Now that things are starting to gel a little...

[Spok22]

Do you think it would be more beneficial for this Kings team if they kept all players they have now (not including head or jackson) and added through free agency or do you think we should still attempt get rid of landry/dalembert or replace some of our other players.

Personally, although landry is a huge black hole, i like him for the extra offensive rebounds and the added offense on the floor. I just really like him behind thompson right now and i would like to see him stay unless we get a new reliable pf or start playing boogie at pf.

Same with samuel. I would like to see us resign him. He really helps to keep ppl out of the paint which was a huge problem we had last year and cousins and him on the floor really seems to click the majority of the time.

I would love to see this exact same team next year with a couple of additions. I feel like things might actually be starting to come together little by little, day by day. With a bunch of new players next year we could be right back where this season started this year.

 

[pshn80]

I always like the players we have. I really like the players we have when we improve and win a few or win a big one. So, right now, I wouldn't change a player for love nor money. Go THESE Kings!!!!!!

 

[ParniValjak]

Reality is that something will have to give in the frontcourt. Far too many players that are good enough to start and play major minutes. While thats great for us, reality is that we won't be able to keep that group together and honestly I am not sure we should either.

I like what Landry brings as a scoring 6th man but I also feel that what Dalembert brings is more valuable going forward. With Reke, Cousins and Casspi developing, I don't see the offense as being too much of a worry. Defensively however, we need some majot help. Thats why I would love to re-sign Dalembert but the most likely outcome is that both Lardy and Dalembert will be with some other team when the next season starts.

 

[The Hammer]

Reality is that something will have to give in the frontcourt. Far too many players that are good enough to start and play major minutes. While thats great for us, reality is that we won't be able to keep that group together and honestly I am not sure we should either.

I like what Landry brings as a scoring 6th man but I also feel that what Dalembert brings is more valuable going forward. With Reke, Cousins and Casspi developing, I don't see the offense as being too much of a worry. Defensively however, we need some majot help. Thats why I would love to re-sign Dalembert but the most likely outcome is that both Lardy and Dalembert will be with some other team when the next season starts.

Yeah, and let's not forget about Whiteside. What's really to think of is that we have the possible defensive beast waiting in the wings with plenty of time to develop and no pressure on him at all.

 

[ParniValjak]

Yeah, and let's not forget about Whiteside. What's really to think of is that we have the possible defensive beast waiting in the wings with plenty of time to develop and no pressure on him at all.

Whiteside is an interesting player. In best case scenario, he is a PERFECT player to have next to Cousins. He has the length, athleticism, insane shot-blocking ability and a good face up jump shot out to 18 feet. He could swing between PF and C and would be an ideal player to have on any team, let alone ours where our best low post player is never going to be a great defender and a shot blocker.

Having said that, Whiteside is all potential at this point! He has proven nothing and has not shown a thing to date so I am not not sure we should be "banking" our future on him just yet. By all means I want us to develop him and invest heavily in him because players of his potential output are extremely rear! There are not many players of his potential versatility (that can play both front court positions) so once you have a chance to develop one, you take it.

I mentioned on one of the other threads that ideal player to have next to Cousins is someone who is 6'10 or taller, athletic, and a genuine shot blocker with a face up jump shot. Ideal stat line you would want out of that player is 12-odd ppg, 10-odd rpg and 2-3 bpg. Whiteside has that potential but unfortunately he is not the first one to have that potential only to never reach it.

For our sake I hope he gets there because one of the hardest positions to fill for us going forward is that PF spot next to Cousins because there are not many players out there who can bring what we need to the table and still be able to play PF on consistent basis. Many of the players producing that sort of stat line are Cs without any offensive game.

 

[kingsboi]

I don't get why people keep talking about Whiteside like he's the next Dalembert or Camby or something. He's a project right now, nothing more. Plus, big men take longer to develop so it will be quite some time until we can consider Whiteside a "piece" going forward.

 

[bajaden]

Do you think it would be more beneficial for this Kings team if they kept all players they have now (not including head or jackson) and added through free agency or do you think we should still attempt get rid of landry/dalembert or replace some of our other players.

Personally, although landry is a huge black hole, i like him for the extra offensive rebounds and the added offense on the floor. I just really like him behind thompson right now and i would like to see him stay unless we get a new reliable pf or start playing boogie at pf.

Same with samuel. I would like to see us resign him. He really helps to keep ppl out of the paint which was a huge problem we had last year and cousins and him on the floor really seems to click the majority of the time.

I would love to see this exact same team next year with a couple of additions. I feel like things might actually be starting to come together little by little, day by day. With a bunch of new players next year we could be right back where this season started this year.

