[Game] Nets @ Kings Game Thread -- 11/19 @ 7PM
- Thread starter Superman
- Start date
NewArena
All-Star
I am TOO through with this coach. How can someone go from bench warmer to starter? Jesus christ. Assign roles.... and stick to them you idiot!!
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
This is a winnable game, but...so was Minnesota, Detroit & New York. Harris/Lopez will get theirs and if they have one more of either Morrow/Farmar/Outlaw/Favors go off for 15+ we will most likely lose this one. Cousins played good against Brook in NJ, let's see if he can continue this. No body on the Nets can guard Tyreke so he should be productive, I hope he is. Landry also has a favorable match up. If NJ scores over 102, we lose.
If you slam Westphal for making poor rotation decisions, it's only fair to praise him for making good ones. After last night's game, Donte should start. More importantly, this means Thompson will not be starting at SF. I'd like some stability too, but only if the lineup makes sense in the first place.
ReinadelosReys
Starter
"Tyreke, Luther, Donté, Carl and Samuel will be the team's starters for the foreseeable future, according to Coach Westphal."
http://twitter.com/SacramentoKings/status/5400439390474240
I think this is supposed to be part of the "if you don't play defense you're not going to play" message PW is trying to send....
http://twitter.com/SacramentoKings/status/5400439390474240
I think this is supposed to be part of the "if you don't play defense you're not going to play" message PW is trying to send....
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Uh, no. He was cut from Team USA because he hurt his ankle, again, on the first day of minicamp and never so much as got to practice with them.
matchups:
Donte vs. the Bench - How long before he sits?
Westphal vs. Stability - Has he reached all 792 possible lineup combinations? (I'll wait for Capt. Factorial to back me up on this one.)
Carl Landry vs. Mandry - Which one will we get?
Kings Frontcourt vs. Nets' Frontcourt - Will Cousins contain Lopez? Will Murphy show his
Can't spell TDM without Troy Murphy. Because it would certainly chap the hide of one Mr. Bricklayer.
Donte vs. the Bench - How long before he sits?
Westphal vs. Stability - Has he reached all 792 possible lineup combinations? (I'll wait for Capt. Factorial to back me up on this one.)
Carl Landry vs. Mandry - Which one will we get?
Kings Frontcourt vs. Nets' Frontcourt - Will Cousins contain Lopez? Will Murphy show his
Can't spell TDM without Troy Murphy. Because it would certainly chap the hide of one Mr. Bricklayer.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
But if Westphal is preaching defense,which he is, it's tough to give our worst defensive player a pass, and expect everyone else to step up on that end.
Obviously Head is not the player Beno is, we all know that. But Head isn't getting abused by 2nd tier pg's every other trip down the floor either.
DeMoN
Bench
You really need to get off the ANTI tyreke wagon. We have no distributors on this team, you can rarely have a player who is both the distributor and the offense. Portland had this problems with Roy, so they got Andre Miller. Once we get something like that, Evans numbers and impact will skyrocket.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Or.....we get some shooters. If Tyreke was surrounded by some of the shooter that other pg's around the league are surrounded by, his assists would be up around 8 per, and the offense would look that much better because we all know, when shooters make shots, it keeps the defense honest.
Tyreke has to get better at initiating the offense, no doubt. But he also sets guys up numerous times in the 1st and 2nd quarters, and guys are just missing open shots, and then he starts to get a little more selfish. Goes both ways. Tyreke has to improve, clearly. But his teammates also have t help by hitting shots and slashing off the ball, instead of always spotting up.
Does their coach tell them that? Because it doesn't seem like he is. Either that or all the players on this team are dumb and are incapable of moving without the ball, in which case everyone on this board is grossly overevaluating the talent we have on this team.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Of course he does. He tells the media all the time how fustrated he is that guys are just standing around and watching Tyreke. He's talked abut ball movement and player movement, and how fustrated he is that guys don't execute what they go over in practice. But I see guys standing around and spotting up at the 3pt line far to much. No one cuts with a purpose. No one.
Guys should watch tape of someone like Doug Christie, who would cut with a purpose and the expectation of receiving the ball. Guys now just cut because that's the movemtent that particular play called for, and they're usually cutting with the idea of creating space, and usually cut away from the ball to the far corner. They need to learn to cut towards the ball from the opposite wing, how to set their man up and use a screen properly, and slash with the expectation of beating your man, receiving the ball, and finishing strong.
I know we have dfferent personel and a different offense, but it would be nice to see someone incorporate some of that into their game, especially since at the moment no one on our team is an above average perimeter shooter.
