Mitchell Report.. F.P. Santangelo ??
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
I did a search for both. Sosa only comes up once in this paragraph:
During the course of this investigation, we interviewed a number of coaches, club
personnel, former teammates, and other persons who know McGwire. Only Canseco, who
repeated the allegations from his memoir, said he had knowledge of McGwire’s alleged use of
steroids. Through his personal lawyer, I asked McGwire to meet with me for an interview about
these issues, but he declined to do so. I then sent his lawyer a list of specific questions about
whether McGwire had ever used steroids or other performance enhancing substances without a
prescription during his major league career, in the hope that McGwire would be willing to
provide a response outside of the context of an interview. Neither McGwire nor his lawyer
responded to that letter. (I sent similar letters with specific questions to lawyers for Barry Bonds,
Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa, and Gary Sheffield, none of whom provided answers to my
questions either.)
As for McGwire, his name is in there repeatedly in regards to androstenedione, including this:
personnel, former teammates, and other persons who know McGwire. Only Canseco, who
repeated the allegations from his memoir, said he had knowledge of McGwire’s alleged use of
steroids. Through his personal lawyer, I asked McGwire to meet with me for an interview about
these issues, but he declined to do so. I then sent his lawyer a list of specific questions about
whether McGwire had ever used steroids or other performance enhancing substances without a
prescription during his major league career, in the hope that McGwire would be willing to
provide a response outside of the context of an interview. Neither McGwire nor his lawyer
responded to that letter. (I sent similar letters with specific questions to lawyers for Barry Bonds,
Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa, and Gary Sheffield, none of whom provided answers to my
questions either.)
As for McGwire, his name is in there repeatedly in regards to androstenedione, including this:
When Mark McGwire first was asked about the bottle of androstenedione in his
locker, he is reported to have admitted using it, as well as the over-the-counter amino acid
supplement creatine, to assist his workout regimen.
locker, he is reported to have admitted using it, as well as the over-the-counter amino acid
supplement creatine, to assist his workout regimen.
237 McGwire was quoted as having said:
“Everything I’ve done is natural. Everybody that I know in the game of baseball uses the same
stuff I use.”238 He also reportedly stated that “f somebody tells me that it’s illegal and
I shouldn’t be taking it, I will stop.”239
and:
“Everything I’ve done is natural. Everybody that I know in the game of baseball uses the same
stuff I use.”238 He also reportedly stated that “f somebody tells me that it’s illegal and
I shouldn’t be taking it, I will stop.”239
and:
Coverage of McGwire’s use of androstenedione continued for several days after
the initial story, with a number of articles questioning whether it would taint the single-season
home run record. On August 26, 1998, Commissioner Selig and Don Fehr of the Players
Association issued a joint statement in which they stated that the two organizations had asked
their medical experts to “gather the relevant scientific and medical data and to consult with other
experts on the general use of nutritional supplements by major league players.”
the initial story, with a number of articles questioning whether it would taint the single-season
home run record. On August 26, 1998, Commissioner Selig and Don Fehr of the Players
Association issued a joint statement in which they stated that the two organizations had asked
their medical experts to “gather the relevant scientific and medical data and to consult with other
experts on the general use of nutritional supplements by major league players.”
243
Dr. Lewis Maharam, a prominent sports medicine practitioner who is now the
race doctor for the New York City Marathon, was a vocal critic, saying that “f McGwire is
truly taking this, then he’s cheating.” He criticized McGwire for failing to warn young athletes
about the dangers of using andro.
race doctor for the New York City Marathon, was a vocal critic, saying that “f McGwire is
truly taking this, then he’s cheating.” He criticized McGwire for failing to warn young athletes
about the dangers of using andro.
244
Edit - sorry about the funny text size, etc, as when I copy and paste it puts so many tags in there I'm not going to go through and check all of them for uniformity....
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Rockmeister
All-Star
F.P is now on 1140.
uolj
Starter
I don't know anybody who raised an eyebrow.
I'm actually glad that not only is he on the list, but that he is mentioned more than just in passing. Clemens has almost always been one of my least favorite baseball players. The apparent obviousness of his using was disproportionate to the amount of flak he got for it (which as I said earlier is because there was never any official public accusations). That always annoyed me a bit.
