MARVIN BAGLEY III

lame.

also, fox should be playing.
the other young guys need him out there runnin the show.
hes not "too good" for summer league, big let down.
I don’t have a problem with the most important player on this team sitting out summer league. It’s not even preseason.

If Fox goes down we’re gonna really be catastrophically set back with the teams bonding and cohesiveness. While Fox may be a sophomore he’s the franchise right now. Bagley or Giles may eventually be better but everything goes thru Fox and especially in the beginning he will help Bagley and Giles get easier baskets
 
That's not saying much, most players have better starts than Ben. Ben was garbage from early on. Let's look at some details. Skal played in 60 games (28 of them starts) last season compared to 33 (12 starts) the year before that, so almost double and he played about 2 minutes more per game, up from 18.5 to 20.7...

-Field goal attempts went up from 6.6 to 7.6 but FG% went from 54% to 45%. Awful
-He shot way more threes last year and hit only 35% of them. This is supposed to be a strong suit
-Free throw attempts actually went down from 2.2 his rookie year to just 2 attempts a game last year (he did have a higher % last year though)
-Rebounds per game decreased from 4.9 to 4.8 (even with Cousins gone, still couldn't rebound)
-Blocks and assists did go up

To sum it up: He played more minutes, started more games and had a bigger role. He responded by shooting 9% percent worse, rebounded less, short a worse percentage with threes, and had less free throw attempts. His assists do go up and along with his block rate so I give him credit there. Overall though, very disappointing.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/labissk01.html
The days of thinking Skal is a starter are gone now. But there’s still plenty of potential for him to be a great (yes great) versatile big off the bench. He works hard, has a great motor and character. As reported he’s always working on his game in Sacramento during every off season. He rebounds better the WCS and shoots better than him. He actually isn’t a bad shot blocker either, and shows more effort to block shots than WCS. If his 3pt shot keeps improving he would be a great bench 4/5.
 
That's not saying much, most players have better starts than Ben. Ben was garbage from early on. Let's look at some details. Skal played in 60 games (28 of them starts) last season compared to 33 (12 starts) the year before that, so almost double and he played about 2 minutes more per game, up from 18.5 to 20.7...

-Field goal attempts went up from 6.6 to 7.6 but FG% went from 54% to 45%. Awful
-He shot way more threes last year and hit only 35% of them. This is supposed to be a strong suit
-Free throw attempts actually went down from 2.2 his rookie year to just 2 attempts a game last year (he did have a higher % last year though)
-Rebounds per game decreased from 4.9 to 4.8 (even with Cousins gone, still couldn't rebound)
-Blocks and assists did go up

To sum it up: He played more minutes, started more games and had a bigger role. He responded by shooting 9% percent worse, rebounded less, short a worse percentage with threes, and had less free throw attempts. His assists do go up and along with his block rate so I give him credit there. Overall though, very disappointing.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/labissk01.html
I wouldn’t call year two as great, but looking at the pure numbers it’s not all that bad. As you said, he took a lot more threes. The fact that his 3 pt percentage held stong at 35% is actually a good thing. I believe that is about a league average percentage. He pushes that up and increases efficiency a little bit, you actually have a very desirable player off the bench. Channing Frye has made a 14 year career shooting 38% from three as a big man....9 points, 5 rebounds, in 23 minutes per game. Sound familiar?
 
What have you guys thought about Bagley's defense up until this point?

I think his defensive awareness problems on the perimeter have been fully evident but he's impressed me with his interior defense. Small sample size but he's basically doubled his shot blocking percentage from college so far in summer league. He did a good job fronting Ayton and defended a handful of pick and rolls a lot better than I expected him to.

I'm curious to see how Bagley fares defending at the 5 in the NBA. He may not be a total lost cause with his short wingspan like we thought. If he can play the 5, it'll open up things a lot more roster wise.
 
What have you guys thought about Bagley's defense up until this point?

I think his defensive awareness problems on the perimeter have been fully evident but he's impressed me with his interior defense. Small sample size but he's basically doubled his shot blocking percentage from college so far in summer league. He did a good job fronting Ayton and defended a handful of pick and rolls a lot better than I expected him to.

