More Williams Joerger drama

#93
Wow this didnt get William's fired!!! Hmmm yeah he doesn't work for vlade or under vlade...hmmm

So why did Williams fire youngman and staff???
Reinforces my belief that this is, first and foremost, office politics / empire building. Williams' patron must be protecting him. As I said above, you don't let the business side mess around with the basketball side.
 
#94

Maybe this will convince VF21 that Williams needs to go.
None of this makes any sense. If Vlade didn't want these people fired, why couldn't he say no? This isn't the 1800s. He wasn't on a sea voyage across the Pacific out of communication for months. Vlade knew what was happening when he was gone. Either Vlade doesn't have as much control as we think, or he's complicit.

If the gossip is true that Williams is running around causing havoc and Vlade hasn't fired him, it's because he can't. For one reason or another.
 
#98
But continue to blather on. It's kind of your shtick.
Number one, you are being rude. Number two, there is no point in having a forthright debate with you. You defend everything and every player on this team. You defend the coach at every turn. You defend the GM at every turn. Of course you are going to take issue with my opinion. I am willing to criticize this team. You are not. My analysis is based on piecing together bits of evidence, I am not pulling monkeys out of my butt. Of course someone who is unwilling to criticize her team is going to have a problem with someone who is willing to criticize the team.

You love Vlade as a player. That's fine I don't begrudge you that. But that doesn't make him immune to criticism as GM. He gave away the farm including our unprotected pick for cap space, chased broken down players, botched the Boogie trade, signed washed up free agents like Afflalo, Hill and Z-Bo, refused to work the phones, has poor command of the English language in a job that requires savvy subtle negotiation, and he is someone you want to place your complete trust and faith? That's like trusting your car repair to a pastry chef.

With that said, he doesn't have to perfect for us to turn the corner. I said a trained monkey could have picked De Aaron at #5, who I placed a franchise tag on before his first pro game. It was the #10 pick that required prudence. Henceforth, when everyone was going left I was going right. I was applauding his moves over the last 6 months controversial moves like drafting Bagley and chasing Lavine, and now here we are hovering around .500. But that doesn't make him a messiah.

Suppose you hopped over to the Milwaukee Bucks Forum. One fan loves every player, overlooks every lackadaisical play and mental blunder and defends every questionable draft pick. Then you have another fan that hands out praise only when there is preponderance of evidence while also questioning the team or player when progress and improvement is slow to nonexistent. Who are you more likely to trust? Who do you think is able to set aside their rooting bias to do an accurate assessment? Who is not blinded by emotion? You are the first fan. I am the second fan. That's is neither good or bad in an ultimate sense, that is just the way it is.

I only dislike two players on this team: Willie and Jackson. I don't go out of my way to hand out verbal smackdowns. I like and support every other player on this roster, for the time being at least, which may be a record over the last decade. Oh, I don't dislike Koufos, but I don't want to see him play either. Further, though I have been highly critical of Joerger and Vlade, I don't want either to lose their job. The coach in particular has been commendable. I forecast he was coaching for his career this season, and it would be predicated on whether he gave Z-Bo minutes.

Like I said we were drafting Bagley whenever one else was betting on MPJ and Luka or another name out of a hat, this was insight you didn't get elsewhere. This was not blathering, this was Blobian clairvoyance. :cool: Most fans saw Z-Bo as 10-15 MPG bench contributor. But back to the main point: Vlade is incapable of doing his job without a co-GM to compensate for Vlade's flaws. Vlade is more replaceable than Williams. Williams may have spoke out of turn, but we don't know the extent of what transpired yet. Your hero is a paper tiger. Your savior is a charlatan. The ownership knows it and that is why Williams is still gainfully employed.
 
Why do I get a bad feeling it's going to come down to a choice of:

Joeger AND Vlade OR Brandon Williams

I'm getting nervous of what the ownership will decide to be the eventual outcome. :oops:
 
You can not deal with insubordination like this.

You have to rule with an iron fist.

Vlade stop flopping and make the right play.

Vivek, now would be the time to step in if you ever were going to.
 