I think the odd's of us keeping both Dalembert and Landry are very slim. Even keeping one of them isn't likely, but possible. Remember that both will be unrestricted freeagents July 1st. Now we would still hold Bird rights to both of them. But then both come with a cap hold if we decide to retain our Bird rights. The cap hold for Dalembert is 20 million dollars, and its 6 million for Landry. Considering that the two combined add up to 26 million against our cap, it would severely hinder our activities in the freeagent market. For that reason I sincerely doubt we'll hang on to our Bird rights, which would mean we would have just as good a chance to resign them as anyone else, but we would have no advantage over anyone else.

As far as Landry being a black hole, maybe we need a little prespective. I broke this down by shots per minute, and then with how many shots per game each player takes.

Landry: 1 shot every 2.8 minutes on the floor. Averages 9.6 shots per game. Shooting percentage of 49.1%

Casspi: 1 shot every 2.8 minutes on the floor. Averages 8.6 shots per game. Shooting percentage of 40.9%

Beno: 1 shot every 3.1 minutes on the floor. Averages 10.5 shots per game. Shooting percentage of 49.4%

J.T. : 1 shot every 3.1 minutes on the floor. Averages 6.7 shots per game. Shooting percentage of 49.1%

Evans: 1 shot every 2.2 minutes on the floor. Averages 16.4 shots per game. Shooting percentage of 40.2%

Cousins: 1 shot every 2.1 minutes on the floor. Averages 11.9 shots per game. Shooting percentage of 43.1%

Cousins and Evans take the most shots, and shoot the most often. But thats the norm on most teams. You usually have your best players taking the most shots. Landry takes the 4th most shots on the team, slightly behind Beno, and shots a little more often than Beno, but then he plays fewer minutes. Considering that Landry shoots a fairly high percentage and is one of the better scorers on the team, I don't see anything that leaps out statistically thats alarming.

If your going on just stats alone, the stat that leaps out is Evans taking the most shots and with the lowest shooting percentage. Now there are a lot of intangibles involved in that stat, such as him being the focus of the other teams defense etc. So I'm not trying to single him out in any way. All I'm saying is that I think Landry's hurting the team by being a black hole is more perception than it is reality. A guy that shoots the under 10 times a game and shoots just under 50% while doing it, isn't hurting the team all that much.

 

[steelevt]

i agree it's gonna be hard to keep both sammy and landry. not only because they'll want more PT, but they'll also want a pay raise if they continue to play well

 

[Spike]

It would be nice if we could keep both. Landry can be an offensive suck-hole, but if you're looking for someone to keep scoring while your starters are on the bench, he's your guy. Dalembert should be needed for at least two more years - I haven't seen or heard anything from Whiteside that says he's ready for NBA minutes. Can we keep them and not ruin our future with money needed for Casspi/Evans/Cousins down the road? I don't know.

 

[The Hammer]

I don't get why people keep talking about Whiteside like he's the next Dalembert or Camby or something. He's a project right now, nothing more. Plus, big men take longer to develop so it will be quite some time until we can consider Whiteside a "piece" going forward.

Did you miss that I said possible beast? The dude averaged 5.4 blocks a game in college. What was that second on the all time list per game? All I'm saying is... not a bad project to have.

 

[Tetsujin]

Did you miss that I said possible beast? The dude averaged 5.4 blocks a game in college. What was that second on the all time list per game? All I'm saying is... not a bad project to have.

His stats in D-League and summer league kind of back that up as well (which is impressive since Musselman adamantly refused to try to play him at all)

 

[kingsboi]

Did you miss that I said possible beast? The dude averaged 5.4 blocks a game in college. What was that second on the all time list per game? All I'm saying is... not a bad project to have.

No, not at all. I'm just saying people need to stop jumping the gun on him like he's destined to be a starter or something, I see his ceiling as a back up shot blocking center but that's just me. Unless he really improves on his game, which of course is possible and sky's the limit.

 

[Bricklayer]

That never happens unless you have a title contender in place. We don't. There will be changes. I think its increasingly obvious that we should do our best to bring back Daly, and Beno's done too much for us to go another way at this point I think. So the open spots/changes that could come are going to be to our forward platoons (both SF and PF) and to the third gaurd position. Some of JT/Landry/Casspi/Greene/Cisco could come back at those spots, but almost surely not all. We have money to spend, and need consistency from those positons, while all those guys are hit and miss in their own ways. You stabilize the forwards and get a high quality thrid guard back there with Reke/Beno, and you are just a little chemistry anda little maturity from being a very good team going forward. If any of our guys want to step forward and establish that they are the guy for one of those jobs, nows the time -- the next three months are your audition. Then we go shopping for whatever we lack.

