Marvin Bagley III

[funkykingston]

Bogie is a pick and roll technician so enter his name. He made WCS look like a decent player on multiple occasions.

Absolutely. But it's a hole in Fox's game.

And the other issue with the pick & roll with the Kings is that they needs bigs that can set a solid pick. The best guy on the team at setting picks last year was Papagiannis, as said as that is.

I think Bagley can learn but he also was put into few P&R situations at Duke so there's not much tape on it. What I did see was typical of young bigs. He doesn't really plant his feet and come to a full stop. He's already trying to roll before absorbing the contact. It's poor technique, but that's true of a lot of Bagley's game - help defense, pick & roll defense, boxing out, turning over his left shoulder in the post, free throw shooting, etc.

On the one hand you have to think that if he was already so good with poor fundamentals in several areas that with proper coaching and development he can be a monster.

On the other hand, there are a ton of guys that came into the NBA as elite athletes that teams thought they could mold into something special who turned into disappointments.

I don't see Marvin Bagley as a bust. At the very minimum he's a good NBA rebounder and hustle player on offense. And while his lack of length limits him as a rim protector and defensive anchor, he's certainly got the potential to be an all-star player if he puts it all together.

 

[funkykingston]

Hard to run pick n roll with Bagley if he plays the 4 with a non shooting center clogging the lane. He would have to be a center in this scenario. And if he is a center, you can look at the data posted here on how valuable centers with Bagley level defense are

Given that he's going to have to be a PF/smallball 4/pseudo wing player, I think Bagley's ultimate upside will be in large part determined by growth in his perimeter defense and outside shooting.

 

[206Fan]

I'm really getting tired of the Doncic fanatics. I have him at #2, but these fans are crazy, almost cult-like. They love to trash Bagley. They devalue him in order to lift up Doncic.

STR's recent article is titled "Drafting Marvin Bagley over Luka Doncic would be a mistake". Read what they put in the body paragraph:

But Bagley might not be the best bet given the NBA’s current direction. In today’s NBA, the most valuable big men are rim-runners, lob-catchers and rim protectors who can also play on the perimeter. The NBA is more guard oriented than ever, and the days of throwing it down low to your big man for a post-up opportunity are disappearing. Passing is also becoming more important than ever, as is outside shooting. While Bagley did shoot a respectable 39.7% on 58 attempts from three last season, that was on a shorter college line and his FT% of 62.7% seems to indicate that he’s still got a lot of room to improve on his shot.

So he just said Bagley would not be a fit in today's NBA. Today's NBA big men need to be: rim runners, lob-catchers, rim protectors, and perimeter players. FFS, Bagley meets 3 out of 4!

Am I the only one who thinks Bagley is a modern 4?? He doesn't provide rim protection, but with his agility, he should be able to switch 1-5 with more learning right?

 

[Telemachus]

Thomas Robinson? He averaged 18ppg. Faried the same.

I'm more interested in the kind of skills that will translate to the NBA not how many PTS he scored in college.

Catching a few lobs doesn't turn around a franchise.

This statement tells me that you never watched him play.

 

[funkykingston]

I disagree. If the big defender doesn't hedge Fox will use the pick and turn the corner. If the big defender hedges Fox is often still too quick not to get where he wants. Fox will be an all-star because he can get wherever he wants to go on the floor. I don't worry about his shot because he has the speed and juke moves to get open looks. The mechanics are fine. Remember the Suns game, 6-6 from deep? He's not hopeless out there. Fox also has instincts and patience in the pick and roll on how to make accurate reads. He learned from Boggy. Fox will carve up defenses with the pick and roll with an even average jumper, which I expect he will have next season. It will also help to have guys who set decent picks. Willie is terrible setting picks. Skal is not much better. Giles and Bagley can be significant upgrades in this area.