I'm curious to see how Bagley fares defending at the 5 in the NBA. He may not be a total lost cause with his short wingspan like we thought. If he can play the 5, it'll open up things a lot more roster wise.
I see the potential for him and Giles to be switchable on any position on the floor defensively. Bagley looks like he won’t be short on effort and physically has the tools to be able to do all of that. Film room and weight room work and we’ll see if he can fulfill that potential.
 
That's not saying much, most players have better starts than Ben. Ben was garbage from early on. Let's look at some details. Skal played in 60 games (28 of them starts) last season compared to 33 (12 starts) the year before that, so almost double and he played about 2 minutes more per game, up from 18.5 to 20.7...

-Field goal attempts went up from 6.6 to 7.6 but FG% went from 54% to 45%. Awful
-He shot way more threes last year and hit only 35% of them. This is supposed to be a strong suit
-Free throw attempts actually went down from 2.2 his rookie year to just 2 attempts a game last year (he did have a higher % last year though)
-Rebounds per game decreased from 4.9 to 4.8 (even with Cousins gone, still couldn't rebound)
-Blocks and assists did go up

To sum it up: He played more minutes, started more games and had a bigger role. He responded by shooting 9% percent worse, rebounded less, short a worse percentage with threes, and had less free throw attempts. His assists do go up and along with his block rate so I give him credit there. Overall though, very disappointing.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/labissk01.html
Big men take a bit longer to develop. We dont want another Hassan Whiteside situation because we were just too hasty now do we?
 
What have you guys thought about Bagley's defense up until this point?

I think his defensive awareness problems on the perimeter have been fully evident but he's impressed me with his interior defense. Small sample size but he's basically doubled his shot blocking percentage from college so far in summer league. He did a good job fronting Ayton and defended a handful of pick and rolls a lot better than I expected him to.

I'm curious to see how Bagley fares defending at the 5 in the NBA. He may not be a total lost cause with his short wingspan like we thought. If he can play the 5, it'll open up things a lot more roster wise.
I think his awareness and recovery on the block have been great. He does need to work on his closeouts and wing defense but I'm not going to fault him for that as he was a big man and now he is learning how to defend away from the hoop. Not worried about it in the slightest as he seems to be a hard worker and very coachable.


Just gotta get that shot right and it will open up the whole world for his offense.
 
Big men take a bit longer to develop. We dont want another Hassan Whiteside situation because we were just too hasty now do we?
Hassan Whiteside is an exception and not the norm. He was his own biggest enemy because he was lazy and didn't want to work. He promptly got kicked out of the league and had to work his way back in. Skal just plays like a boy among men. Weak and fragile. He does have some talent which is why I said I wouldn't just get rid of him but if a good trade came along and Skal was needed, I wouldn't hesitate.
 
Hassan Whiteside is an exception and not the norm. He was his own biggest enemy because he was lazy and didn't want to work. He promptly got kicked out of the league and had to work his way back in. Skal just plays like a boy among men. Weak and fragile. He does have some talent which is why I said I wouldn't just get rid of him but if a good trade came along and Skal was needed, I wouldn't hesitate.
I would let Skal have this training camp working against the motors of Giles and Bagley before even making your assumption.
 
Is anyone else bummed that other rookies have look very good, but Bagley has looked meh at best?

1. Ayton has looked very good.
7. Carter Jr has looked great
8. Sexton has looked good
9. Knox has looked amazing
10. Mikal has looked good
11. Gilgeous-Alexander has looked amazing
15. Troy Brown Jr has looked good

These are just the early picks. I know SL doesn't make or break a player, but it would sure be nice for the Kings to finally have a rookie who looks great in SL. Just didn't see that in Bagley. Very disappointed in his SL. He needs a lot of work before stepping on the NBA floor.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
Is anyone else bummed that other rookies have look very good, but Bagley has looked meh at best?