 

[The Hammer]

His stats in D-League and summer league kind of back that up as well (which is impressive since Musselman adamantly refused to try to play him at all)

Wait did I miss something? Is Mussleman our D league coach?

 

[Tetsujin]

Wait did I miss something? Is Mussleman our D league coach?

Yes indeed.

 

[The Hammer]

Yes indeed.

Wow. Well, good for him. Just don't mess up our project Hassan. Probably a good place for him actually, with being so good at the fundamentals and such.

 

[bajaden]

No, not at all. I'm just saying people need to stop jumping the gun on him like he's destined to be a starter or something, I see his ceiling as a back up shot blocking center but that's just me. Unless he really improves on his game, which of course is possible and sky's the limit.

And you base your enlightened opinon on what? You have a young kid with talent, but raw, and you have some crystal ball you look at and know he's nothing more than a back up. How many times did you see him play in college? How about summer league? Or do you just conjur it up? I mean, just what are you basing your opinion on?

I have no idea how good he's going to be. But I know he has a special talent that few have. A lot of people are very high on him. Sorry if your not. You do have an option of course if the conversation bores you. Go listen in somewhere else.

 

[bajaden]

Wow. Well, good for him. Just don't mess up our project Hassan. Probably a good place for him actually, with being so good at the fundamentals and such.

You do realize that he's no longer in D-league don't you? The Kings brought him back because Musselhead wasn't playing him.

 

[Glenn]

I don't know what a cap hold is but renouncing Dalembert to find, let's say a good defensive big man, makes no sense. We have a guy who is working wonderfully with the team and we may already have the best one-two combo of big guys in the league. If we sign him and the first year is for $15 mil, does he still count as $20 mil cap hold or whatever that is? I just don't understand giving up what is working with the hopes that we will find something that works.

If the hope is that Whiteside will be an adequate replacement for Dalembert, I am speechless. I can understand why someone wouldn't know where Whiteside is playing because he is playing nowhere at the moment.

 

[The Hammer]

You do realize that he's no longer in D-league don't you? The Kings brought him back because Musselhead wasn't playing him.

I do, I do. Just that if we send him there again.

And I wonder this. How in the h-e double hockey sticks can we not just TELL Mussleman to play him more. I mean he does work for the Kings org, right? And it is the "D" league as in Development right? Does that not sit right with you too?

 

[The Hammer]

I don't know what a cap hold is but renouncing Dalembert to find, let's say a good defensive big man, makes no sense. We have a guy who is working wonderfully with the team and we may already have the best one-two combo of big guys in the league. If we sign him and the first year is for $15 mil, does he still count as $20 mil cap hold or whatever that is? I just don't understnad giving up what is working with the hopes that we will find something that works.

Well said. I just wonder what Dally will command next year. 15 mil seems a bit high. I was hoping we could talk him down from what he's currently making. If he said 5 years at 50-60 mil I'd do it.

 

[bajaden]

I do, I do. Just that if we send him there again.

And I wonder this. How in the h-e double hockey sticks can we not just TELL Mussleman to play him more. I mean he does work for the Kings org, right? And it is the "D" league as in Development right? Does that not sit right with you too?

Personally I think Musselhead is trying to use the D-league as a way to get back into the NBA. But your right. Its for the development of players, not coaches.

 

[bajaden]

Well said. I just wonder what Dally will command next year. 15 mil seems a bit high. I was hoping we could talk him down from what he's currently making. If he said 5 years at 50-60 mil I'd do it.

I can tell you right now that the Kings aren't going to pay Dalembert anything close to 15 mil a year. Your getting into LeBron James type money at that figure. The whole point of waiting to see the outcome of the new CBA is that its likely to reduce all salaries, and also the length of contracts, and the amount of years that are guaranteed.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

That all depends on who would be coming to The Kings in a potential trade. I would consider Dalembert, Landry, Thompson, and Greene tradeable but only if it was a package deal that would bring back an all star caliber player. Short of that, I'd say keep them. Depending on who is drafted and who is signed in free agency though, Thompson and Greene could end up being the 11th and 12th men on the team.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

I can tell you right now that the Kings aren't going to pay Dalembert anything close to 15 mil a year. Your getting into LeBron James type money at that figure. The whole point of waiting to see the outcome of the new CBA is that its likely to reduce all salaries, and also the length of contracts, and the amount of years that are guaranteed.

I doubt they'd even pay him half of that. He's a great shotblocker with a very limited offensive game that's turning 30. Anything more than 5 million a year would be overpaying in my opinion.