But that's not what happened last season. Guys just sagged off, which is exactly how you play the pick and roll if you're not afraid of the ballhandler's outside shot. Fox both needs to get stronger so that he can be more of a threat to attack the basket even without a clear lane, and be a reliable outside threat. As long as he shoots well enough to punish teams for going under every pick then it can be an effective weapon.

Statistically Fox was in the 27th percentile of qualified players in terms of P&R efficiency. He ran P&R action more than any other King but just among Kings players he had the lowest PPP, lowest FG% out of it and the highest TO%. He DID have the second highest foul rate behind Frank Mason (Fox was slightly above the league average) which is a testament to his quickness in getting to the hoop but clearly he's got a very long way to go. Being consistent from outside off of picks is going to be the key though. And I think that's also tied in to him getting stronger, especially his legs so that they are more involved in his shot. Hopefully Giles isn't the only guy doing trap bar deadlifts this summer.

 

[hrdboild]

I'm really getting tired of the Doncic fanatics. I have him at #2, but these fans are crazy, almost cult-like. They love to trash Bagley. They devalue him i order to lift up Doncic.

STR's recent article is titled "Drafting Marvin Bagley over Luka Doncic would be a mistake". Read what they put in the body paragraph:


So he just said Bagley would not be a fit in today's NBA. Today's NBA big men need to be: rim runners, lob-catchers, rim protectors, and perimeter players. FFS, Bagley meets 3 out of 4!

Am I the only one who thinks Bagley is a modern 4?? He doesn't provide rim protection, but with his agility, he should be able to switch 1-5 with more learning right?

He's certainly athletic enough to do it. I think opinions on Bagley vary mostly based on how much you think he can learn. Maybe I'm so down on him because I really liked Marquise Chriss who had similar upside and hasn't progressed at all in two years. Bagley to me plays like a guy who's body is disconnected from his brain. Ben McLemore didn't fail on the Kings because of a lack of ability or athleticism or poor work ethic. He failed because he wasn't able to process the game fast enough. We don't have a very good track record with players who have tools but lack know-how.

 

[funkykingston]

I'm really getting tired of the Doncic fanatics. I have him at #2, but these fans are crazy, almost cult-like. They love to trash Bagley. They devalue him in order to lift up Doncic.

STR's recent article is titled "Drafting Marvin Bagley over Luka Doncic would be a mistake". Read what they put in the body paragraph:


So he just said Bagley would not be a fit in today's NBA. Today's NBA big men need to be: rim runners, lob-catchers, rim protectors, and perimeter players. FFS, Bagley meets 3 out of 4!

Am I the only one who thinks Bagley is a modern 4?? He doesn't provide rim protection, but with his agility, he should be able to switch 1-5 with more learning right?

Yes, he is.

What he isn't, is a modern 5 man. The guy that you can put on an island defensively and lean on to protect the rim while you surround him with a PG and three wings.

In that scenario, Bagley would have to function as (or at least guard) a wing more than a big. With his quickness and athleticism I think he'll be a fine perimeter defender in time. If he can become a good outside shooter then he's absolutely a modern PF.

 

[206Fan]

He's certainly athletic enough to do it. I think opinions on Bagley vary mostly based on how much you think he can learn. Maybe I'm so down on him because I really liked Marquise Chriss who had similar upside and hasn't progressed at all in two years. Bagley to me plays like a guy who's body is disconnected from his brain. Ben McLemore didn't fail on the Kings because of a lack of ability or athleticism or poor work ethic. He failed because he wasn't able to process the game fast enough. We don't have a very good track record with players who have tools but lack know-how.

I too was high on Chriss. However, Chriss showed below average IQ. A big indicator was him being a gigantic foul machine at Washington. I also questioned his maturity. He was extremely over-emotional and he completely took himself out of the game at times. We still see this in Phoenix.

With Bagley, you just don't have to worry about that stuff. This will allow him to solely work on improving his skills.

 

[Blob]

But that's not what happened last season. Guys just sagged off, which is exactly how you play the pick and roll if you're not afraid of the ballhandler's outside shot. Fox both needs to get stronger so that he can be more of a threat to attack the basket even without a clear lane, and be a reliable outside threat. As long as he shoots well enough to punish teams for going under every pick then it can be an effective weapon.