Number one, you are being rude. Number two, there is no point in having a forthright debate with you. You defend everything and every player on this team. You defend the coach at every turn. You defend the GM at every turn. Of course you are going to take issue with my opinion. I am willing to criticize this team. You are not. My analysis is based on piecing together bits of evidence, I am not pulling monkeys out of my butt. Of course someone who is unwilling to criticize her team is going to have a problem with someone who is willing to criticize the team................................... I I I MY I I I MY I I I I MY I IIIIIIIIIIII blah blah blah
If anybody wants to see what narcissism looks like just read that post of yours and some of your other diatribes.

Can we change your username from Blob to Blowhard?

You do make some good points in this post and some of your others (along with some good predictions) but they're so saturated in narcissism that it's really hard to take you seriously. You're just the guy that blathers on for several paragraphs congratulating himself over and over, since apparently nobody else will do it for you. Nobody should use the words "I" and "MY" to such an extraordinary amount.

Your opinion would be a little more valued if you stopped telling everybody how valuable it is and let the results speak for themselves.
 
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so williams wanted bagley and yogi
and vlade got us fox, giles, buddy, bogey, bjelica, and wanted luka over bagley. if owning a bed and breakfast leads to those decisions im fine with him over williams

It’s amazing how some people defend Vlade. I can name a number of gaffs since he’s been GM.

Vlade did not get Fox. He was drafted. Any GM would have taken him.
Buddy was part of the Cousins trade. Which, was a disaster. Essentially, Vlade could have traded a perennial All star for a lot more the season before.
Hield is a good player. But. He is not an All Star.
Besides Fox, Vlade trades down for..JJJ(Garbage) and Giles(Unknown what he’ll be at this point)
Bjelica is a very average stretch 4. Who actually looks very bad over the past month.
Bogdan was a nice pick up. But, he’s definitely on the older side.
 
It’s amazing how some people defend Vlade. I can name a number of gaffs since he’s been GM.

Vlade did not get Fox. He was drafted. Any GM would have taken him.
Buddy was part of the Cousins trade. Which, was a disaster. Essentially, Vlade could have traded a perennial All star for a lot more the season before.
Hield is a good player. But. He is not an All Star.
Besides Fox, Vlade trades down for..JJJ(Garbage) and Giles(Unknown what he’ll be at this point)
Bjelica is a very average stretch 4. Who actually looks very bad over the past month.
Bogdan was a nice pick up. But, he’s definitely on the older side.
Any GM would have taken Fox? So why did Phoenix take Josh jackson over Fox when they have needed a PG for a long time?

Bjelica is a role player and being paid as such. Solid signing.

What about that Bogdanović trade. Bogdan is a huge piece for our core.
 
Number one, you are being rude. Number two, there is no point in having a forthright debate with you. You defend everything and every player on this team. You defend the coach at every turn. You defend the GM at every turn. Of course you are going to take issue with my opinion. I am willing to criticize this team. You are not. My analysis is based on piecing together bits of evidence, I am not pulling monkeys out of my butt. Of course someone who is unwilling to criticize her team is going to have a problem with someone who is willing to criticize the team.

You love Vlade as a player. That's fine I don't begrudge you that. But that doesn't make him immune to criticism as GM. He gave away the farm including our unprotected pick for cap space, chased broken down players, botched the Boogie trade, signed washed up free agents like Afflalo, Hill and Z-Bo, refused to work the phones, has poor command of the English language in a job that requires savvy subtle negotiation, and he is someone you want to place your complete trust and faith? That's like trusting your car repair to a pastry chef.

With that said, he doesn't have to perfect for us to turn the corner. I said a trained monkey could have picked De Aaron at #5, who I placed a franchise tag on before his first pro game. It was the #10 pick that required prudence. Henceforth, when everyone was going left I was going right. I was applauding his moves over the last 6 months controversial moves like drafting Bagley and chasing Lavine, and now here we are hovering around .500. But that doesn't make him a messiah.

Suppose you hopped over to the Milwaukee Bucks Forum. One fan loves every player, overlooks every lackadaisical play and mental blunder and defends every questionable draft pick. Then you have another fan that hands out praise only when there is preponderance of evidence while also questioning the team or player when progress and improvement is slow to nonexistent. Who are you more likely to trust? Who do you think is able to set aside their rooting bias to do an accurate assessment? Who is not blinded by emotion? You are the first fan. I am the second fan. That's is neither good or bad in an ultimate sense, that is just the way it is.

