I sure as hell would: at least, with SCV's, you're only going to give up a third as many transition points.
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theclash4u5
Starter
Of course it's always the coach or management, they're the ones who put the team together and coach it. Our talent level on this team is pathetic without Cousins.
Malone said that, huh? Now I wish I hadn't just deleted that stinkburger after the end of the game, because I'd like to have heard the post-game presser. I don't know how those quotes sounded, but they read like quotes from a man who knows he's being fired, honestly.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I'm done here. I do not share the view of the people who have power and have trouble with an idea that is not similar to theirs This place is a fan site. I am a fan and I enjoy the Kings. It seems I have to justify my enjoyment. Perhaps I am misjudging. I don't care because posting here is losing its enjoyment.
I like the Kings but even with that attitude, there is far more to this world than this.
I like the Kings but even with that attitude, there is far more to this world than this.
KingsFanGER
Starter
Gilles already pointed it out, but i have to ask: "Which talent?"
We are not talented without Cousins. That's it.
And to get the most out of a roster with mediocre talent level, the players have to have some chemistry and know each other well. Problem is, that we overhauled our roster in the offseason to some degree and the blind understanding can't be there yet.
You simply can't compare our team to the Spurs, who play the same core almost for a decade or even to GS, Portland, OKC or Dallas. With low IQ basketball players like JT, Reggie, Sessions, Dwill, Hollins and to some extent Landry, you won't get ever near the ball movement of the better teams in the league. These guys are journeyman, who carved out a role by hard work (not couting Dwill and Sessions here) and not by showing any real basketball talent.
Get Cousins healthy and continue to play off him for the rest of the season. And than take the next step and improve the roster, by keeping the core of DMC, Gay, DC and Ben.
For me this season is really fun to watch, no matter if we lose a ton of games without DMC. Kings are competing every game. They try to play as a team and focus on D and rebounding. It looks like every player is doing his best and that it's about winning and not about getting the best individual record. Huge step from last season and I'm very positive, that we can keep up improving given time and a few more roster moves.
Good times ahead of us. Just be patient and enjoy the ride.
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Sure, you would prefer SCV to just throwing the ball off that allows transition opportunities for your opponent, but you would only do it, if you know in advance, that this sequence of passes would lead to a TO, and one thing I'm sure of is that no NBA player is passing the ball with the intention to commit a TO. It's just poor judgement of the situation and flawed decision-making.
They spent whole training camp building the game around Boogie and to a lesser extent Rudy for some really good starting results, and now team has to do it all over again except it's all Rudy now basically. And with benefit of perspective I don't think we should take that start at face value, because Kings sneaked up on people, some like Grizzlies or Mavs woke up in time (I know, I know, some striped jerseys were heavily involved as well), some didn't. But now everyone comes to Sacramento to play against PO team, while young Kings allow themselves to not play hard all the time.
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Chubbs
Starter
The turnovers are spiking without cousins. That's a fact.
The reason knowledge able basketball people and media aren't blaming the coach every game is because that is flat out wrong. It's almost equally a talent issue. Who you blame depends on your place in the organization. As a fan, I'm split.
I am not saying malone is perfect. But 100% of the problem?
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Sac.Kings
All-Star
Our talent problem is not that severe even without Cousins. Turnovers don't equal lack of talent. It equals lack of practice and not knowing the plays. Even San Antonio scrubs can beat anyone because of the system, it's hammered into their heads that they could probably run each play backwards. The problem is that Malone has not made an effort to correct obvious problems. Detroit sucks, we mock them on here on a daily basis and yet we lose to them? Pretty pathetic. Malone saying he is proud of the effort? I agree with the poster above that this sounds like a man on the verge of being fired. Thus far you can't tell me Malone has been a good coach. Cousins has covered his weaknesses just like he covers the players weaknesses. When turnovers are a season long problem and it is still a problem 24 games in, you're doing something wrong. Stupid lineups, keeping the starters on the bench too long, high turnovers every game, losing to bad teams.. a lot of that is on the coach.
Chubbs
Starter
You may be right. Ty Corbin is just sitting on the bench one row behind him waiting.
Maybe it's the right move. What's going on sure isn't working. It really depends how great a roster Vivek and PDA think they gave malone. I think we know they think they've done a good job. And Malone is the outsider in that love fest. Personally, I don't blame the coach entirely, but I'd bet you Vivek and PDA do.