Westphal covers this stuff in practice. They cover it in college practices. They cover it in high school practices. So, some of this is on the players for not executing, and it's on them to add off the ball movement to their game.
Some of this is also on Westphal. His substitution patterns don't help chemistry one bit. Sometimes, not often, but sometimes our offense runs great, there's plenty of movement, and guys are looking for eachother. Other times it's the most atrocious excuse for NBA basketball I've ever see. What ever the approach has been up to this point is not translating onto the floor. And our offense just doesn't look bad sometimes, it's to the point it makes pickup games at your local gym look like the San Antonio Spurs.
I expect our offense to struggle. We're young, and have 7 new players on the roster. Our talent doesn't mix as well as I would have thought. But when our offense stops running smoothly, it doesn't just stop, it's more like a car slamming into a brick wall and then going up in flames.
Westphal has got to find a way to get some resemblence of an offense to translate over to games, and it has to happen ASAP. Guys look far to clueless for the coaching staff to not shoulder a large portion of the blame. At the same time, slashing to the hoop, either with the ball our without, and looking/passing to cutters, is the most elementary of basketball, and when things break down, I'm literally shocked guys stop moving all together. Guys get selfish, don't pass, why cut if guys won't pass, and they just stand at the 3pt line. Sorry for the rant.
Last edited:
Exactly. It's one thing to talk about it, it's another thing to actually teach it in a way that they will understand and be able to execute. I'm not a basketball coach, but among the things I do, I'm a teacher, and I know that it's not enough to give your students the information - you have to give them a clear method of how to use that information effectively. If one or two students fail, it's their problem. If the entire class fails, it's on the teacher. Our entire team is failing badly, and sending a note to a different kid's parents every week just gets old after a while.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
At the same time, I'm sure despite whichever teaching methods you use, you don't expect all your students to forget everthing the minute they walk out of the classroom. That's what's so puzzling about our offense right now for me. It seems guys completely forget how to play the game they grew up playing. I mean, without coaches, pickup basketball can look much smoother than what we see from the Kings sometimes.
IMO, the responsibility falls on the shoulders of both the coaching staff, and the players. How much of that falls on either side? Don't know. But the coaching staff needs to rethink their approach, as Bajaden has said a few times, and the players need to alter their approach as well, and not become as selfish the minute things head south.
Like I said, if it was one player, then it is probably that player's fault. If it's everyone, then the coach is not doing a good job teaching them what they need to do. A teacher's job is not just to blurt out information. It's to teach, and a big part of teaching is making sure that your students understood you and know exactly what they need to do in order to improve. I'm not sure that they know what they need to do.
Start Garcia!
Easy (and obvious) solution: Start Garcia. He's a better overall player compared to Head, and a far better defender compared to Beno. In fact, Garcia is not only a pretty good defender, he consistently leads all guards in the NBA in blocks per minute.
In addition, Garcia can typically shoot the 3 better than both. It wouldn't hurt a team ranked 29 in the league in HME 3PT%.
Easy (and obvious) solution: Start Garcia. He's a better overall player compared to Head, and a far better defender compared to Beno. In fact, Garcia is not only a pretty good defender, he consistently leads all guards in the NBA in blocks per minute.
In addition, Garcia can typically shoot the 3 better than both. It wouldn't hurt a team ranked 29 in the league in HME 3PT%.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
But as a teacher, are you responsible for the teaching habits your students learned previously from other teachers? Also, I don't know what age group or subjects you teach, but it's no like in school where you're teaching the same thing to students of the same age, with the same level of experience in school.
Not knowing where to be is one subject. Selfishness is another. This isn't the first coach these guys have played for. Guys on our team have varying levels of experience. Every basketball player knows when they're being selfish, and they know passing leads to open shots. I know that. You know that. Broadcasters talk about it. Coaches talk about it. Journalists write about it. We don't know anything NBA players don't know. I'm not making excuses for guys being selfish. That's on them.
Section 101
All-Star
Evans can barely hit them when they are standing still. You think he can hit a moving target with a pass? All his passes are in front of him. There are only a few times where he has made a "no look" type pass. His court vision is pretty narrow.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I'm not going to waste my time debating with you whether or not Tyreke can complete a pass. My last two posts were about our half-court offense as a whole, not whether or not Tyreke can hit a moving target.
Actually, I teach music to college students, which has a lot of similarities because they have to practice to get better, and they have to learn to listen to each other and work with others to do well. Each student comes with a different background, but still I get consistently different results compared to most other teachers, and I know exactly why.