1. Ayton has looked very good.
7. Carter Jr has looked great
8. Sexton has looked good
9. Knox has looked amazing
10. Mikal has looked good
11. Gilgeous-Alexander has looked amazing
15. Troy Brown Jr has looked good

These are just the early picks. I know SL doesn't make or break a player, but it would sure be nice for the Kings to finally have a rookie who looks great in SL. Just didn't see that in Bagley. Very disappointed in his SL. He needs a lot of work before stepping on the NBA floor.
Yeah he looked really bad sitting there on the bench. He hasn't played summer league. He played a couple of games RIGHT AFTER HE SIGNED HIS FREAKING CONTRACT in the California Classic. Your over-reaction is alarming IMHO.
 
Is anyone else bummed that other rookies have look very good, but Bagley has looked meh at best?

1. Ayton has looked very good.
7. Carter Jr has looked great
8. Sexton has looked good
9. Knox has looked amazing
10. Mikal has looked good
11. Gilgeous-Alexander has looked amazing
15. Troy Brown Jr has looked good

These are just the early picks. I know SL doesn't make or break a player, but it would sure be nice for the Kings to finally have a rookie who looks great in SL. Just didn't see that in Bagley. Very disappointed in his SL. He needs a lot of work before stepping on the NBA floor.
The last player that the Kings had that looked like an absolute stud coming out of summer league was Tyreke Evans.

Even Cousins struggled with FG%.
 
Yeah he looked really bad sitting there on the bench. He hasn't played summer league. He played a couple of games RIGHT AFTER HE SIGNED HIS FREAKING CONTRACT in the California Classic. Your over-reaction is alarming IMHO.
What are you talking about? He has played in SL. he has played 4 games.

28.1mins: 10.2pts 5.7rebs 0.5asts 1.75blks on 33.3% FG 10% 3pt 66.7% FT

Bagley has not looked good in SL. I'm just saying, it sucks to see your #2 pick struggle while all the other rookies have been excelling.
 
Point Blank:

Bagley will only become a relatively big impact player if he develops a high volume reliable three point shot, or he becoems a dominant defensive player. He demonstrated neither at Duke.

A big man that isn't a good three point shooter, free throw shooter and isn't a dominant defender is just an incredibly risky pick in 2018.
 
What have you guys thought about Bagley's defense up until this point?

I think his defensive awareness problems on the perimeter have been fully evident but he's impressed me with his interior defense. Small sample size but he's basically doubled his shot blocking percentage from college so far in summer league. He did a good job fronting Ayton and defended a handful of pick and rolls a lot better than I expected him to.

I'm curious to see how Bagley fares defending at the 5 in the NBA. He may not be a total lost cause with his short wingspan like we thought. If he can play the 5, it'll open up things a lot more roster wise.
I think most importantly was we saw a guy with insane physical tools and the actual "want" to play good defense. A lot of the good plays he made this summer on defense were purely him working hard and effort to block and contest shots. I think his awareness was better than advertised too; he wasn't a complete and total dunce out there.

I value effort so much for a young player on defense. All rookies suck on D, it's the ones that put the put the work in that eventually become great. I think that's what has me excited on Bagley more than anything; I see a kid with such a exciting physical profile and tool kit AND someone I trust has a strong work ethic to make his weaknesses better.
 
Is anyone else bummed that other rookies have look very good, but Bagley has looked meh at best?

1. Ayton has looked very good.
7. Carter Jr has looked great
8. Sexton has looked good
9. Knox has looked amazing
10. Mikal has looked good
11. Gilgeous-Alexander has looked amazing
15. Troy Brown Jr has looked good

These are just the early picks. I know SL doesn't make or break a player, but it would sure be nice for the Kings to finally have a rookie who looks great in SL. Just didn't see that in Bagley. Very disappointed in his SL. He needs a lot of work before stepping on the NBA floor.
Not that they were in considerstion for the two pick, but It doesnt surprise me that the two Kentucky players are looking good in SL. I could never figure why Knox was getting so little love around here.

It is a bummer that Marvin couldn't show more but I'm optimistic.
 