As for McGwire and Sosa, I think just because their names aren't there prominently doesn't mean that Mitchell thinks they didn't take steroids. I'm guessing that there are a lot of names that aren't on the list. It seems that most of the people named are based on the BALCO investigation, interviews with Radomski and McNamee, or records from a couple places distributing the stuff. I'm sure there are/were many other forms of distribution that weren't discovered that would lead to more names if and when they are.
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I think this is a very important point. This report isn't all-encompassing. It is (IIRC) a less than 2-year study focusing on a couple sources of information in particular. In no way should it be considered the end-all, be-all report on the topic.
In reading through the report, there are many places where the report is vague, imprecise, or speculative. Per FP, if you can believe him, the brief section on his involvement is at least partially incorrect.
I think this may be a good starting point for a more in-depth and comprehensive investigation, but I doubt it will happen.
John Galt
Starter
can't
AleksandarN
Starter
come on now he was close friends with Jose(the steriod king). Even Jose said Roger was on Juice. But all we hear in the media is about Bonds? Don't tell me it was because of home run race because at the same time Roger was getting attention about how great he was doing at his age and him being a first time HOFer.
uolj
Starter
When did Canseco say Clemens used steroids?
By the way, I've noticed that at least one major news outlet has focused on Clemens (and not just because his lawyer gave a denial already). Why? Because as the "best pitcher of his era" he deserves the extra scrutiny and scorn now that there is real evidence made public.
Please either give your source (whether you compiled it yourself or got it somewhere else) or I will remove it. You should know by now that things like this should be referenced.
Thanks.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Several links have been referenced in this thread.
This one requires reading: http://assets.espn.go.com/media/pdf/071213/mitchell_report.pdf
Here is a summary of the full report: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3153646
Here is an article on our native son: http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/567282.html
uolj
Starter
I think the way this report is being protrayed, or at least the way my mind original viewed it, is as a list of names. But really that is a bad way to view it and I don't think that is how the report was intended.
- Viewing it as a list of names implies that the list is complete. I doubt that it is.
- Viewing it as a list of names implies that all people on the list have been outed as definitive users. This is wrong, the names on the list are just the names that came up during the investigation that have some testimony or evidence linked to them. While it is unlikely that there are many (or any) names on the list that are guilt free, the implication of viewing the report as a list is that it is relatively certain that everybody there is guilty.
- Viewing the report as merely a list ignores the varied amount of wrongdoing that each individual was accused of. From trying HGH once to using it for 7 years, there are different levels of guilt just for those that are actually guilty. Simply viewing a list hides those variations.
- The intent of the report was to document what could be found when investigating the use of performance enhancing drugs in baseball. The intent was not to expose all the cheaters. The naming of names was necessary to give weight to the scope of the issue, but it has the unfortunate side effect of leading people (and the media specifically) to focus on those names rather than the climate surrounding the game.
- During the steroid era there were many players that illegal enhanced their performance.
- Those players included some of the best of all time, as well as many who were not able to perform at the highest level.
- The coaches, management and owners of the teams did very little to stem the growth of the illegal activity, even if they didn't actively promote it.
- The entire era was tainted by the high number of people that played with an unfair advantage.
- If baseball wants to be clean going forward, both the owners and the players must make a much greater effort to reduce this problem.
AleksandarN
Starter
I can't remember but it was a T.V. interview he did a long time ago.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I believe if owners, coaches, trainers , and players knew about this, so did the commissioner. This commissioner has allowed things to slide at the behest of powerful owners and the results or lack of results are the main reason I no longer watch baseball or even give a rat's *** about these "records" that are being set.
Bud Selig will do whatever the rich owners and large market owners want OR will turn a blind eye to the obvious as long as it creates fan excitement. Everybody likes homeruns so why be too inquisitve about why the unbelievable number of homers are being hit?
The likes of Maris, Ruth, and Aaron or their loved ones deserve an apology as does the godfather of Bonds. Their lights no longer shine so bright in our memories because a large number of people thought that doing anything to succeed was OK.
