ockingsfan
Starter
I guess this hack didn't see Vivek's sons instagram that Doncic had a private dinner with Vlade and Co.
This guy needs to check his damn facts before he puts out this crap!
Marvin Bagley III
- Thread starter jcassio
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I guess this hack didn't see Vivek's sons instagram that Doncic had a private dinner with Vlade and Co.
This guy needs to check his damn facts before he puts out this crap!
Yep the dude seriously put a negative spin on a normal scouting approach. He has it out for the Kings and like SacTownKid said, seems to be trying to steer Doncic to a certain team.
gunks
Hall of Famer
This apparent mutual disinterest between our FO and Doncic reeks of click bait.
Kings are an easy mark, why not drum up views by saying the #2 prospect isn't interested in the team with the #2 pick? Phoenix and Ayton have taken all the mystery out of the first pick after all.
Vlade (and Vivek) aren't going overseas to check out Luka, much less take him to dinner, if there isn't interest.
Not that I'm counting Bagley out, on paper he's a better fit with Fox, but Doncic has to still be in the mix.
Kings are an easy mark, why not drum up views by saying the #2 prospect isn't interested in the team with the #2 pick? Phoenix and Ayton have taken all the mystery out of the first pick after all.
Vlade (and Vivek) aren't going overseas to check out Luka, much less take him to dinner, if there isn't interest.
Not that I'm counting Bagley out, on paper he's a better fit with Fox, but Doncic has to still be in the mix.
Thank you. As much as I disagree with Grant on a regular basis, I think he hit the nail on the head with the "lazy journalism".
ockingsfan
Starter
I wouldn't even call this stuff these hacks write on the internet to be "journalism".
More like "click/crap bait".
This Sacramento bashing is getting old!
John Galt
Starter
WCS?
John Galt
Starter
that is so incongruent with the photo of Vivek, Vlade, and Luka though.... I think I don't trust Givony.
BeerNerd916
Bench
So does MP3. Your point?
BeerNerd916
Bench
If the Kings didnt just put together a team of Buddy, Bogie, Fox, Giles and other high picks then I would understand everyone who keeps trying to anoint this pick as the end all be all. However it isnt that. The Kings need a homerun, a player who is a 7x all star who can give you 20+ points and double digit rebounds to go along with the most recent stack of talent. I repeat, THIS PICK ISNT AN END ALL BE ALL PICK. It's not a grand slam. You dont need a grand slam and honestly there's not one in this draft. It's the final piece to the puzzle. That's why it is Bagley. So quit your bitching and try to understand the chess match being played. Whiny.
beb0p
Starter
First, WCS's defense isn't horrible. Second, he could have been great but never put his mind into it; which is my point.
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beb0p
Starter
The Nine Players in the 2018 NBA Draft Who Will Not Fail
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/6/19/17479658/nba-draft-vernon-will-not-fail
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/6/19/17479658/nba-draft-vernon-will-not-fail
UK_King
Starter
I don't want the number 2 pick to be an amazing runner. While that's nice were looking for a franchise changing prospect.
They need to have multiple skills or the instincts to develop multiple skills. Bagley doesn't seem to have that
Wcs is a great runner. Skal is a good floor runner.
They need to have multiple skills or the instincts to develop multiple skills. Bagley doesn't seem to have that
Wcs is a great runner. Skal is a good floor runner.
Try to understand how the game is played today and what is valuable in todays Nba and stop bitching that everyone doesnt blindly like the player you like. There are numerous quality arguments in this thread on why Bagley shouldnt be the pick, much better arguments than your vacuous whinying. Go tackle one of those arguments instead of disregarding them as bitching
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sterö
Bench
Give WCS Bagley's motor and we wouldn't be picking #2 this year.
Ozymandias
All-Star
The thing I like the most about this pick is last years Kings were a team who ripped off many big runs and had many big runs ripped off against them, often times in quick succession, most nba teams can be described this way but what the Kings did last season was far and beyond normal IMO...