I only dislike two players on this team: Willie and Jackson. I don't go out of my way to hand out verbal smackdowns. I like and support every other player on this roster, for the time being at least, which may be a record over the last decade. Oh, I don't dislike Koufos, but I don't want to see him play either. Further, though I have been highly critical of Joerger and Vlade, I don't want either to lose their job. The coach in particular has been commendable. I forecast he was coaching for his career this season, and it would be predicated on whether he gave Z-Bo minutes.

Like I said we were drafting Bagley whenever one else was betting on MPJ and Luka or another name out of a hat, this was insight you didn't get elsewhere. This was not blathering, this was Blobian clairvoyance. :cool: Most fans saw Z-Bo as 10-15 MPG bench contributor. But back to the main point: Vlade is incapable of doing his job without a co-GM to compensate for Vlade's flaws. Vlade is more replaceable than Williams. Williams may have spoke out of turn, but we don't know the extent of what transpired yet. Your hero is a paper tiger. Your savior is a charlatan. The ownership knows it and that is why Williams is still gainfully employed.
Man you write long posts
 
It’s amazing how some people defend Vlade. I can name a number of gaffs since he’s been GM.

Vlade did not get Fox. He was drafted. Any GM would have taken him.
Buddy was part of the Cousins trade. Which, was a disaster. Essentially, Vlade could have traded a perennial All star for a lot more the season before.
Hield is a good player. But. He is not an All Star.
Besides Fox, Vlade trades down for..JJJ(Garbage) and Giles(Unknown what he’ll be at this point)
Bjelica is a very average stretch 4. Who actually looks very bad over the past month.
Bogdan was a nice pick up. But, he’s definitely on the older side.
Clearly very objective. Gaffs lolls

I defend Vlade. It is easy. He he been successful. The team is better ahead of schedule.

Of course if I deny him credit for things that went pretty well, and heap blame for things I was hoping would go terribly wrong but won’t (top 5 2019 pick) ... then yeah - he can be made to look bad.
 
Number one, you are being rude. Number two, there is no point in having a forthright debate with you. You defend everything and every player on this team. You defend the coach at every turn. You defend the GM at every turn. Of course you are going to take issue with my opinion. I am willing to criticize this team. You are not. My analysis is based on piecing together bits of evidence, I am not pulling monkeys out of my butt. Of course someone who is unwilling to criticize her team is going to have a problem with someone who is willing to criticize the team.

You love Vlade as a player. That's fine I don't begrudge you that. But that doesn't make him immune to criticism as GM. He gave away the farm including our unprotected pick for cap space, chased broken down players, botched the Boogie trade, signed washed up free agents like Afflalo, Hill and Z-Bo, refused to work the phones, has poor command of the English language in a job that requires savvy subtle negotiation, and he is someone you want to place your complete trust and faith? That's like trusting your car repair to a pastry chef.

With that said, he doesn't have to perfect for us to turn the corner. I said a trained monkey could have picked De Aaron at #5, who I placed a franchise tag on before his first pro game. It was the #10 pick that required prudence. Henceforth, when everyone was going left I was going right. I was applauding his moves over the last 6 months controversial moves like drafting Bagley and chasing Lavine, and now here we are hovering around .500. But that doesn't make him a messiah.

Suppose you hopped over to the Milwaukee Bucks Forum. One fan loves every player, overlooks every lackadaisical play and mental blunder and defends every questionable draft pick. Then you have another fan that hands out praise only when there is preponderance of evidence while also questioning the team or player when progress and improvement is slow to nonexistent. Who are you more likely to trust? Who do you think is able to set aside their rooting bias to do an accurate assessment? Who is not blinded by emotion? You are the first fan. I am the second fan. That's is neither good or bad in an ultimate sense, that is just the way it is.