But getting back to basketball, some players are selfish by nature, but a lot of players who are not, will tend to become selfish when they feel insecure about their status on the team. If they get the ball, but know that chances are they won't touch the ball the next 5 times down the court, chances are they will force up a bad shot. If they know a bad game will get them a DNP the next game, that just puts unnecessary pressure on them, and most likely cause them to play selfish and make bad decisions. A lot of things play into this. We look at the team and expect everyone to do the right thing, but players know that their career is on the line, and they need to make sure that they get their next contract - otherwise they are jeopardizing their career (and a lot of money). When this is on their mind, they are bound to play a selfish, stupid, insecure game. The way good coaches handle this, is in defining a system with clear hirarchy and roles for each player. This way each player knows exactly what he is supposed to do, in what plays and circumstances he is supposed to get the ball, when he is supposed to shoot it, and he knows that if he has a bad game, he will have a chance to correct that next time. That way there are no destructive thoughts controlling the players game. But it seems as if PW's idea of teaching them what to do is play musical chairs on the bench.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Regardless of selfishess or lack thereof, for whatever reason we put in a new offense this year, and most of our players are kids. We've changed starting lineups...5 times now in 10 games? Or will the 5th be the next one? And the rest of the rotation has been even more chaotic.
Point being this, neither Reke, nor anybody for that matter, can really have any idea where anybody else is going to be on the court. You see the Lakers play, and they are a machine. They don't have to think about where to pass the ball, they can just do it instinctively and know that the offense says this, and Player B likes to cut this way, and I have to hit him above the waist or his hands are shaky, and he's a lefty. And that's all just subconscious from so much experience together. We have none. So whenever one of our players goes to make a pass or a move nobody is sure how to react, and the player making the move or pass is never sure where anybody is. This is probably a contributing factor to the only consistent play being Reke on the drive with the kicks to the corners. Reke is about the only guy who is a constant, and his game is a constant. And from his perspective he knows where those corner shooters are going to be. Everything else and everybody else feels like they are just probing around ala pickup ball. And some of that, a lot of that in fact, can only be cured by time. And stable lineups of course. Guys settling in, learning tendencies, having little disagreements and conferences about when to cut and how to cut and how to set the pick and whether to roll or pop and all that stuff. You can have the greatest most expeiernced players in the world, by them on the open market as they conspire to team up on your squad say, and if they have not played together they are often going to look like crap until they figure out each other's game.
Years ago I used to have a friend that I would cruise the pickup courts with. We had played together for years, knew each other's games inside and out. We'd go out, join with three other people, and if we were on the same team tear people up out there just by knowing exactly how to play with each other. I knew where he liked to catch the ball, which shoulder he preferred to go over with his hook, if he was on the left block and spun to the middle I would always cut to the hoop looking for the pass. If I snatched a d-board I knew exactly where he would be leaking out. But that took years for us to develop. Some of this just needs time, and stability. I am seeing some stability in the offense we are running in the last few games. I'm beginning to understand how its going to look, and I think it may even be an impresively muscular one featuring lost of postups and slashes to the hoop. But until we settle on a riotation, until personnel get to settle into roles and learn where they shoulkd be and that they can count on each other, its never going to click.
Point being this, neither Reke, nor anybody for that matter, can really have any idea where anybody else is going to be on the court. You see the Lakers play, and they are a machine. They don't have to think about where to pass the ball, they can just do it instinctively and know that the offense says this, and Player B likes to cut this way, and I have to hit him above the waist or his hands are shaky, and he's a lefty. And that's all just subconscious from so much experience together. We have none. So whenever one of our players goes to make a pass or a move nobody is sure how to react, and the player making the move or pass is never sure where anybody is. This is probably a contributing factor to the only consistent play being Reke on the drive with the kicks to the corners. Reke is about the only guy who is a constant, and his game is a constant. And from his perspective he knows where those corner shooters are going to be. Everything else and everybody else feels like they are just probing around ala pickup ball. And some of that, a lot of that in fact, can only be cured by time. And stable lineups of course. Guys settling in, learning tendencies, having little disagreements and conferences about when to cut and how to cut and how to set the pick and whether to roll or pop and all that stuff. You can have the greatest most expeiernced players in the world, by them on the open market as they conspire to team up on your squad say, and if they have not played together they are often going to look like crap until they figure out each other's game.
Years ago I used to have a friend that I would cruise the pickup courts with. We had played together for years, knew each other's games inside and out. We'd go out, join with three other people, and if we were on the same team tear people up out there just by knowing exactly how to play with each other. I knew where he liked to catch the ball, which shoulder he preferred to go over with his hook, if he was on the left block and spun to the middle I would always cut to the hoop looking for the pass. If I snatched a d-board I knew exactly where he would be leaking out. But that took years for us to develop. Some of this just needs time, and stability. I am seeing some stability in the offense we are running in the last few games. I'm beginning to understand how its going to look, and I think it may even be an impresively muscular one featuring lost of postups and slashes to the hoop. But until we settle on a riotation, until personnel get to settle into roles and learn where they shoulkd be and that they can count on each other, its never going to click.