So the thing is that thru these runs, Bagley will be a constant force... Or at least I think he will be.. I think thats what the idea is..
In part because he's excellent running the floor, and just watch him put his hand up on the break and call for the ball, you will see that he either finishes the bucket or gets fouled at an extremely high rate, he's got great spatial awareness, he's both excellent at establishing position and putting in the work to establish it early, which is something pro's do that these draftee's usually learn over the course of their early nba careers --- Marvin already has this in his back-pocket, to say he's excellent at this is almost understating it, he's a savant, he's the best i've ever seen at this for a teenager........
I also believe, or should say Im sure that his FT shooting, 3pt/midrange, and ball skills will all improve over time, if you watch Blake Griffin the last few seasons his handle is really quite excellent, I think Marvin is capable of that type of stuff eventually, he's so unstoppable around the rim that he hasn't really had the opportunity to showcase some of his perimeter skills..
and he's not gonna be some huge defensive force, that doesn't mean he's gonna be some push over though, he's obviously got a major chip on his shoulder about his defense. I like that he's a lefty and quick as a cat. Defense is a team thing, it's a chain as strong as its weak links, the thought that Marvin is gonna stick out like some sore thumb as lets say Luka might seems silly to me. Coach K did an atrocious job with that Duke team defensively, and Marvin was often left way out of his comfort zone..
More I think about it the more I'm convinced Marvin is gonna lead this team in scoring as a rookie and put up like 18 / 10 and a blk per game. I think players like Fox and Bogdan and Willie are all gonna like playing with Marvin too, because he's reliable and good at what he does.
So the thing is that thru these runs, Bagley will be a constant force... Or at least I think he will be.. I think thats what the idea is..
In part because he's excellent running the floor, and just watch him put his hand up on the break and call for the ball, you will see that he either finishes the bucket or gets fouled at an extremely high rate, he's got great spatial awareness, he's both excellent at establishing position and putting in the work to establish it early, which is something pro's do that these draftee's usually learn over the course of their early nba careers --- Marvin already has this in his back-pocket, to say he's excellent at this is almost understating it, he's a savant, he's the best i've ever seen at this for a teenager........
I also believe, or should say Im sure that his FT shooting, 3pt/midrange, and ball skills will all improve over time, if you watch Blake Griffin the last few seasons his handle is really quite excellent, I think Marvin is capable of that type of stuff eventually, he's so unstoppable around the rim that he hasn't really had the opportunity to showcase some of his perimeter skills..
and he's not gonna be some huge defensive force, that doesn't mean he's gonna be some push over though, he's obviously got a major chip on his shoulder about his defense. I like that he's a lefty and quick as a cat. Defense is a team thing, it's a chain as strong as its weak links, the thought that Marvin is gonna stick out like some sore thumb as lets say Luka might seems silly to me. Coach K did an atrocious job with that Duke team defensively, and Marvin was often left way out of his comfort zone..
More I think about it the more I'm convinced Marvin is gonna lead this team in scoring as a rookie and put up like 18 / 10 and a blk per game. I think players like Fox and Bogdan and Willie are all gonna like playing with Marvin too, because he's reliable and good at what he does.
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UK_King
Starter
We're picking number 2. We need a player who will change the franchise for the next 5-8 years for the better.
He just screams 12 and 9 off the bench. Nice if you're the Celtics.
I'm not picking a motor guy.
Ozymandias
All-Star
The beautiful thing that I can't wait to see is;
Fox and Bagley...
cuz whats gonna happen is Marvin is such a savant with his positioning, and he lifts and catches and finishes so easily, that once Fox blazes past his man, Marvin is gonna be creeping into position like clockwork. I expect them to really develop great chemistry we should see a few lobs a game.
Fox and Bagley...
cuz whats gonna happen is Marvin is such a savant with his positioning, and he lifts and catches and finishes so easily, that once Fox blazes past his man, Marvin is gonna be creeping into position like clockwork. I expect them to really develop great chemistry we should see a few lobs a game.
