jumpers or turning it over alot more than forcing his way to the front of the hoop. IF he does go to the rack he seemingly gets discouraged over one missed bunny and never attacks again. Last year really instilled some bad habits into him because under Malone he was at times relentlessly going to the basket. With his size normal SFs have no choice but to foul if he is able to get position on them.

Not sure if hes saving his body from serious injury or has just plain checked out but based on the eye test he is no where near the same Rudy we saw under Malone regardless of what the numbers say.

Some of the blame definitely lies on Rudy but I still believe he is not being used correctly and is kind of just lost out their. Malone made sure to make Rudy a priority and between him and Cuz we were wrecking other frontlines. If we can get back to that wreck the frontline mentality along with these scrappy and hustling vets we should be better than we were under Malone.

Joerger was suppose to get back to that smash mouth style(which this roster is made for IMO) but I'm not sure what the heck he's running on offense. We usually just swing the ball around(or a weak pick and roll where no one actually rolls) the top until someone has a tiny bit of space to take a low percentage jumper and after we miss were just getting back on defense. Get back to being physical and you will see a different team. Stop trying to force jumpers, even if they are semi open and start by getting to the hoop and play inside out from there and you will see a different Rudy as well.

Well your wrong on the first paragraph. The best way to breakdown a defense is with ball and player movement. The easiest offense to defend, is isolation offense. Don't get me wrong, you need players that are capable of getting you a basket when all else fails, especially when its the end of the game and there's only 5 seconds left on the clock. I watched Rick Barry do it over and over again in his hey day. But you know what, other than those times, Barry was a terrific passer who moved the ball.

I'm not making an argument for starting Gay over Casspi. In a normal world, Gay is the more talented player, but in our world, he doesn't mesh well with Cousins, who has a tendency to be a ball stopper as well, and, his days on the team are numbered, so why not start building chemistry for the future. To be honest, this team has bigger problems than whether Casspi should start over Gay. But it's something to talk about.

 

[kingsboi]

I'd disagree on a ball movement offense being shut down by an attentive defense. Boston and OKC each rally only have one player who excels at getting their own shot and both are currently in the playoff picture. Moving the ball effectively stretches a defense to allow a good shot. You definitely need at least one go-to guy and ideally two but Rudy isn't that guy IMO. He's an isolation scorer that in my mind plays a style of basketball that isn't conducive to team play or winning.

That can be okay to some extent if the guy is an elite scorer but Rudy isn't.

That has always been his identity, it's too bad that he has been on this roster as long as he has been, hopefully the misery ends soon.

 

[kingjatt]

Well your wrong on the first paragraph. The best way to breakdown a defense is with ball and player movement. The easiest offense to defend, is isolation offense. Don't get me wrong, you need players that are capable of getting you a basket when all else fails, especially when its the end of the game and there's only 5 seconds left on the clock. I watched Rick Barry do it over and over again in his hey day. But you know what, other than those times, Barry was a terrific passer who moved the ball.

I'm not making an argument for starting Gay over Casspi. In a normal world, Gay is the more talented player, but in our world, he doesn't mesh well with Cousins, who has a tendency to be a ball stopper as well, and, his days on the team are numbered, so why not start building chemistry for the future. To be honest, this team has bigger problems than whether Casspi should start over Gay. But it's something to talk about.

Yeah I pretty much elaborated on that in my next post. And yes the key point in your post is we have bigger problems with this squad than whether Rudy or Omri should start.

 

[kingsboi]

I probably could have phrased it better, yes ball movement needs to be a staple of the offense and the starting point for a successful team. But a lot of the time and especially with a team like the kings who lack a gravitational pull of shooters to create effective passing lanes things get shut down a lot more often and we are left with needing an isolation type bucket or foul call.

Also when its winning time and defenses step up the ball movement stuff generally gets sniffed out with switches and general increase in intensity. For non-elite ball movement teams like the kings the only option is to isolate, which we have been doing, just not the right way IMO.

IMO even great ball movement teams can get shut down and need an iso bucket (see dubs/cavs game 7 where it basically became an iso game with everything switched, the better iso team won). When we get to that point in the possession I'd rather be seeing the ball being worked in down low ideally Instead of this constant face up iso from the 3 pt line we are seeing now with Rudy/Cuz. That is not either one of their's game, they succeed sometimes but ideally they both need to be parked down low more often, mainly Rudy.

Your right Rudy is not an elite scorer on the level of KD/Bron/Khawi/Melo etc and he never will be but the least we can do is work him down low where we have seen him have success and be "elite enough" for us to win.

