Monday, Oct. 10: vs. Maccabi Haifa-Israel

Again, your opinion is not fact around here. If you think you "won" in your eyes. Congratulations! Go have a beer to celebrate, but the fact is we both have provided ample evidence across many topics. The difference between us is that you are very absolute and select your evidence to make a point.

In regards to Ben, strength does not equal success in this league. Ben's biggest issue has been IQ & mental. You see a deadlift of 500lbs from his Instagram account and some reports that McLemore has been working hard in the offseason (during a time where he may or may not have been involved in trades to increase his value) and you eat it up. McLemore has always been a gym rat. He has always been a hard worker off the court. That was one of his pluses coming out of college. It remains to be seen if he can actually play the game of basketball at a high level. For him to stick in this league, he needs to improve his mental game. Do you disagree?

It's pointless continuing to bring up the trade because we're on both ends of the spectrum. I value the strategic portion of cap space, manageable contracts, and increasing the chances of having a lottery pick, and you are banking on the progression of a 4 year player who's biggest leap is mental. That's fine. We have our differences. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours...


In regards to Duncan & Ewing, please show me where I accused you of saying that Duncan or Ewing were inefficient? If you're going to try and belittle my post, at least have the intellect to understand it.

Just to be clear, I was helping your argument. You took a very iffy stance as to the Duncan/Ewing vs. Cousins point (saying that I would estimate a 54% TS% back then is equal to a 56% TS today), and I backed it up with better evidence. Last time I do you a favor...sheesh

You are misrepresenting my opinion on Ben. My projection for him was based on more than deadlifting 500 pounds. And you are also wrong to say we are on different ends of the spectrum, when you want to give him away for peanuts, and I contended before camp there a 50/50 chance he would make the rotation. That's hardly a ringing endorsement of future stardom. You don't think I see his flaws as a player, mentally and physically?!? Gimme a break, man, I outlined them pretty thoroughly in the original post in that thread.

Let me state this one last time for you and be done with it: Ben has a chance to be a player in this league as a late bloomer, with strength catching up to athleticism, and experience
over three seasons finally resulting in a positive return on investment. He's a player who needed to be nurtured, he needed to go from kid to man, from timid gangly wide eyed babe to confident and assertive performer. It's not too late. That's what the coaching staff and Vlade sees. That's what I see. That's the extent of it.

To put a finer point on it than that (including your citing advanced stats in pre-season over a three game period) is spinning wheels in the mud.
 
Last edited:
You are misrepresenting my opinion on Ben. My projection for him was based on more than deadlifting 500 pounds. And you are also wrong to say we are on different ends of the spectrum, when you want to give him away for peanuts, and I contended before camp there a 50/50 chance he would make the rotation. That's hardly a ringing endorsement of future stardom. You don't think I see his flaws as a player, mentally and physically?!? Gimme a break, man, I outlined them pretty thoroughly in the original post in that thread.

Let me state this one last time for you and be done with it: Ben has a chance to be a player in this league as a late bloomer, with strength catching up to athleticism, and experience
over three seasons finally resulting in a positive return on investment. He's a player who needed to be nurtured, he needed to go from kid to man, from timid gangly wide eyed babe to confident and assertive performer. It's not too late. That's what the coaching staff and Vlade sees. That's what I see. That's the extent of it.

To put a finer point on it than that (including your citing advanced stats in pre-season over a three game period) is spinning wheels in the mud.
But am I though? What evidence have we seen that his IQ has improved? Working hard in the gym doesn't necessarily cover this facet of the game...

Peanuts is your opinion, and one I would expect you to have as you rank McLemore higher than most. That's fine. I'm not sure why you feel the need to beat a dead horse, but it's something you are very good at ;)

You praised McLemore. All I was doing was pointing out the very stats you have used to gauge Cousins this past year. Peculiar how they no longer become relevant when they go against you. If you're going to be a "truth seeker," how about starting with the truth?

Also, no apology for attacking my post when you clearly misinterpreted the bulk of it? You said you're not afraid to admit when you're wrong. Well I guess that's just one more thing you haven't been "truthful" about...
 
I don't think I am better than anyone else, but I think my opinions on the Kings are. ;) In regards to Boogie, those advanced stats are informative and function of the wide variance he displayed, including a magical first of half of January, a fall off the cliff the latter half of that month, and a December that put us behind the 8-ball when we gave away winnable games against crummy opponents. In retrospect, his health and weight was an issue, which was speculation (criticism) at the time on my part with regards to the consistency of his effort, his temperament and immaturity.

When adversity would strike in form of a ref who "wouldn't give him a break" or formidable front line that made it challenging for Boogie to bulldoze to the hoop, he would press the issue. Where patience and discipline and savvy was needed, he lost his composure and would shoot his team out of games, get frustrated with misses and take frustration out through half-hearted defense effort and sour disposition. The stats do not reflect this directly, but indirectly this is why his efficiency suffered: (1) health and fitness (2) poise and maturity.

I bring this up because whether you play Boogie at PF or C, with Koufos or Willie, at the three point line, the low post or high post, growth in this area in particular less variance between on and off games, all-world and all YMCA, is going to a predictive variable as to how far this team goes. It has always been my contention that for the Kings to make the playoffs, which I think they are capable of doing, not only does the supporting cast around Boogie have to improve (including coaching), Boogie has to be better too. This is the argument I've had with Bricklayer and fans who think the source of underachievement are variables surrounding Boogie, and he is immune from criticism. This is non-sense.