You really may be right. Malone may not last till the all star break. Those quotes are from a defeated man who sees the writing on the wall.
Him and harbaugh can hang out. Harbaugh may be fired at halftime today.
I've gotta admit, my best instincts do blame Malone to a certain extent. Trolls (problem now solved) have me defending the 100% Malone's fault position on the basis that nothing is ever 100%. But, it's at least 50-75%. And that might be just too much for Vivek and his crony to take much longer.
I agree the talent is equally a problem. There's a large drop off between rudy and the next guy. There's a few that can fill that role on any given night. But most nights, it's going to be a struggle. But there's enough talent there to beat the Pistons, lakers, and magic. It's just sloppy ugly disorganized basketball. That IS on the coach to a certain extent.
The "judging on wins and losses" line? I believe that was directed at Malone.
Yep, he's in trouble and knows it. Those quotes were illuminating.
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The whole talent issue thing would be a lot more believable if we simply fell behind and never came close. Look at the Sixers earlier in the season - they were losing many games by a huge margin, often falling behind by great amounts in the first half alone. We on the other hand, led the Lakers most of the way, led the Rockets most of the way. Same with the Pacers game that we darn near lost. The Lakers are not a more talented team than us, even without Cousins. Nor are the Rockets without Howard, Jones and Canaan. And some of these teams were playing on a back to back too.
We certainly aren't the most talented team without Cousins, but we aren't the least either, and should have won some of these games that we lost. It's not 100% Malone's fault - it's rarely EVER 100% anyone's fault. But I do think some here are absolving him too much. Coaches aren't there only to manage rotations in games. It's true that the players are at fault for not executing, but when it happens time and time again it's clear that something sets apart good coaches from bad ones, and it's not just the talent on the team.
Chubbs
Starter
Yeah, I agree. There's something missing in the way this team responds to stress. And that certainly could be on the coach.
We should have won a lot of these games. No doubt. Up to Vivek and PDA to make a move.
The misuse of reggie Evans is absolutely baffling. He's been around a decade. I've never seen him handle the ball this much in the high post.
PS-no need to remind me that I have defended Malone. I remember.
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KingsFanGER
Starter
Sounds to me like that the coach does a good job, if you lead most of the way against those teams. And excuse me, but the talent level of the Rockets is not even close to ours. No offense, but on this board the Kings players tend to get overvalued quite a bit. Harden is the top SG of the league. Ariza is a very good wing. Dmo plays really well, with Howard out and has size, handles and post game. Beverley is a decent defensive PG.
We have Rudy, who is agueably in the Top 10 to Top 5 of NBA SF's and than pretty much nothing else except some solid roleplayers.
And while the Rockets can play their way with Howard out, the Kings need to alter their style of play entirely, cause their whole gameplan doesn't work without Cousins.
Lakers have a better froncourt, Pistons frontcourt isn't even close to ours - the only team who we should really beat not matter what, are the Pacers without their PG and SF.
I agree, that you can't put all blame on the players. Coach Malone is accountable for some of the mistakes we made. But in my opinion the players are far more responsible for this and it looks that some of you, forgot, where the Kings were a season ago. There is some serious negative vibe in here right now.
Livinthedream
All-Star
Our talent level isn't the best from top to bottom. However, our starters, even without Cousins should compete with LAL, Orl, Det. This is evident by the leads we get in almost every game. It falls apart down the stretch and when the pressure is on. Other teams turn up the intensity and we wilt. That is not a talent issue at that point in time. It's a mental and execution issue. It is absolutely the coaches job to put the team in position to succeed at those times. That is precisely when coaching comes into play. At the end of games.
If we get to the end of the game and we simply miss shots to win, then I'd be ok with it. But we're not executing plays if there are even appropriate plays being run at all. The team is falling apart mentally and it's getting worse each game. Evidence of missed free throws that we weren't missing before. Evidence of players trying to make passes when it's impossible to make them and our best player going 1 on 3 in a half court set. Evidence by our solid defense going away in the last 3 minutes of every game. All the players in the NBA are capable of running a play. Coach.....tell them HOW they need to play down the stretch. Telling Rudy to take over is not an answer.