Is anyone else bummed that other rookies have look very good, but Bagley has looked meh at best?

1. Ayton has looked very good.
7. Carter Jr has looked great
8. Sexton has looked good
9. Knox has looked amazing
10. Mikal has looked good
11. Gilgeous-Alexander has looked amazing
15. Troy Brown Jr has looked good

These are just the early picks. I know SL doesn't make or break a player, but it would sure be nice for the Kings to finally have a rookie who looks great in SL. Just didn't see that in Bagley. Very disappointed in his SL. He needs a lot of work before stepping on the NBA floor.
Hey, Atlanta's on the phone offering to trade our bust for Trae Young...they seem kinda panicked.
 
Point Blank:

Bagley will only become a relatively big impact player if he develops a high volume reliable three point shot, or he becoems a dominant defensive player. He demonstrated neither at Duke.

A big man that isn't a good three point shooter, free throw shooter and isn't a dominant defender is just an incredibly risky pick in 2018.
Totally agree. I think he has the most bust potential out of all the lotto bigs (and I felt this way pre draft, this isn't a SL hot take).

But...

Bagley isn't shy about launching 3's, and his shot mechanics look ok, so there's hope he gets better in a few seasons.

And while he looks like he has a loooooong ways to go on defense, athletically he should be able to switch onto the perimeter. His shot blocking in SL seemed better than expected as well.

Dude has energy and apparently is super coachable, so I can see why Vlade gambled on him. I'm just gonna have to keep reminding myself that he's a project, because this is looking like a strong draft and there will likely be quite a few guys playing better than Bagley next year.

I'm wary of the pick, but I'm rooting for him and willing to be patient. Like Fox, Bagley is a couple years away from being able to call.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
I think most importantly was we saw a guy with insane physical tools and the actual "want" to play good defense. A lot of the good plays he made this summer on defense were purely him working hard and effort to block and contest shots. I think his awareness was better than advertised too; he wasn't a complete and total dunce out there.

I value effort so much for a young player on defense. All rookies suck on D, it's the ones that put the put the work in that eventually become great. I think that's what has me excited on Bagley more than anything; I see a kid with such a exciting physical profile and tool kit AND someone I trust has a strong work ethic to make his weaknesses better.
And this is why I feel much better about his prospects as a good NBA player than I did about other players of a similar build taken in the high lottery (Derek Williams, Michael Beasley, Thomas Robinson).
 
Hey, Atlanta's on the phone offering to trade our bust for Trae Young...they seem kinda panicked.
Young started out the SL horribly(they played in the Utah SL), however, he's been playing much better now. Today put up 23pts 8asts, yesterday 24pts 5asts, and the other day 21pts 11asts.
Maybe Bagley could've saw the same improved production had he not gotten injured.

The struggling lotto picks have been Bagley, Jackson Jr, and Bamba(dependent on expectation). There are other bigs who have been doing good: Carter Jr, Ayton, Wagner, and Robinson. It's just a case by case basis, but we're seeing picks 2-4-5-6 having a hard time compared to the others in SL.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
What are you talking about? He has played in SL. he has played 4 games.

28.1mins: 10.2pts 5.7rebs 0.5asts 1.75blks on 33.3% FG 10% 3pt 66.7% FT

Bagley has not looked good in SL. I'm just saying, it sucks to see your #2 pick struggle while all the other rookies have been excelling.
The California Classic has been referred to as the pre-summer summer league, which is part of what I was thinking. You are right, however, in that he did play a total of 4 games, of which only 1 was in Vegas and I was wrong in saying that he had only played 2 games. No excuse just a brain fart. I truly believe, however, that he would have been playing better had he not injured his hip in Game 1 in Vegas and I am convinced you're comparing him unfairly at this point since all those you are talking about are still practicing, playing and learning.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
Young started out the SL horribly(they played in the Utah SL), however, he's been playing much better now. Today put up 23pts 8asts, yesterday 24pts 5asts, and the other day 21pts 11asts.
Maybe Bagley could've saw the same improved production had he not gotten injured.