Statistically Fox was in the 27th percentile of qualified players in terms of P&R efficiency. He ran P&R action more than any other King but just among Kings players he had the lowest PPP, lowest FG% out of it and the highest TO%. He DID have the second highest foul rate behind Frank Mason (Fox was slightly above the league average) which is a testament to his quickness in getting to the hoop but clearly he's got a very long way to go. Being consistent from outside off of picks is going to be the key though. And I think that's tied in to him getting stronger, especially his legs.

I know the stats were not pretty. But he showed me what I needed to see. The flashes of brilliance were there. The progress and comfort level increased. Fox made a leap defensively, in terms of getting up on his man and hassling in January or February. This is going to have carryover to the other end. In this context we played a terrible pace. Z-Bo was in Fox's way. Fox did not have a viable partner to run pick and roll. Willie was a joke as pick and roll player. Who set a decent pick for Fox? Koufos and Papa G and no one else. And these guys cannot roll or pop. This is the appeal of Bagley and probably Giles too. There is no doubt Fox needs polish on all aspects but the skills and work ethic are there. I place his dominance in this area as near certainty. I also love he can learn from Boggy, already a proven pick and roll maestro.

 

[Gguod]

I'm really getting tired of the Doncic fanatics. I have him at #2, but these fans are crazy, almost cult-like. They love to trash Bagley. They devalue him in order to lift up Doncic.

STR's recent article is titled "Drafting Marvin Bagley over Luka Doncic would be a mistake". Read what they put in the body paragraph:


So he just said Bagley would not be a fit in today's NBA. Today's NBA big men need to be: rim runners, lob-catchers, rim protectors, and perimeter players. FFS, Bagley meets 3 out of 4!

Am I the only one who thinks Bagley is a modern 4?? He doesn't provide rim protection, but with his agility, he should be able to switch 1-5 with more learning right?

Read the argumenrs that have been made. If you disagree with them, tell the rest of us whats wrong with them. And this isnt trashing Bagley. Read the Porter thread, thats trashing. This is simply evaluating how valuable are players like Bagley.

Again, read the previous arguments, read the statistical data, read the evaluations and then tell us whats wrong with them.

 

[Kingster]

That didnt answer those concerns at all. Just stated them and then ignored them. Gary Parish last year had Tatum #7, Monk #6, Fox #8 ect. Wouldnt take his word for Bagley especially with zero reasoning behind his opinion.

There are well argumented posts in this thread about Bagley but the common response is either ignore or try to pass Bagley as a good defender or a good shooter.

Dont get me wrong, I like Bagley as a kid. Hard worker, would be honored to play here ect. If we traded up for lets say #9, I would gladly have Bagley. But not at #2

Who gives a damn about below average wing span when they guy can jump get up 12 feet high with one step, and jump quickly! Manute Bol had an 8'6" and vertical reach of 10'5". Yeah, that guy is great! Let's get him!

 

[Gguod]

Who gives a damn about below average wing span when they guy can jump get up 12 feet high with one step, and jump quickly! Manute Bol had an 8'6" and vertical reach of 10'5". Yeah, that guy is great! Let's get him!

So wingspan is irrelevant is that what you are saying? Wingspan is crucial for closing in on shooters, contesting shots and disrupting dribbling.

 

[UK_King]

This statement tells me that you never watched him play.

Why would I say anything if I hadn't seen him play?

Again, we have a difference of opinion.

 

[Kingster]

So wingspan is irrelevant is that what you are saying? Wingspan is crucial for closing in on shooters, contesting shots and disrupting dribbling.

You want wingspan? Trade a bag of chips for this guy:



It's one metric. That's all.

 

[Joshoua]

Agree. Bagley also cleared 12 feet on his one-step vert. (1:10 mark) This is big league.

https://twitter.com/statuses/1009224310114807808

I’m extremely disappointed in our staff for not leaking Bagley vertical and measurements.