Ozymandias
All-Star
A motor guy? How many Motor guys do you know who score 20+ PPG?
UK_King
Starter
Thomas Robinson? He averaged 18ppg. Faried the same.
I'm more interested in the kind of skills that will translate to the NBA not how many PTS he scored in college.
Catching a few lobs doesn't turn around a franchise.
Ozymandias
All-Star
Seems like you wouldn't know how to spot those skills, if you think Bagley doesn't have em. Maybe try again?
Did you see what I just wrote a few posts ago? care to refute that and tell us why he's more like Thomas Robinson or Faried than what I described?
Which imbecile started throwing those comps around anyway? obviously someone local here, who knows very little of Marvin, nd hasn't followed his extremely public recruiting / story. You wont find anyone who's opinion is respected making those claims, thats for damn sure. Show me 1.
UK_King
Starter
No I think it's just called a difference of opinion.
Even if Bagley ends up averageing +18ppg, there is still a relatively low ceiling (at least for a #2 pick) on how valuable he is with his skillset and style of play
Ozymandias
All-Star
Thats an absurd claim to make. Whats the basis? Humor me. His shot is completely broken beyond reconstruction? he's got no chance at improving his handle? Are his feet not quick and will he not strengthen up significantly in the coming years?
Read the last two pages in this thread.
Edit: sorry, probably should read the last five
Ozymandias
All-Star
Expound tho. How did you reach this opinion? I'm mystified, enlighten me.
Ozymandias
All-Star
I disagree with these baseless claims and can debunk them with ease. I saw Marvin Bagley first play a basketball game several years before most people here casting stones at him knew he existed, for sure... I first saw him at WE CAN ALL GO like 5 years back, Darius Garland was on his team and 5'7" at the time, he's now 6'3"...
I'm quite sure my post on this page #825 explains most of it, but we both know, no ones gonna step up and attempt to debunk that post, those who disagree will just sit in denial and sweep it under the rug.
Let me ask you this; why are you so convinced the sample size you've seen is conclusive?
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ParniValjak
All-Star
Please!
Bagley is a pretty skilled athlete. Double-double guys don’t grow on trees and despite popular belief, they are not easy to find.
Of all the players in the draft, Bagley probably has the highest upside. All he has ever done is consistently dominante every level he has played at. I am more than willing to back in our development program with a talent like that. If WSC can improve his passing, so can Bagley and defensively he will improve no doubt.
Okay I can comment on that post.
First of all its hard to say anything about Kings being a team that had a lot of "runs" in their games since you didnt provide any statistical data to support that. But assuming thats true, it seems like a pretty normal thing for a young team whose point guards were both rookies.
Second of all "Bagley will be a constant force" is just an abstract statement that doesnt really mean anything. Unless if the rest of your post explains why you made that statement and I'm gonna assume thats the case.
Yes seems pretty legit. Those are his stregths.
Ft% in college usually predicts how well players shooting will translate to Nba. Bagleys was 62% so I dont see many reasons expecting him to become a good shooter. If he does it would be an outlier and I wouldnt expect anything that requires a statistical outlier.
First of all I'd like to know what is his comfort zone defensively. He was guarding the corner in a 2-3 zone and he couldnt do that because he didnt show any defensive insticts.
This defense thing with Bagley has been said constantly: He is a big man so to him being a good defender is very important in order to him becoming a really valuable player. There is data that supports this, eye test and understanding the game today supports that. Bad defending big men just arent that valuable. Its unneccesary to argue against it so then the argument would be wether Bagley will become a good defender. I think its very easy to predict that he will not.
If god forbit we drafted him, he most likely would lead us in scoring. But thats not what non Bagley beleivers are arguing.
So basically that post explained nothing that has been argued about Bagley. The whole point of the argument has been that a) In general, guards and wings generate the best and most efficent offense and b) non defending big men arent really valuable even if they posted some good box score stats.