The struggling lotto picks have been Bagley, Jackson Jr, and Bamba(dependent on expectation). There are other bigs who have been doing good: Carter Jr, Ayton, Wagner, and Robinson. It's just a case by case basis, but we're seeing picks 2-4-5-6 having a hard time compared to the others in SL.
That's exactly what I am thinking.
 
Is anyone else bummed that other rookies have look very good, but Bagley has looked meh at best?

1. Ayton has looked very good.
7. Carter Jr has looked great
8. Sexton has looked good
9. Knox has looked amazing
10. Mikal has looked good
11. Gilgeous-Alexander has looked amazing
15. Troy Brown Jr has looked good

These are just the early picks. I know SL doesn't make or break a player, but it would sure be nice for the Kings to finally have a rookie who looks great in SL. Just didn't see that in Bagley. Very disappointed in his SL. He needs a lot of work before stepping on the NBA floor.

On that note...

1. Jaren Jackson Jr is shooting 26% from the field.

2. Josh Jackson is shooting 24% from the field.

3. Zach Collins 29% FG

4. Jonathan Issac 35% FG

5. Dennis Smith Jr. 38% FG

6. Trae Young 39% FG

7. Kevin Knox 39% FG

8. Malik Beasley 39% FG

9. OG Anunoby 40% FG

Bottom line, some really good players are also putting up less than stellar stats. There is also an unreal expectation regarding Bagley. Knox shot 39% FG and is amazing, but Bagley also shot 39% in Vegas and he is meh.

.
 
On that note...

1. Jaren Jackson Jr is shooting 26% from the field.

2. Josh Jackson is shooting 24% from the field.

3. Zach Collins 29% FG

4. Jonathan Issac 35% FG

5. Dennis Smith Jr. 38% FG

6. Trae Young 39% FG

7. Kevin Knox 39% FG

8. Malik Beasley 39% FG

9. OG Anunoby 40% FG

Bottom line, some really good players are also putting up less than stellar stats. There is also an unreal expectation regarding Bagley. Knox shot 39% FG and is amazing, but Bagley also shot 39% in Vegas and he is meh.

.
I agree with your overall point but Knox and Bagley shooting 39% a piece doesn't tell the whole story. For one, Bagley should have a higher FG% regardless since he's a PF/C and Knox is a wing. Knox has also gotten to the line a lot more. He's rebounded better and he's scored more. His PER is 21.28 while Bagley's is 10.47.

I wouldn't say that Kevin Knox has been amazing but he's been a much much better player than Bagley in SL despite them having equal FG% stats.

I'm not going to say that Bagley sucks or will have a bad career or anything like that. He had a bad SL stint and that really can't be argued. Poor PG play by Mason held him back but he also didn't do much to help himself either. It'll be interesting to find out what happens when the season starts and he's hopefully playing with better ball handlers that can get him some easier buckets.
 
I agree with your overall point but Knox and Bagley shooting 39% a piece doesn't tell the whole story. For one, Bagley should have a higher FG% regardless since he's a PF/C and Knox is a wing. Knox has also gotten to the line a lot more. He's rebounded better and he's scored more. His PER is 21.28 while Bagley's is 10.47.

I wouldn't say that Kevin Knox has been amazing but he's been a much much better player than Bagley in SL despite them having equal FG% stats.

I'm not going to say that Bagley sucks or will have a bad career or anything like that. He had a bad SL stint and that really can't be argued. Poor PG play by Mason held him back but he also didn't do much to help himself either. It'll be interesting to find out what happens when the season starts and he's hopefully playing with better ball handlers that can get him some easier buckets.
When you start talking team sports, numbers don't tell the whole picture, as you stated. Teammates play is crucial. Good guard play is essential for non ball handlers. And when we acknowledge that guard play was poor, we can't then go back and say, but the big man should just change his game and start playing with the skillset of a wing and make up for it. And if Bagley decides he's going to go ahead and just play hard on the defensive end and contribute that way, well his PER isn't going to go up as much as it would if he was scoring. So you are right. Stats don't tell the whole picture. Bagley will be fine.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
What have you guys thought about Bagley's defense up until this point?