Last edited:
gunks
Hall of Famer
Yeah, I dont know why Westphal hasnt given Cisco the start. It will probably happen eventually. Also, he's playing the guys who play defense....Why is Landry starting then? Dude cant defend a chair. He's turned it on lately, but I really hope we dont sign him. He's like Martin. Guady, empty stats.
DeMoN
Bench
I think i see what Westphal is trying to do.
Our offense is horrid right now. He's trying to see if Head can be a solid distrubitor, because with Beno he's not cutting it. It's pretty hard to have Tyreke be your distributor AND offense. I wanted to see Garcia and Evans in the backcourt together, but honestly, the ball movement would be horrible. With Landry and Dalembert in there, there's no passing in the backcourt. I wonder if Westphal is yelling at Petrie to get a PG.
Our offense is horrid right now. He's trying to see if Head can be a solid distrubitor, because with Beno he's not cutting it. It's pretty hard to have Tyreke be your distributor AND offense. I wanted to see Garcia and Evans in the backcourt together, but honestly, the ball movement would be horrible. With Landry and Dalembert in there, there's no passing in the backcourt. I wonder if Westphal is yelling at Petrie to get a PG.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Beno wasn't benched for lack of ball movement, Beno was benched for defense. And there is no way Luther Head is going to make our ball movement better than Beno Udrih. The hope is however that he will make our defense better, and be adequate enough as a ballhandler that our gains in defense > our losses in ball movement. And fans' normal focus on offense aside, the defense really is the bigger issue right now. It has to improve, and dramatically. And whatever happens on offense to make that happen, happens. I'm not sure its going to hurt that much though, particularly with Donte moving into the lineup too. There is precious little passing in that starting lineup, but it has lunkhead potential if Landry keeps being aggressive -- smash and grab with Reke as the #1 option and Landry as the #2 in the post, and nobody else confused about those roles. Its obviously not a greatly talented offensive crew, but it may be sufficient if it ups the defensive energy. Donte has worked pretty well with Reke, and so has Dalembert. Could be less of the awkward everybody pulling in different directions syndorome we've been experiencing.
The next concern is what happens when we put in the bench. Lots of good offensive players there, but against New York we had them defensively strangled for a quarter, adn then as soon as we put in the non-defensive personnel it all fell apart quickly. We need those guys to provide offensive spark when they come in without compelte defensive collapse.
Last edited:
DeMoN
Bench
Hopefully Garcia can turn into that Matt Barnes type of player to hold down the defense for our bench, we could really use it right now.
FaStRmAn
Starter
I have one question. Are the Kings loosing because of an overall lack of talent, or the fact that the Maloofs refused to spend any more money than was necessary to field a decent team that would win half of their games? The Kings seem to have some young talent, but they are lacking greatly in the veteran talent area. With no reliable scorer or veteran defender, the Kings are going to have an awful time wining any games this season. Has the Maloofs thrown in the towel on this season, and they are promoting it like there are young players that are improving and getting better? And how do the Maloofs expect Westphal or ANY coach to win with the lineup they have now? They are missing outside shooters who can score on a regular basis. Cisco can shoot some, but you cant rely on Luther Head and Darnell Jackson to light up the scoreboard! I have to ask myself why the Maloofs did not bring in 2 players who were established NBA players who could score and make a difference. What they did do is add cannon fodder to the lineup. Filler to make the team look like a complete team but in effect they just added bodies to round out the roster. If they continue to lose at their present rate, you can bet that the Kings will have the worst record in the league by the end of the season. AND maybe that is JUST what the Maloofs want. A Team with the WORST record that gets LOUSY attendance, so that they dont have to upset anyone as they move the team to Seattle or where ever the money is. With the IDIOT Liberals in charge in Sacramento, there will N E V E R be an arena build for ANY Purpose, basketball or otherwise! I am sure that the Kings can find a better deal in Seattle where they know how bad it is to lose an NBA team. But the difference is Sacramento will most likely NEVER get another NBA team back.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Cisco is a career 37% 3pt shooter.
Casspi shot 37% last year.
Green shot 38% last year
Head is a career 39% 3pt shooter.
Beno shot 38% last year.
Its not an awful shooting core really, at least statistically.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Poll
- Locked
- Poll
- Locked
- Poll