Fantasizing about single offensive possessions with Fox and Bagley isnt debunking statistical data. If you want to explaing how 31years worth of data is lying, I'd suggest you read those post again and try again
31 years worth of data proving the lower value of non defending big men. That convinces me
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Ozymandias
All-Star
BTW I appreciate the thorough response.
Statistical data? I watch the games I watch the players, I watch recruiting, I watch the offseasons. I don't use stats as the pillar of my arguments because numbers can be easily manipulated, they aren't uniform the way people make them out to be, because they are compiled in varying circumstances...... why do you think the Kings pay scouts and have the damn owner flying to see games and crap? They know eye test reveals what #'s cannot...
Let me give you a pertinent on-topic example;
If you subtract Wendell Carter from the Duke equation completely and Marvin was playing in a more comfortable natural defensive position, his defensive stats wouldn't be so bad. Or If Duke just played zone defense more than they did, from the get-go, his stats would've been better, there's all these variables involved, or if he had perimeter defenders around him who weren't turnstiles....... and so on and so forth..
Basketball is a TEAM GAME and the only stat that actually matters is wins.... stats are weighed on how a player performed in a certain fit, basketball is much more complex than that, good nba players can fit most systems and play in all sorts of circumstances. Lou Williams just became the oldest player in NBA history to score 20ppg in a season for the first time at 31 years old, these fatal PRE-DRAFT musings on players upside and limits are absurd to me.
It's definitely fair to say that Marvin's poor defensive stats were compiled in a far less than ideal situation at Duke... Just listen to Coach K talk about their defense, he's not shy about calling it really bad or a disaster, i think the words he used were Marvin was lost, which is an apt way to describe it.
Marvin's FT% in college will prove to be an outlier, theirs probably some mechanical flaws they'll smooth out and then his shot will incrementally improve from there. Not saying he's gonna be Yao Ming from the FT line but he should be more in the mid to upper 70's eventually. He'll keep working at it.
the 31 years of data retort is a mischaracterization the nature of my question. I'm not talking about the sample size of the stats you're pulling, im talking about the 33 game sample size Marvin played in college --- are you sure thats conclusive?
Statistical data? I watch the games I watch the players, I watch recruiting, I watch the offseasons. I don't use stats as the pillar of my arguments because numbers can be easily manipulated, they aren't uniform the way people make them out to be, because they are compiled in varying circumstances...... why do you think the Kings pay scouts and have the damn owner flying to see games and crap? They know eye test reveals what #'s cannot...
Let me give you a pertinent on-topic example;
If you subtract Wendell Carter from the Duke equation completely and Marvin was playing in a more comfortable natural defensive position, his defensive stats wouldn't be so bad. Or If Duke just played zone defense more than they did, from the get-go, his stats would've been better, there's all these variables involved, or if he had perimeter defenders around him who weren't turnstiles....... and so on and so forth..
Basketball is a TEAM GAME and the only stat that actually matters is wins.... stats are weighed on how a player performed in a certain fit, basketball is much more complex than that, good nba players can fit most systems and play in all sorts of circumstances. Lou Williams just became the oldest player in NBA history to score 20ppg in a season for the first time at 31 years old, these fatal PRE-DRAFT musings on players upside and limits are absurd to me.
It's definitely fair to say that Marvin's poor defensive stats were compiled in a far less than ideal situation at Duke... Just listen to Coach K talk about their defense, he's not shy about calling it really bad or a disaster, i think the words he used were Marvin was lost, which is an apt way to describe it.
Marvin's FT% in college will prove to be an outlier, theirs probably some mechanical flaws they'll smooth out and then his shot will incrementally improve from there. Not saying he's gonna be Yao Ming from the FT line but he should be more in the mid to upper 70's eventually. He'll keep working at it.
the 31 years of data retort is a mischaracterization the nature of my question. I'm not talking about the sample size of the stats you're pulling, im talking about the 33 game sample size Marvin played in college --- are you sure thats conclusive?
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