But they leak we don’t like Donic

 

[Hallama]

But that's not what happened last season. Guys just sagged off, which is exactly how you play the pick and roll if you're not afraid of the ballhandler's outside shot. Fox both needs to get stronger so that he can be more of a threat to attack the basket even without a clear lane, and be a reliable outside threat. As long as he shoots well enough to punish teams for going under every pick then it can be an effective weapon.

Statistically Fox was in the 27th percentile of qualified players in terms of P&R efficiency. He ran P&R action more than any other King but just among Kings players he had the lowest PPP, lowest FG% out of it and the highest TO%. He DID have the second highest foul rate behind Frank Mason (Fox was slightly above the league average) which is a testament to his quickness in getting to the hoop but clearly he's got a very long way to go. Being consistent from outside off of picks is going to be the key though. And I think that's also tied in to him getting stronger, especially his legs so that they are more involved in his shot. Hopefully Giles isn't the only guy doing trap bar deadlifts this summer.

What I notice about Fox in the half court is he moves horizontal and doesn't present himself in attack mode. He needs to get more downhill.

 

[Gguod]

You want wingspan? Trade a bag of chips for this guy:

View attachment 7798

It's one metric. That's all.

Nice argumenting, good for you. Bagley doesnt have defensive instincts and has mediocre tools (which wingspan is a part of). Wether you like it or not, thats the case

 

[Kingster]

I take it back about McGee. Don't trade for him. Find John Riek wherever he is and sign him for the minimum. He beat McGee in wingspan with 7'8.75"!

 

[sterö]

He has shown the ability to be a solid one-on-one defender. He was in the 94th percentile actually in terms of one-on-one defence. In terms of team defence he has a lot of room to grow, but I think he can be a solid defender in the NBA.

Source: https://stats.nba.com/articles/2018-nba-draft-profile-marvin-bagley/

I clearly see him as a 4 and not a 5. If he learns to shoot he has to potential to be great. I still have Luka #1, but would also be happy with Marvin.

 

[BigVirg]

One thing i think a lot of us over look is Vlade's hire of Joerger. Does anyone think its a coincidence that Dave's offense is eerily similar to the high post offense rick adelman used to run? That being said what you saw back in our hay day and several years ago in Memphis was the utilization of 2 play-making bigs that operate out of the high post. We saw WCS crash and burn in that position last year but from the whispers around the team are that Giles' passing is very good therefore he should be able to play that position. That leaves Bagley as the other high post player and i think he can be effective there as well. He's a better passer than people saw at Duke due to his role and from what i can tell is at his best when he's faced up in a triple threat position where he can jab step and use his speed or take an attacking dribble and make a lighting quick spin move. My point is that this isn't a dribble drive rinse and repeat offense that requires ball dominant guards and therefore adding another ball dominant play-maker is counter productive to flow of the offense. Vlade hired Joerger for a reason and i do believe this is another reason why we like the idea of pairing Giles and Bagley together. I'm at peace with who ever we pick but I do believe this is what Vlade is thinking.

 

[ESP47]

I'm really getting tired of the Doncic fanatics. I have him at #2, but these fans are crazy, almost cult-like. They love to trash Bagley. They devalue him in order to lift up Doncic.

STR's recent article is titled "Drafting Marvin Bagley over Luka Doncic would be a mistake". Read what they put in the body paragraph:


So he just said Bagley would not be a fit in today's NBA. Today's NBA big men need to be: rim runners, lob-catchers, rim protectors, and perimeter players. FFS, Bagley meets 3 out of 4!

Am I the only one who thinks Bagley is a modern 4?? He doesn't provide rim protection, but with his agility, he should be able to switch 1-5 with more learning right?

That wasn't trashing, those concerns are just as legit as any concern you'd have about any player in this draft.