If we get to the end of the game and we simply miss shots to win, then I'd be ok with it. But we're not executing plays if there are even appropriate plays being run at all. The team is falling apart mentally and it's getting worse each game. Evidence of missed free throws that we weren't missing before. Evidence of players trying to make passes when it's impossible to make them and our best player going 1 on 3 in a half court set. Evidence by our solid defense going away in the last 3 minutes of every game. All the players in the NBA are capable of running a play. Coach.....tell them HOW they need to play down the stretch. Telling Rudy to take over is not an answer.
Section 101
All-Star
Better look at the last few games. Corbin hasn't been there.
Certain people are probably going to jump all over me for making this analogy, but this is starting to remind me of how everything was Rick Adelman's fault for his last couple years here even as the roster was falling apart and none of his Kings teams failed to make the playoffs. Nothing I say is going to change your minds, but I suggest those of you who strongly believe that Mike Malone is the problem should take a step back from your disappointment over the last half dozen tough losses and realize that there's four months of basketball left to be played this season and sometime soon we'll be in position to add a top 5 center to our roster and play a whole slew of cupcake Eastern conference teams. Have you already forgotten that we played the toughest schedule in the league the first month and looked damn good doing it? We don't start this season 9-5 without Mike Malone. Close losses are tough, but let's maintain some perspective here.
Chubbs
Starter
You're wrong. He was at the last game.
Livinthedream
All-Star
We are all aware of the absence of Cousins when we make our criticism if the coaching. While Cousins is out is exactly when I can see what type if coach he is. I'm watching execution and adjustments. Not wins and losses.
Best post I've read in weeks. Bravo!
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Another well thought out post. The posts thinking Malone is in jeopardy of being fired.....I just am flabbergasted at that thought process. As far as that interview after the game and how he answered some questions......... I personally think that because of the death of Ryan Hollins' father and the fact that Hollins was there in the locker room probably changes Malones usual "matter of fact" assessments post game.
Cousins likes Coach Malone.......end of discussion. You don't think Vivek realizes that?!? And as Hardboiled said above, Malone has to be given credit for the early record. You don't start talking about firing a guy now that they can't win without Cousins. That's just moronic.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Malone is an issue. A coach's job, flat out, is to put the team and its talent in the best situation possible to succeed. Malone isn't doing that. We've get a very poor offensive system which doesn't create easy looks, even when Cuz is out there. Lineups and sub patterns are highly questionable at times. While Malone talks defense, his small ball, non-defensive lineups say otherwise and he's not all that good at making in-game adjustments.
However, this is also a coach who with Cuz had us playing at a playoff level in the West and was a coaching a team that could knock off any team on any given night. That was with a terrible bench we got nothing from most nights. Maybe the worst bench in the league.
We'll have a problem if our FO and Vivek use Malone as a scapegoat. The real problem is the lack of talent on this roster and the inability to address weaknesses which have plagued us for years. If our FO and Vivek think canning the coach and promoting Corbin answers most of our issues, they're completely miscalculating the talent on the roster they put together. While we were busy trying to sign Jordan Crawford who's now in China, 3rd bigs were getting signed around the league.
Both Malone and the team are far too dependent on Cuz. The underlying theme is we don't have enough talent once he went down. With all due respect to Omri, when his absence is this noticeable, it's largely due to a lack of talent throughout the roster.
However, this is also a coach who with Cuz had us playing at a playoff level in the West and was a coaching a team that could knock off any team on any given night. That was with a terrible bench we got nothing from most nights. Maybe the worst bench in the league.
We'll have a problem if our FO and Vivek use Malone as a scapegoat. The real problem is the lack of talent on this roster and the inability to address weaknesses which have plagued us for years. If our FO and Vivek think canning the coach and promoting Corbin answers most of our issues, they're completely miscalculating the talent on the roster they put together. While we were busy trying to sign Jordan Crawford who's now in China, 3rd bigs were getting signed around the league.
Both Malone and the team are far too dependent on Cuz. The underlying theme is we don't have enough talent once he went down. With all due respect to Omri, when his absence is this noticeable, it's largely due to a lack of talent throughout the roster.