I think his defensive awareness problems on the perimeter have been fully evident but he's impressed me with his interior defense. Small sample size but he's basically doubled his shot blocking percentage from college so far in summer league. He did a good job fronting Ayton and defended a handful of pick and rolls a lot better than I expected him to.

I'm curious to see how Bagley fares defending at the 5 in the NBA. He may not be a total lost cause with his short wingspan like we thought. If he can play the 5, it'll open up things a lot more roster wise.
I'm favorably impressed with his defense. In particular, I think he has the ability to be an outstanding defender of perimeter play. In the Suns game Josh Jackson, a very athletic SF, drove on him to the basket and Bagley staid right with him. He got a foul, which I did not think was warranted, but nonetheless he staid right with him. Eventually, I think he's going to guard 3s, 4s, and most 5s. Like most rookies, he's going to have recognition issues, but that's to be expected.
 
When you start talking team sports, numbers don't tell the whole picture, as you stated. Teammates play is crucial. Good guard play is essential for non ball handlers. And when we acknowledge that guard play was poor, we can't then go back and say, but the big man should just change his game and start playing with the skillset of a wing and make up for it. And if Bagley decides he's going to go ahead and just play hard on the defensive end and contribute that way, well his PER isn't going to go up as much as it would if he was scoring. So you are right. Stats don't tell the whole picture. Bagley will be fine.
I don't remember anyone saying that Bagley should change his game and start playing with the skill set of a wing. I just think that if you pick a guy at #2 in the draft and he can't score unless he's hand fed by the guard and he's not projected to be a good defender, then what's the point in picking him at #2? I think we all expected Bagley to be able to score a bit better on his own than he did.

Being stymied by Derrick Jones Jr was a bit of an eye opener. Jordan Bell, I could give him a pass on that one because he's a great defender. Small sample size and bad guard play makes me give him the benefit of the doubt but he doesn't get a full pass because he's the wrong pick if his offense going forward is mostly spoon fed from the guards. You can draft a guy at #25 for that kind of production. I expected better post skills from our offensively skilled 2nd pick in the draft big man.
 
I don't remember anyone saying that Bagley should change his game and start playing with the skill set of a wing. I just think that if you pick a guy at #2 in the draft and he can't score unless he's hand fed by the guard and he's not projected to be a good defender, then what's the point in picking him at #2? I think we all expected Bagley to be able to score a bit better on his own than he did.

Being stymied by Derrick Jones Jr was a bit of an eye opener. Jordan Bell, I could give him a pass on that one because he's a great defender. Small sample size and bad guard play makes me give him the benefit of the doubt but he doesn't get a full pass because he's the wrong pick if his offense going forward is mostly spoon fed from the guards. You can draft a guy at #25 for that kind of production. I expected better post skills from our offensively skilled 2nd pick in the draft big man.
If you don't expect him to have the skills of a wing, but don't want him to rely on a wing or guard to get him the ball in the post, then I don't know where to go from there. Ayton does fine in SL hanging around the basket until he gets fed the ball deep in the post or a rebound falls to him. But under these requirements, he should have been picked around #24 I guess. Or is Ayton different because.........?
 
If you don't expect him to have the skills of a wing, but don't want him to rely on a wing or guard to get him the ball in the post, then I don't know where to go from there. Ayton does fine in SL hanging around the basket until he gets fed the ball deep in the post or a rebound falls to him. But under these requirements, he should have been picked around #24 I guess. Or is Ayton different because.........?
I think you're forgetting post skills. You don't have to play like a wing to score 1 on 1 as a big man. Bagley failed nearly every time he tried to post his defender up. The whole point of playing him at the PF position is to create mismatches. Hopefully he can defend smaller 4s and then beat them down low on the offensive end. If he can't score against 3s like Derrick Jones Jr, then the whole plan is a waste of time.

I'm not saying that his skills are set in stone. I'm just saying that in the future he better be able to dominate a guy who is Jones Jr's size or else he is going to be a waste of a pick.