I agree with your sentiment:



A 53.8% TS (scoring efficiency), a 0.7 assist to turnover (passing efficiency), and guarding his man 6 out of 10 possessions instead of 9 out of 10, especially when his usage was an astronomical 35.4% is not going to lead team anywhere but the lottery. The only way those efficiency numbers and approximate defensive effort gets you anywhere would be hypothetically if his usage dipped below 25% and his supporting cast picked up the slack at a plus level.

The high post offense, Affalo, incorporating rather than excluding Rudy, suggest Boogie's usage is likely to come down. This is important. The team needs to compete and win on nights he doesn't go for 33/16. And on nights Boogie shoots 15 FGAs instead of 25 FGAs. And relatedly Boogie can't feel like he needs to dominate offensively. He has to have more confidence and trust in the system and his teammates. Unless Boogie was a masterful low post scorer with an array of high percentage moves, and those paying attention know he doesn't possess Hakeem or Ewing-like post skills, it is unacceptable and unreasonable for Boogie to have such a soaring usage.

Sharing the wealth and getting best shot on every possession is a matter of planning (coaching) and execution (players), and doing so consistently will be a predictor of the season. Accordingly, the benchmarks for success for Cousins (as they have been for the past three seasons!) are 55% TS or better and 1.0 assist to turnover or better, consistent defensive effort and usage around 25%. I would even be okay with a 0.8 to 0.9 assist to turnover if Boogie scores the ball with an efficiency I think he is capable of. I think with the rate at which he gets fouled (best in NBA besides Harden), and if he gets better a shot selection that he started to show in the latter half of last season, I think he can be 56% to 58% TS.

For all the discussion about system and rotation and starting line-ups, it still is going to come down to how our best player performs. We have a new arena and coach and new sources of optimism, but some things remain the same.

If you believed in Boogie's maturity, why were you hoping for a trade this summer though? Or for another GM to be "suckered" by his stats (GMs dont get "suckered", and Boogie is/was undervalued). Did you not believe putting him in a more functional environment would help him grow?
 
That's an interesting interpretation.

To be clear, TWSlam07 took the initiative to provide data to support what I knew to be true. The change in rules related to allowable defensive contact and emphasis on three point shot have contributed to a fairly linear increase in TS% around the league over couple of decades. In my mind that was not a "hypothesis....I needed prove". Its a fact.

That plot I put up sure makes it look like the increase in TS% ended in about 1980. There was one blip in the late '90s, possibly due to rule changes, but certainly nothing resembling a "couple of decade" linear increase in TS% over the last 35 years.
 
But am I though? What evidence have we seen that his IQ has improved? Working hard in the gym doesn't necessarily cover this facet of the game...

Peanuts is your opinion, and one I would expect you to have as you rank McLemore higher than most. That's fine. I'm not sure why you feel the need to beat a dead horse, but it's something you are very good at ;)

You praised McLemore. All I was doing was pointing out the very stats you have used to gauge Cousins this past year. Peculiar how they no longer become relevant when they go against you. If you're going to be a "truth seeker," how about starting with the truth?

Also, no apology for attacking my post when you clearly misinterpreted the bulk of it? You said you're not afraid to admit when you're wrong. Well I guess that's just one more thing you haven't been "truthful" about...

Lol you are a piece of work. You want an apology? Lol for what.....? Listen, I am cool and chill with passionate Kings fans and you are clearly one of them. I am done with this debate for now.....I am sure I will run into you again once the season begins. Cheers Blob
 
That plot I put up sure makes it look like the increase in TS% ended in about 1980. There was one blip in the late '90s, possibly due to rule changes, but certainly nothing resembling a "couple of decade" linear increase in TS% over the last 35 years.
I think I said "mostly linear"...its not a straight line, but the increase is undeniable.
 
If you believed in Boogie's maturity, why were you hoping for a trade this summer though? Or for another GM to be "suckered" by his stats (GMs dont get "suckered", and Boogie is/was undervalued). Did you not believe putting him in a more functional environment would help him grow?
The trade I was hoping for was a "Kings Ransom", in other words if we made out like bandits, I was in favor of peddling him away. This was always my contention, not to give him away but sell high if another team wanted to overpay. In regards to your latter question, I think the Joerger system that reduces his usage will improve his efficiency. This is a good thing for him and the team.
 
Lol you are a piece of work. You want an apology? Lol for what.....? Listen, I am cool and chill with passionate Kings fans and you are clearly one of them. I am done with this debate for now.....I am sure I will run into you again once the season begins. Cheers Blob
How about the fact that I provided more concrete evidence that supported your statement and you decided to belittle my post because you thought I was trying to make a point against you. I guess it's too much to ask you to stay true to your word.

Is it borderline trolling to argue for the sake or arguing (even when I'm helping your argument)? I'll let the mods decide...
 
Last edited:
How about the fact that I provided more concrete evidence that supported your statement and you decided to belittle my post because you thought I was trying to make a point against you. I guess it's too much to ask you to stay true to your word.

Is it borderline trolling to argue for the sake or arguing (even when I'm helping your argument)? I'll let the mods decide...

As I said above the exception I took to that post was saying I had a "hypothesis I had to prove". Sorry if I offended you, man.
 
Back
Top