If you think Bagley is a modern 4 then you are projecting him to be able to switch defensively on to much smaller players on the perimeter and you're projecting him to be a good shooter from 3.

His 3 point shot, while the percentage was good, was a fairly small sample size and it's coupled with a low FT%. Shots not broken but it's not a skill he's going to come into the league and already have in his arsenal so you have to project it developing from a pretty small amount of collected evidence.

His lateral quickness looked decent enough but there is a lot more to defense than just laterally trying to stay with a player that's trying to take you off the bounce. Bagley showed very poor team defensive instincts so you must project him to completely turn that around. Skal has the same problem and has shown the ability to improve in that area so it's not an impossible thing to ask for but his improvement in that area is paramount to whether he becomes a wasted pick or not.

Also you basically have to live with the fact that due to his wingspan, he will never become a rim protector. He's either a PF or bust because you aren't winning with him playing as your C. As a PF, he must improve both of this weaknesses I talked about or else he's just going to wind up being a Vucevic type player that puts up the numbers on the stat sheet but has little impact on winning games.

If Doncic can't beat guys off the bounce, he's basically Bogie at worst. If Bagley can't shoot or defend, he's a wasted pick. I think guys are weary of his floor as far as impacting winning basketball and that's why he gets the criticism that he does because non defending big men don't succeed in the NBA.

 

[Kingster]

And where is Zhou Qi? Who is Zhou Qi? He's got a 7'7.75" wingspan. Draft him at #2.

 

[roasthawg]

https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018...-on-2018-nba-draft-prospects-sacramento-kings

This is old but thought I'd post anyways as I think bagley is gonna be the pick tomorrow:

Believes Marvin Bagley III is the best player in this draft
Would take Mo Bamba over Deandre Ayton
Doesn’t think Ayton will improve in the NBA
Wouldn’t touch Michael Porter Jr in the top 10
Wouldn’t touch Luka Doncic in the top 10

 

[Gguod]

One thing i think a lot of us over look is Vlade's hire of Joerger. Does anyone think its a coincidence that Dave's offense is eerily similar to the high post offense rick adelman used to run? That being said what you saw back in our hay day and several years ago in Memphis was the utilization of 2 play-making bigs that operate out of the high post. We saw WCS crash and burn in that position last year but from the whispers around the team are that Giles' passing is very good therefore he should be able to play that position. That leaves Bagley as the other high post player and i think he can be effective there as well. He's a better passer than people saw at Duke due to his role and from what i can tell is at his best when he's faced up in a triple threat position where he can jab step and use his speed or take an attacking dribble and make a lighting quick spin move. My point is that this isn't a dribble drive rinse and repeat offense that requires ball dominant guards and therefore adding another ball dominant play-maker is counter productive to flow of the offense. Vlade hired Joerger for a reason and i do believe this is another reason why we like the idea of pairing Giles and Bagley together. I'm at peace with who ever we pick but I do believe this is what Vlade is thinking.

If we run two non shooting bigs horns offense again next year, Joeger should be fired.

And where is Zhou Qi? Who is Zhou Qi? He's got a 7'7.75" wingspan. Draft him at #2.

Try to learn how to have a conversation

 

[Telemachus]

Why would I say anything if I hadn't seen him play?

Again, we have a difference of opinion.

You insinuated that Bagley is someone who only can score with a bunch of lobs. That is so far from the truth that either you haven't seem him play or you are making things up to back up your point of view. Bagley runs the floor well and does score some on lobs, but that isn't what makes him a good prospect. He has a very good post game with a variety of moves to beat his man. He establishes position early making it harder to defend him. He has an elite 2nd and 3rd jump which is huge on the boards. He also is a very good ball handler in the open court. He didn't get to show much of a face up game at Duke, but did in HS and AAU. He also didn't shoot from the perimeter much at Duke, but was very effective when he did. Comparing him to TRob was beyond a joke. TRob's post game in college was bullying his way through the defender. He had no outside shot. The only thing did really well was rebound.
Bagley's biggest weakness is defense which is something he has never been asked to do. He showed the ability to defend well on the perimeter (where he was usually asked to play)in isolation. He stuggled with team defense and awareness. This is something that can be learned. He doesn't need to be a great defender. He justs needs to not be a negative (which is very possible with his skillset). And for those who keep saying he has a short wingspan, he has an average wingspan for a player his size. I don't know when it became a negative to not have an above average wingspan.