Years from mow, Bonds will look like an incredible hero and the fact that he cheated will be buried deep in the books on the REAL history of this era.
Bud Selig will do whatever the rich owners and large market owners want OR will turn a blind eye to the obvious as long as it creates fan excitement. Everybody likes homeruns so why be too inquisitve about why the unbelievable number of homers are being hit?
The likes of Maris, Ruth, and Aaron or their loved ones deserve an apology as does the godfather of Bonds. Their lights no longer shine so bright in our memories because a large number of people thought that doing anything to succeed was OK.
Years from mow, Bonds will look like an incredible hero and the fact that he cheated will be buried deep in the books on the REAL history of this era.
Gary
All-Star
That's why he is a hypacrite. If he preached against something he still has on his conscience (not coming clean) as long as he had, and as passionate as he had than he is a hypacrite. Not sure if you listen to the Rise Guys, but he would passionatley preach against the stuff after saying that he had never done it..
Now if he was truthful all along, and spoke out against it than I wouldn't have really cared what he said. I would have patted him on the back.
I remember a segment they did re: Jose Canseco's book, and when they had said 90% of the players used F.P. came out and said that he didn't do it so right there it was less than 90% or something.. lies!!
macadocious
Starter
Can anyone give cliff notes of F.P. this morning on 1140???
Thanks, but I just want to have him/her document that specific list in the post. Throwing out a list without a reference to where it came from does nobody any good. Hard to know whether it is correct or not if that isn't provided, and it is "lazy" posting.
AleksandarN
Starter
I actually liked the list. It is better then having to read the whole to see who's in it. Some people patrol way too much. I feel anytime I have editors and lawyers looking over when I type. Warhawk I feel you beaning a little too harsh.
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If he/she is throwing something out there saying "this is the list of HGH/steroid users in the report", it is not too much to ask for how he/she compiled the list. It's the way things are done around here.
I'm sorry, but posting "this is the list" just doesn't cut it.
I am being fair - look at Superman for example. His list was apparently outdated so he removed it. I want to know the source for this list as well. Not too much to ask for a serious topic such as this.
Edit - and I never asked for a correct list to be removed, only that incorrect lists be edited.
uolj
Starter
Yes, but the list might be wrong. All he has to do is post a reference to where it came from.
There was already one list posted in this thread that turned out to be incorrect. Providing the source of the information helps to identify those problems.
Rockmeister
All-Star
I don't think Warhawk is being harsh at all. I think its a rather simple request of referencing a link.
AleksandarN said:
It's standard policy around here for people to post links to material they've found elsewhere. It's even in the Tips for Posting. And, as others have indicated, there are some very good reasons for that policy. You're the one IMHO who is over-reacting. If Warhawk hadn't made that comment, I can guarantee you one of the other moderators would have.
-------------------------------------------------------
Now, back to the topic at hand.
I've been watching the news most of the day and I have to give credit to Santangelo for what he's saying today. I don't know about anyone else but I'd like to hear from the other players. Have them explain - as Santangelo has - why they did it and what they were hoping to accomplish.
No one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. Part of being human is forgiving ourselves and others for the mistake they've made. At least Santangelo is showing remorse and regret and it seems he's being pretty honest about when he used the stuff and why.
If the game is going to survive and go forward, more players IMHO need to take a page out of his book. Regardless of what happened in the past, they need to come clean. Those who do so will be judged much less harshly than those who continue to try and deny it.
Of course, that's just my two cents.
Gary
All-Star
I think you will get a lot of current players denying this more than retired players. Retired players (baseball wise) have really nothing to lose and will look almost like the "hero" for coming clean now. If a current player comes out he will probably be suspended, or banned. They have everything to lose.
I sort of agree with you here.
I don't live in Sacramento, so I don't know the whole scoop on the Santangelo saga, and it doesn't really matter to me. He did what everyone else did: took illegal performance enhancing drugs and then lied about it.
Schilling made a comment that I read earlier, something to the effect of, 'If you did it, just admit it. We live in a very forgiving society, and we just want to put the steroid era behind us. The only way we can do that is if you come clean and help us get this out of the game.' (I'll add, get it out of professional and amateur sports, altogether.)