I only dislike two players on this team: Willie and Jackson. I don't go out of my way to hand out verbal smackdowns. I like and support every other player on this roster, for the time being at least, which may be a record over the last decade. Oh, I don't dislike Koufos, but I don't want to see him play either. Further, though I have been highly critical of Joerger and Vlade, I don't want either to lose their job. The coach in particular has been commendable. I forecast he was coaching for his career this season, and it would be predicated on whether he gave Z-Bo minutes.

Like I said we were drafting Bagley whenever one else was betting on MPJ and Luka or another name out of a hat, this was insight you didn't get elsewhere. This was not blathering, this was Blobian clairvoyance. :cool: Most fans saw Z-Bo as 10-15 MPG bench contributor. But back to the main point: Vlade is incapable of doing his job without a co-GM to compensate for Vlade's flaws. Vlade is more replaceable than Williams. Williams may have spoke out of turn, but we don't know the extent of what transpired yet. Your hero is a paper tiger. Your savior is a charlatan. The ownership knows it and that is why Williams is still gainfully employed.
so if Williams is running the show and has support of ownership, why cant he fire Joerger then like he has reportedly wanted to for a while? does he not know where HR offices are? i mean he has been there for over a year now. and if he cannot find the office, he can just call them up cause he is good at working the phones. obviously he is a native speaker so he knows how to say "we will not be needing Coach Joerger's services anymore" so its not that. I love a good mystery. ;)
 
It’s amazing how some people defend Vlade. I can name a number of gaffs since he’s been GM.

Vlade did not get Fox. He was drafted. Any GM would have taken him.
Buddy was part of the Cousins trade. Which, was a disaster. Essentially, Vlade could have traded a perennial All star for a lot more the season before.
Hield is a good player. But. He is not an All Star.
Besides Fox, Vlade trades down for..JJJ(Garbage) and Giles(Unknown what he’ll be at this point)
Bjelica is a very average stretch 4. Who actually looks very bad over the past month.
Bogdan was a nice pick up. But, he’s definitely on the older side.
Vlade made the trade that allowed us to get Fox in the first place. Yes, ripping the bandaid off the Cousins experiment.
 
On the surface it feels like the Malone situation when we look at it through our Kings focal point. But this IS how it went down in Memphis for Joerger when he was looking for a contract extension. Things leaking out into the media, etc.

This is an article Jason Jones linked in the Athletic about the firing of Joeger in Memphis. Same issues. Arguments with FO. Disagreement on roster moves. Player development or playing time.

https://www.nba.com/grizzlies/news/grizzlies-q-a-chris-wallace-160507
 
Number one, you are being rude. Number two, there is no point in having a forthright debate with you. You defend everything and every player on this team. You defend the coach at every turn. You defend the GM at every turn. Of course you are going to take issue with my opinion. I am willing to criticize this team. You are not. My analysis is based on piecing together bits of evidence, I am not pulling monkeys out of my butt. Of course someone who is unwilling to criticize her team is going to have a problem with someone who is willing to criticize the team.

You love Vlade as a player. That's fine I don't begrudge you that. But that doesn't make him immune to criticism as GM. He gave away the farm including our unprotected pick for cap space, chased broken down players, botched the Boogie trade, signed washed up free agents like Afflalo, Hill and Z-Bo, refused to work the phones, has poor command of the English language in a job that requires savvy subtle negotiation, and he is someone you want to place your complete trust and faith? That's like trusting your car repair to a pastry chef.

With that said, he doesn't have to perfect for us to turn the corner. I said a trained monkey could have picked De Aaron at #5, who I placed a franchise tag on before his first pro game. It was the #10 pick that required prudence. Henceforth, when everyone was going left I was going right. I was applauding his moves over the last 6 months controversial moves like drafting Bagley and chasing Lavine, and now here we are hovering around .500. But that doesn't make him a messiah.

Suppose you hopped over to the Milwaukee Bucks Forum. One fan loves every player, overlooks every lackadaisical play and mental blunder and defends every questionable draft pick. Then you have another fan that hands out praise only when there is preponderance of evidence while also questioning the team or player when progress and improvement is slow to nonexistent. Who are you more likely to trust? Who do you think is able to set aside their rooting bias to do an accurate assessment? Who is not blinded by emotion? You are the first fan. I am the second fan. That's is neither good or bad in an ultimate sense, that is just the way it is.