 

[UK_King]

You insinuated that Bagley is someone who only can score with a bunch of lobs. That is so far from the truth that either you haven't seem him play or you are making things up to back up your point of view. Bagley runs the floor well and does score some on lobs, but that isn't what makes him a good prospect. He has a very good post game with a variety of moves to beat his man. He establishes position early making it harder to defend him. He has an elite 2nd and 3rd jump which is huge on the boards. He also is a very good ball handler in the open court. He didn't get to show much of a face up game at Duke, but did in HS and AAU. He also didn't shoot from the perimeter much at Duke, but was very effective when he did. Comparing him to TRob was beyond a joke. TRob's post game in college was bullying his way through the defender. He had no outside shot. The only thing did really well was rebound.
Bagley's biggest weakness is defense which is something he has never been asked to do. He showed the ability to defend well on the perimeter (where he was usually asked to play)in isolation. He stuggled with team defense and awareness. This is something that can be learned. He doesn't need to be a great defender. He justs needs to not be a negative (which is very possible with his skillset). And for those who keep saying he has a short wingspan, he has an average wingspan for a player his size. I don't know when it became a negative to not have an above average wingspan.

If you read the trail I was replying to ozymandis who said if Bagley and fox develop a chemistry we should "see a few lobs per game"

I didnt insinuate he can only score from lobs.

 

[Kingster]

If we run two non shooting bigs horns offense again next year, Joeger should be fired.



Try to learn how to have a conversation

You wanted to talk about wingspan. I'm talking wingspan. And I'm offering examples of wingspan. And of the non-importance of wingspan as a be all end all of characteristics. Try to learn how to understand. Wingspan is one element in rebounding, blocking shots and defending. And if you are able to jump very high very quickly and have above average mobility and an incredible motor it is reduced in importance in the overall picture.

 

[Kingster]

Back to the Duke-NC game I recorded. It is amazing how many times Bagley was the first one down the floor on fast breaks, only to end up being guarded by a point guard (if that) and the Duke guards didn't get him the ball. Bagley just kept running and running and running, despite the fact the Duke guards had either the inability or the incapability to get him the ball. I don't think that's going to be happening with Fox, Bogs, and Giles on the floor.

 

[Gguod]

You wanted to talk about wingspan. I'm talking wingspan. And I'm offering examples of wingspan. And of the non-importance of wingspan as a be all end all of characteristics. Try to learn how to understand. Wingspan is one element in rebounding, blocking shots and defending. And if you are able to jump very high very quickly and have above average mobility and an incredible motor it is reduced in importance in the overall picture.

Wingspan is a part of defensive tools. Bagley allready lacks defensive instincts. His wingspan is below average, lateral quickness is okay so he has mediocre defensive tools. All the other physical tools were non existent on the defensive end and thats mainly because he doesnt have the instincts so he is not often enough in a position to use his quick second jump ect Not so hard to understand that you have to take the arguing to a kid level

 

[Kingster]

Wingspan is a part of defensive tools. Bagley allready lacks defensive instincts. His wingspan is below average, lateral quickness is okay so he has mediocre defensive tools. All the other physical tools were non existent on the defensive end and thats mainly because he doesnt have the instincts so he is not often enough in a position to use his quick second jump ect Not so hard to understand that you have to take the arguing to a kid level

Oh please, don't get in a twist. You don't like Bagley. I get it. He's going to be sooo slow on the court because he can't react to what's going on (there must be some congenital problem because you don't believe he can get better) that he's going to be a poor defensive player. We'll see...