 

[bajaden]

I don't know what a cap hold is but renouncing Dalembert to find, let's say a good defensive big man, makes no sense. We have a guy who is working wonderfully with the team and we may already have the best one-two combo of big guys in the league. If we sign him and the first year is for $15 mil, does he still count as $20 mil cap hold or whatever that is? I just don't understand giving up what is working with the hopes that we will find something that works.

If the hope is that Whiteside will be an adequate replacement for Dalembert, I am speechless. I can understand why someone wouldn't know where Whiteside is playing because he is playing nowhere at the moment.

Let me see if I can explain a cap hold properly. I'm sure the Capt will step in if I'm wrong. Anyway if a player has played for the same team on a original contract for three years of more, he falls under the Larry Bird rule. Which means that at the end of his contract he becomes an unrestricted freeagent. However because of the Bird rule, the team with which he had been under contract, can offer him more money and for more years of contract, and do so with no regard for the salary cap. Therefore giving it a huge advantage in the negotiations. However, lets say the team is already under the cap by 15 million. In order to prevent that team from going out and signing a player, or several players to contracts, and then coming back and resigning their own player under the Bird rule. They put a hold against the cap which adds up to the previous years salary plus some equation that almost doubles it. Not quite sure they arrive at the figure. But in Dalemberts case it ends up being 20 million, and in Landry's case 6 mil.

In other words there not going to let you have your cake and eat it too. What that means is that if the Kings are 28 million dollars under the cap at years end, and they want to retain the Bird rights for both players, 26 mill of that 28 mill is not usable for signing other freeagents until they either resign both players to whatever they agree on, or relinquish their Bird rights. The Kings have waited too long to be in this position. So I'm sure they'll relinquish those rights on July 1st. Now that doesn't mean we can't still sign either of the players. It just means that we'll be on an equal playing field with every other team that might want to sign them. In any event, we won't be signing anyone until a new CBA is in place. Whenever that is.

I hope thats clear enough. As for Whiteside, I don't think that anyone is suggesting that he's going to be the replacement for Dalembert. I think they're just speculating for the future. Whiteside is hardly ready for the big time yet. But after another year he may be. Remember is always possible that they'll resign Dalembert to a lesser salary than he's now making. But thats up to him, and whether he wants to play as the backup to Cousins.

 

[Glenn]

I mentioned the amount $15 mil as a way of comparing it to the $20 mil cap hold. I want to know what a cap hold is. I used to know the CBA inside and out but seem to have forgotten it. Can't we simply sign Dalembert to a reasonable contract and do away with this "cap hold?" That would be the understanding I once had. Then the $20 mil is no longer a factor.

I agree $15 mil is too high. I also don't know why a guy who is not worth $15 mil counts as $20 mil against our cap room (if I understand what the term means).

I understand the CBA quite well but never have had to deal with a team with so little team salary.



addendum:

BTW, I don't know where my note went. So a cap hold is theoretical if we simply want them and sign them. Right? It doesn't seem to be a major problem.

I admit thoroughly that I want Dalembert back. He and Cuz on the floor together or following each other gives an awful lot of strength and insurance against injury. It may depend a lot on what the Maloofs mean when they say they will spend money. If they are serious about getting a great team here, take advantage of the Bird rights as it puts us in a better negotiating position than any other team. Look where we would be if all we had was Cuz and an injured JT. Poof!

 

[The Hammer]

I doubt they'd even pay him half of that. He's a great shotblocker with a very limited offensive game that's turning 30. Anything more than 5 million a year would be overpaying in my opinion.

You're insane. He's a top 15 overall defensive player in the league. He's a top 8 or 10 defensive big man in the league, easy. One of the best goalies. He'll have 5 more productive years. We'll see what the new CBA brings, but in the current market he's worth at LEAST 8.

Being able to tighten up the defense and prevent path to the basket layups down the stretch is what wins games. You cannot win if you can't do that. That's why guys like him are at such a premium. He doesn't post big numbers, but his effect on the outcomes of close games is huge.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

You're insane. He's a top 15 overall defensive player in the league. He's a top 8 or 10 defensive big man in the league, easy. One of the best goalies. He'll have 5 more productive years. We'll see what the new CBA brings, but in the current market he's worth at LEAST 8.

Being able to tighten up the defense and prevent path to the basket layups down the stretch is what wins games. You cannot win if you can't do that. That's why guys like him are at such a premium. He doesn't post big numbers, but his effect on the outcomes of close games is huge.

He's no better than Kendrick Perkins and Perkins makes 4 million this year.

 

[sackings]

i wish whiteside were in camp to learn from samuel because they have a similar style. with that being said, i doubt samuel will be here after this season.