I only dislike two players on this team: Willie and Jackson. I don't go out of my way to hand out verbal smackdowns. I like and support every other player on this roster, for the time being at least, which may be a record over the last decade. Oh, I don't dislike Koufos, but I don't want to see him play either. Further, though I have been highly critical of Joerger and Vlade, I don't want either to lose their job. The coach in particular has been commendable. I forecast he was coaching for his career this season, and it would be predicated on whether he gave Z-Bo minutes.

Like I said we were drafting Bagley whenever one else was betting on MPJ and Luka or another name out of a hat, this was insight you didn't get elsewhere. This was not blathering, this was Blobian clairvoyance. :cool: Most fans saw Z-Bo as 10-15 MPG bench contributor. But back to the main point: Vlade is incapable of doing his job without a co-GM to compensate for Vlade's flaws. Vlade is more replaceable than Williams. Williams may have spoke out of turn, but we don't know the extent of what transpired yet. Your hero is a paper tiger. Your savior is a charlatan. The ownership knows it and that is why Williams is still gainfully employed.
No, she’s right. It’s your shtick. If your going to dish some of this stuff out, then be prepared to be countered.
 
If anybody wants to see what narcissism looks like just read that post of yours and some of your other diatribes.

Can we change your username from Blob to Blowhard?

You do make some good points in this post and some of your others (along with some good predictions) but they're so saturated in narcissism that it's really hard to take you seriously. You're just the guy that blathers on for several paragraphs congratulating himself over and over, since apparently nobody else will do it for you. Nobody should use the words "I" and "MY" to such an extraordinary amount.

Your opinion would be a little more valued if you stopped telling everybody how valuable it is and let the results speak for themselves.
Actually, I still wouldn’t value the opinion because i just pass over these posts.
 
Vlade could've been fired last year and it would be fair. His moves and overall pr has sucked. But it would be stupid to can him now unless there is a better solution in place. The team is young and looking up.

Similarly, the only reason Joeger came into the year with job security is for continuity. It would be hard to look at last year's play style and performance as a success. But this year the team has made a complete 180, and it would be stupid to can him.

It is possible this Williams fellow is the driving force behind the new pace system, but I can't see Joeger being told what to do. I can definitely see Joeger being a pita in order to secure a commitment. I want him to stay, but don't believe he's 100% an innocent angel being targeted by the guys upstairs. Especially with how things went down in MEM. Everybody wants more power and leverage, so go for it when the team is doing well.

There's got to he more to this.
 
While Vlade supports Joerger, it is also possible that the front office, including Vlade, had issues with Joerger’s coaching last year. Now, this year, Vlade is happy with Joerger’s results but Williams is still pushing for an eventual coaching upgrade. In this scenario, it is possible to see that both Vivek and Vlade would be hesitant to fire Williams. Especially if they believe he is otherwise doing a great job. But the longer they let this go, the more it festers.
 
Any GM would have taken Fox? So why did Phoenix take Josh jackson over Fox when they have needed a PG for a long time?

Bjelica is a role player and being paid as such. Solid signing.

What about that Bogdanović trade. Bogdan is a huge piece for our core.
Fox was the consensus after Phoenix picked Jackson I would say

The drafts/trades/ signings have been questionable IMO outside of Fox/Buddy/Bogdan, with Fox IMO being consensus and the Kings getting initially panned for Cousins return (Buddy)

Doncic looking like a beast player would’ve sealed any deal for me personally, and maybe Vivek. That’s when we started hearing about this stuff. The 2 pick was a crucial decision that had to go right for jobs, and Dave vouched for Bagley too. It was an important decision. Bagley is improving and looks to be a good player, but you can’t have Luke looking like a top 5 potential player
 
On the surface it feels like the Malone situation when we look at it through our Kings focal point. But this IS how it went down in Memphis for Joerger when he was looking for a contract extension. Things leaking out into the media, etc.