But that's the whole point. If you made mistakes in the past, they are probably going to surface, especially if you were dumb enough to write a personal check for the drugs (idiots never heard of a paper trail, huh?). Just get it over with and at least you can escape with a little bit of respect and dignity, and maybe the judge will grant you a little bit of leniency. Michael Vick's judge highlighted his dishonesty as a main reason that he received a steeper sentence than his co-defendants, as a matter of fact. Just get it over with, and let's move on.
In general he just went into more detail than what he said yesterday (see my admittedly poor play-by-play summary above or check KHTK.com for the audio). He said that he can totally understand why some listeners were very upset and so on, answered pretty much every question put to him, and said he himself was sick and disgusted with his choice. Also mentioned that the reason he only did it twice for a couple weeks each was for healing injuries and referenced "not being able to look at himself in the mirror" as one/the reason for not using more. He sounds both very ashamed and yet relieved to have this come out. Sounds like CBS has supported his continued employment (one of the guys read a statement regarding the issue - CBS considers this to be something that happened a long time ago and does not affect his performance on the show - paraphrasing here, obviously). He stated that probably due to the very short duration that he took these products he has suffered no/essentially no long term side effects "yet". He said he never supplied anything to anyone either, just passed along a name to one or two folks asking about it (Piatt was an example here, IIRC).
I am not trying to paint this one way or the other but give a relatively impartial accounting of what was said. Y'all can try to read between the lines and make your own decisions.
Now, my opinion: I think there is more to this than he lets on (as far as what he knows about other players using, etc, if you take his word about his use at face value). He kinda waffled a bit about a question on whether he had gone to a doctor first to see about getting a prescription for these type of products legally, stating that he "thinks" he tried and the doctor basically didn't know enough about the effects/ramifications of using them so didn't prescribe anything like that. I may be a bit off in my wording here, but that is how I took his answer.
I do find it curious that as bad as he apparently feels about this and his advice to never do it, he did say yesterday evening (I think) that if he had to make the choice again, he wasn't sure what he'd do.
Edit:
Now, I take this to mean that while he knows what he did was wrong, baseball was all he knew and loved. He apparently did not take it to break records, but to heal from injury and just continue to be able to play. He said that two years after taking HGH he was batting something like .197 (a quick check shows his 2000 and 2001 average was .197 - http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=santaf01), so if he was going to try to make it big $$$-wise, why wouldn't he have done it again.
I think he's coming clean as far as he thinks he can without giving up names, etc. Whether this is good enough for some folks or not is up to them to decide. I personally have not come to a final opinion on all this yet. I wonder if there would be any bruhaha over this had he been able to get a legal prescription, and if he tried and wasn't able to get one, what does that say about either his admissions on the radio or maybe his honesty to us. Maybe he's telling the truth, as much as he is willing to share at this point.
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I was thinking this morning about this. If I were a baseball player in the late 1980s - early 2000's, I would have been taking steroids. No doubt about it. MLB wasn't testing until 2004(?). They still don't test for HGH, because there's no reliable way to test for it that the Player's Association will approve. The only way you would have gotten in trouble would have been if you were caught red-handed.
I can't really blame the players who did this, because baseball let them do it. They had to know what was going on, and did nothing to try to prevent it.
That's the distinction I make between MLB and the NFL. The NFL has been very proactive about trying to keep illegal performance enhancing drugs out of its league. Not to say that no one is taking them; we have seen that that's not the case. But the NFL will be able to say that they didn't just turn their heads and allow this to overtake their sport. MLB will not have that benefit.
Rockmeister
All-Star
All I can say is I am sooo glad my favorite player is not on the list.
I think Santangelo has done as much as he needs. He admitted his errors, he even said why he did what he did. At this point, I don't see any reason to belabor it. He made a mistake; he knows it, we know it, and what is probably toughest, his kids know it.
I think we've all had to confess to something we would much rather have never talked about at some point or another. Santangelo is OUT of the game of baseball and isn't in any of the record books. He is, by reports and appearances, just a guy who loved the game of baseball and didn't want to have to face leaving the game. I can't think of anything more than would be gained by continuing to crucify him over this.
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