We do that and we now see more perimeter oriented Cousins chucking up brick after brick and occasionally getting hot, not exactly playing the odds here in terms of efficient basketball. Gay's deep shooting has completely evaporated into a black hole...I cry inside every time I see him shoot a three ball now because I have a feeling that more often than not, he will brick it.

I believe the point has come where we need to stop with how we want to implement Gay and start talking about what we can get for him that has any significance, even if it's a small return.

 

[Ron]

That and Joerger might value defense more than offense.

Point being...?

As far as I can tell from watching (and stat-checking) this season so far, Casspi seemed to be the more effective defender of the two...

 

[Alon Rosen]

I'd disagree on a ball movement offense being shut down by an attentive defense. Boston and OKC each rally only have one player who excels at getting their own shot and both are currently in the playoff picture. Moving the ball effectively stretches a defense to allow a good shot. You definitely need at least one go-to guy and ideally two but Rudy isn't that guy IMO. He's an isolation scorer that in my mind plays a style of bask. etball that isn't conducive to team play or winning.

That can be okay to some extent if the guy is an elite scorer but Rudy isn't.

Well, somehow you both right.

combo of go to guy + finding the free person to shot the ball or to slash(inside-out play)

And because the only go-to guy in this team is boogie... meanwhile we need to base ourselves in being wise...
we need beside of Boogie 30ppg(with quality %), to have several more guys with about 20ppg(with quality%).

That's why i have an idea...

To play with a starting lineup of: Boogie, Rudy, Casspi, Collison and ...Kosta OR Temple(depends on the size of the opponent)

Boogie, Rudy, Collison and Casspi can score... If the other team is bigger and slower - We can have Kosta.... if it more dynamic and shorter, we can have Temple.

I think it's the best sollution with the ingredients this team has to offer.

 

[ApolloDaGod]

Trade them both.

 

[ApolloDaGod]

I will go on saying in no way shape or form should Casspi start for any basketball club. I would like to retain Casspi for our bench and trade Rudy.

 

[KingsFanGER]

I will go on saying in no way shape or form should Casspi start for any basketball club. I would like to retain Casspi for our bench and trade Rudy.

You won't get a starting SF/PF for an expiring Rudy Gay.
And when your options for the starting 5 are KK, Matt Barnes or Casspi I won't hold my breath, when Casspi actually ends up starting. It's tells a lot about our roster management, but starting Casspi doesn't seem unreasonable on a team like the Kings.
May be unreasonable for 29 other NBA teams though.

But the same was said about Maurice Harkless for example and now he is the starter for the Trailblazers. Cinderella stories happen....

 

[Alon Rosen]

Talki

I will go on saying in no way shape or form should Casspi start for any basketball club. I would like to retain Casspi for our bench and trade Rudy.

No shape or form??

Well i respect your opinion, but reality tells a different story...

Last year numbers when Casspi was starting *21 games*
14 points, 7 rebounds, 1.7 assists (1.8 turnovers) on 50.5 FG%, 48.0 3P%

Even if he will not improve those numbers which are great as they are(and why not)... with that statline he easily can be a starter in a decent playoff team...

 

[CelticsFan]

But the same was said about Maurice Harkless for example and now he is the starter for the Trailblazers. Cinderella stories happen....

I know Harkless feels like he's been in the league forever but he's still only 23, the same age as WCS. He's a nice player and still young

 

[ApolloDaGod]

Casspi looked wonderful out there tonight

 

[ApolloDaGod]

Something that stat lines don't show is your presence on the court and what you truly do to change the game. Casspi is no starter, great off the bench and I like his game. Not a starter.

 

[The Effort Police]

Last year, I would've traded Omri for Tyler Johnson and been thrilled about it.

We like to moan about the lack of youth on this team a lot, but we let an opportunity to get a promising young player get away from us. I'm surprised no one talks about that.

 

[sono]

At this point I agree Gay should be traded and Omri starting

If Gay is traded then we damn better get someone who is more fitting to our offense. Omri is not a starter.

 

[kingsboi]

If Gay is traded then we damn better get someone who is more fitting to our offense. Omri is not a starter.

He is ONLY if you plan on being in the bottom five of the lottery.

 

[Kingsfan23]

I think we are on a countdown with Gay.. not only with fit/energy and Omri playing well, but the latest rumors about OKC/Hou/LAC interest.. might not be here a month from now IMO. Don't see it going til the deadline