This is an article Jason Jones linked in the Athletic about the firing of Joeger in Memphis. Same issues. Arguments with FO. Disagreement on roster moves. Player development or playing time.

https://www.nba.com/grizzlies/news/grizzlies-q-a-chris-wallace-160507
In all fairness, Chris Wallace has been one of the worst GM's in recent memory. After Hollins was ushered out at the behest of front office executives Jason Levien and Stu Lash who wanted then assistant coach Joerger to replace him, owner Robert Pera reportedly wanted to fire coach Joerger. FIVE games into his tenure as the head coach.

A year later, Levien and Lash were let go and Chris Wallace took over as GM for a second time. So Joerger now had an owner who had wanted him gone immediately after his promotion, and his two supporters in the front office were gone. Mind you, Pera had wanted to implement some kind of headset system with Joerger akin to the NFL where he would answer in real time to someone (Pera? Wallace?) to which Dave of course was highly opposed. No wonder the owner and Joerger were at odds from the jump.

Just trying to point out that while there may seem to be similarities right now with the Memphis situation, things are usually more nuanced than first glance might show.

I keep remembering the very recent quote from Joerger when asked about something to do with the rotations this season where he replied " I serve many masters." Has stuck in my head ever since.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/5/7/11616192/dave-joerger-fired-grizzlies-money-kings
 
In all fairness, Chris Wallace has been one of the worst GM's in recent memory. After Hollins was ushered out at the behest of front office executives Jason Levien and Stu Lash who wanted then assistant coach Joerger to replace him, owner Robert Pera reportedly wanted to fire coach Joerger. FIVE games into his tenure as the head coach.

A year later, Levien and Lash were let go and Chris Wallace took over as GM for a second time. So Joerger now had an owner who had wanted him gone immediately after his promotion, and his two supporters in the front office were gone. Mind you, Pera had wanted to implement some kind of headset system with Joerger akin to the NFL where he would answer in real time to someone (Pera? Wallace?) to which Dave of course was highly opposed. No wonder the owner and Joerger were at odds from the jump.

Just trying to point out that while there may seem to be similarities right now with the Memphis situation, things are usually more nuanced than first glance might show.

I keep remembering the very recent quote from Joerger when asked about something to do with the rotations this season where he replied " I serve many masters." Has stuck in my head ever since.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/5/7/11616192/dave-joerger-fired-grizzlies-money-kings
Things are absolutely always more nuanced. That was my point. I like his personality, the team is winning, therefore my guy is automatically right is a stance based on superficial reasoning.

But regardless, Joegers complaints are the same. There is a pattern with the Kings, but there is also a pattern with Joeger. As of today, the team is willing to stick it out with Williams. There is a reason and all we can do is speculate. But it's obviously not a black and white situation in the eyes of the FO.

It's quite possible Dave has been overreacting based on his past experiences.
 
On the surface it feels like the Malone situation when we look at it through our Kings focal point. But this IS how it went down in Memphis for Joerger when he was looking for a contract extension. Things leaking out into the media, etc.

This is an article Jason Jones linked in the Athletic about the firing of Joeger in Memphis. Same issues. Arguments with FO. Disagreement on roster moves. Player development or playing time.

https://www.nba.com/grizzlies/news/grizzlies-q-a-chris-wallace-160507
Very good point, and something I have thought about as well
 
In all fairness, Chris Wallace has been one of the worst GM's in recent memory. After Hollins was ushered out at the behest of front office executives Jason Levien and Stu Lash who wanted then assistant coach Joerger to replace him, owner Robert Pera reportedly wanted to fire coach Joerger. FIVE games into his tenure as the head coach.

A year later, Levien and Lash were let go and Chris Wallace took over as GM for a second time. So Joerger now had an owner who had wanted him gone immediately after his promotion, and his two supporters in the front office were gone. Mind you, Pera had wanted to implement some kind of headset system with Joerger akin to the NFL where he would answer in real time to someone (Pera? Wallace?) to which Dave of course was highly opposed. No wonder the owner and Joerger were at odds from the jump.

Just trying to point out that while there may seem to be similarities right now with the Memphis situation, things are usually more nuanced than first glance might show.

I keep remembering the very recent quote from Joerger when asked about something to do with the rotations this season where he replied " I serve many masters." Has stuck in my head ever since.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/5/7/11616192/dave-joerger-fired-grizzlies-money-kings

And Vlade is a competent GM? Really?