I understand that. And I agree that the execution at the end of games has been wanting. It's fair to say Malone isn't the best Xs and Os coach in the game, but that's fine. That's not what he was brought in for. And I do think he's getting better in that area, or was getting better before the injuries shifted the lineup. Just before Cousins got sick we had a stretch of games where we were missing Rudy Gay and then another stretch where we were missing both Gay and Collison. We've been a patchwork of fill-ins for nearly a month. A lot of the turnovers come from players forcing passes which aren't there or just generally trying to do too much on their own. That's natural when you're asking them to play roles that they aren't accustomed to. It's not by choice -- who on our roster can adequately substitute for Cousins? Rudy? Darren? Nobody. Cousins and Rudy are both top 10 scorers. Darren was specifically brought in to move the ball and find baskets for everyone else, not take over games himself.
And everyone already knows that Rudy as #1 option doesn't work without some kind of solid post presence. Heck, the same could be said of the best players in the game could it not? Kobe's Lakers struggled mightily post-Shaq and now post-Gasol. Lebron couldn't win until he paired with Bosh in Miami. The West is highly competitive. Even the bottom feeders have talented rosters. Without Cousins and Rudy playing at the top of their game and Darren, JT, and Ben contributing we're not going to make much of a mark. Perhaps Greg Popovich could find a way to win games with this roster and no Cousins, but that's why he's a hall of fame coach. That can't be your standard for every coaching position in the NBA.
It matters to me how good the team looked before injuries screwed up our lineup. Not only did we start 9-5, but we dominated Dallas and Memphis on the road and easily could have been 11-3 against the best that the West has to offer. We couldn't finish those games off, but these are experienced playoff teams playing at home and we're a young upstart with a solid starting 5 and no bench. It's part of the growing process. And if we'd kept up that pace Malone would be in the conversation for coach of the year. Is it wrong to ask for some patience here? Hold off judgement on Malone's incompetence until we get our lineup back together and push into the middle of the season looking to build some momentum. Maybe you'll look back at this topic 4 months from now and laugh.
Agree mostly with all your post. But playing devil's advocate and/or addressing Malone's offense and defensive philosophy.....
Malone is on record as saying that a bad offense leads to a bad defense as much as anything. This may explain his penchant for some of the small ball lineups. Problem is that we have so many guys who we don't know what we are getting from game to game...DWill, Landry, Sessions, Stauskas, And if Ryan Hollins is our option in the middle to stay big....well, Hollins is not very good. History says so and we see it every night.
Another huge key that can't be laid at Malone's feet is the lack of 3 point threats. We have 1 in Ben at over 40%
Collison, Sessioms 30%. Casspi 18%. Ray is 28%. Stauskas, who was drafted to provide this is at24%. Gay and surprisingly DWill are 36%. May explain a little of why DWill has been seeing more time. We could get away with this type of 3 point shooting when we had Cousins and we did win. Take Cousins away and that lack of 3 point shooting is killing this team. We are in the bottom 3 in 3 pointers made per game along with Minnesota and Charlotte. Looking at many of the best teams they are making 3's at a high rate and take a lot. This team still doesn't have 3point shooting and we need it...badly.
It's still a flawed roster....very flawed. I'm not going to lay that at Malone's feet. I thought he was coaching his ass off when Cuz was healthy because it was still a flawed roster.
KingsFanGER
Starter
Reggie is a bad defender. Hollins is a bad defender outside of blocking some shots. JT is average on D, but is often in foul trouble. I would get all these complains, if Malone would keep some guy like Gibson on the bench for Dwill or Landry, but with our current roster Malone has to pick his poison.
randymoss1881
Starter
My friend this forum is getting comical and borderline unreadable with the malone hate it's reaching IT nut huggers level. People in here probably blame malone for cousins getting sick. They want ball moving to be at spurs level shut that crap up only 2 teams move the ball like that and it's spurs/GS. You know what they have I'm common ****ing all stars and solid players all there 10th man would be our 6th man. They think Corbin is the 2nd coming when on reality he was a failure in Utah. These same people gave malone 0 credit when we win and we win dispite him to them.
Now I'm not one of those who thinks Malone should be fired or anything like that. But statements like these are precisely why I feel a need to jump in and defend those blaming Malone. Are you legitimately telling me that Jeff Ayres/ Matt Bonner would be our 6th man? Or how about when OKC beat us early in the season when we had Cousins? Did they have any all stars playing then? Or did Reggie Jackson and Jeremy Lamb suddenly become some MVP candidates or something like that? People talk about Kings fans overvaluing our own players, but I think sometimes we overvalue other players as well just because they come in and play well against us (see: Petrie, Geoff). This excuse that oh the Kings are just a bunch of D-league players + DMC is complete and utter bull****. Rudy Gay is a top 5 SF in the league, Ben is coming along well and DC is solid. We've even "benefited" from having DWill give us some decent games in this stretch. It's funny how when we're winning oh Malone is great, PDA is great, players are great, but once we're losing it's as if Malone doesn't share any blame at all but the others do.
Both "sides" need to just chill and stop making ridiculous black or white statements. The Kings are a team, that includes the players, coaching staff and GM. When we win, it's because of all of them. Likewise when we lose over a stretch of games, all share in the blame.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
LOL. You win the thread with those lines.
The thing Malone has going for him is that he was hired directly by Vivek. I'd be a lot more concerned, otherwise. Even though Vivek isn't a longtime basketball expert, I hope he can see the talent void in this bunch. There may be synergy when Cousins is in there, but there's not much there without him. Before Cousins got injured, I said I thought this was a .300 team with Cousins out of the lineup; I guess I was a tad optimistic.
On the contrary, I'd prefer SCV to them attempting to do anything on offense, when we don't have at least three of our Opening Night starters on the court. I didn't say anything about passing the ball, but I don't want them to do that, either. And this isn't a new sentiment; I was saying this back when we were 5-1.
K
KingMilz
Guest
Eric Spolstra must be a terrible coach than since the Heat with Bosh/Wade/Deng/Chalmers/McRoberts (Wade/McRob missing some games) are below 500. (playing in the East) but with LeBron (instead of Deng) they made the finals............
I'm not suggesting Malone is a good coach but the thing is he's never had a good team to coach other than when we have Cousins/Gay/Collison all healthy and when he does we have whopped Portland/Clippers/Spurs/Suns @there home and Bulls and are like 7-3 and if it were not for a bad call should have beaten the Grizzlies and were up 20 points on a explosive Dallas team on THERE home floor.
Randy Wittman/Terry Stotts were both considering awful coaches (with awful records)before the Wizards traded for Nene/Gortat/Miller and drafted Beal to build around Wall (pun intended). Same with Stotts until he got one of the best starting 5's in the L he was considering garbage as well.
At least let the roster be 100% healthy before calling out a coach, coaching in the toughest conference in some time with a average talented roster for that conference we are in.
I'm not suggesting Malone is a good coach but the thing is he's never had a good team to coach other than when we have Cousins/Gay/Collison all healthy and when he does we have whopped Portland/Clippers/Spurs/Suns @there home and Bulls and are like 7-3 and if it were not for a bad call should have beaten the Grizzlies and were up 20 points on a explosive Dallas team on THERE home floor.
Randy Wittman/Terry Stotts were both considering awful coaches (with awful records)before the Wizards traded for Nene/Gortat/Miller and drafted Beal to build around Wall (pun intended). Same with Stotts until he got one of the best starting 5's in the L he was considering garbage as well.
At least let the roster be 100% healthy before calling out a coach, coaching in the toughest conference in some time with a average talented roster for that conference we are in.
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True, but in a lot of those wins and losses one can clearly see the consistently terrible coaching with regards to match-ups, substitution patterns, and instituting the needed in-game adjustments. And like you said we could have been easily 11-3, but again we weren't, and I put the blame on Malone's poor coaching as evident on those games we lose.
Just review the posts of kingsfans who watched those games and clearly it was poor coaching that brought us here.
Again, the roster is not this bad. Maybe Sessions/Stauskas were consistently bad, but it was Malone's fault that he continued to insists using them in crucial times of the game. We should have won against a lot of bottom dweller teams with or without Cousins. We deserve to win at least 5 of those winnable games that slipped in our hands.
What kind of an NBA coach would give the ball in the hands of an under-performing rookie (Stauskas) on a crucial moment to win a game?
I cannot remember any NBA coach who had done that kind of embarrassing blunder, not even the dumb Keith Smart or Westphall.
That alone should tell you our coach is so dumb.
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I hope you realized those 3 are an awesome 3 and can match-up pound for pound with any other big three in this league (except probably Cleveland and OKC).
We won against Portland/Clippers/Spurs/Suns and Bulls because roster-wise we can match them pound for pound. The only reason we would lose against those teams is because they are more experienced and they are well-coached.
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