Entity
Hall of Famer
I think Salmons stays
I think Salmons stays
Oh it was absolutely the right move but I think almost anyone in Petrie's position at the time would have made it. The move was a no-brainer, so much so that many arm chair GMs were recommending it way before it happened.
Defense.
There is another way to look at it. The Maloofs were desperate to get back into the mainstream publicity circus that deserted the Kings after Webber's trade. The publicity they garnered by letting Adelman walk was followed quickly by the marvelous news of new coach Eric Musselman's arrest on a DUI before he even stepped on the court. By January 2006, it was pretty clear to everyone that the golden days of the Kings were in the past and something desperately needed to be done. By bringing the mercurical and polarizing Artest into the mix, the Maloofs pretty much guaranteed they'd be the talk of the town, one way or the other. And Artest didn't fail to produce results... Not saying that's the only way to look at things, but in retrospect it certainly makes sense.
jcwkings
All-Star
I wouldn't say we are out of the Ellis sweepstakes yet. We can still amnesty salmons, and lets face it no one other than cousins and the new players are gauranteed to be here come training camp. If the FO wants Ellis that bad, it can still be done. This a good signing non the less, great defender that knows his role, good lockeroom guy and professional too. Say what you want but Moute, Landry, and Vasquez are all culture changing signings. All pros that work hard.
Mass
Starter
If we start Patterson, we don't really nead an SF who can shoot the 3. Basically, Patterson would be the SF on offense spacing the floor and Mbah a Moute would be the Sf on defense, guarding the player that P-Pat can't guard. With McLemore (and Thornton if he stays) at the 2, and Vasquez and IT at the 1, we have enough shooting. You don't need 4 shooters on the floor, so I'm not worried Mbah a Moute is not a shooter. Finally it looks like we are taking care of defense, even if I still think we are going to try to find our starting SF. Mbah a Moute (MaM?!?) is good, but not a 35 mins guy.
Padrino
All-Star
no, but it's pretty easy to make the argument that a legitimate second option behind demarcus cousins is a necessity "with tyreke gone." and unless ben mclemore can replicate tyreke's rookie production, the kings are going to have a lot of trouble scoring when opposing defenses shut down the early offense. i like the mbah a moute acquisition as much as everybody else, but the kings still need to bring in a clear #2 if they plan to make a push for the 10th, 9th, 8th seeds before cousins has decided he's tired of losing...
As for myself, I simply don't expect Thornton to be in purple by the end of the summer. If Thornton does stay, I'd guess he starts over McLemore, at least at the start of the year, and depending on how things go, maybe the whole season.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
One more time in case I have not said this before: Marcus Thornton can't be here is BMac is here. They are both pure SGs. Neither can swing. So either your lottery pick gets squished for minutes, or Thornton gets squished and hence becomes untradeable with his $8mil/yr contract. He's got to be moved.
And I say that as someone who thinks its entirely likely he's going to be better than BMac next year. Possibly always. Doesn't matter. those guys are not flexible, so pairing them makes no sense. Pairing them when one guy has a big contract even less sense. If BMac is anything lie we hope he is you'd be paying $8mil for 16min a night.
kingjatt
Starter
I disagree, shooting and spacing are now more important than ever in the hyper-athletic NBA, in order for teams to run sets or PnRs they must create lanes and space to operate in, Luc is a solid guy but still is a bit of a situational player like chuck hayes and somewhat of a bog down on the offensive end as his man will almost always cheat off causing havoc for our other guys, i mean theres a reason we got him for a couple of 2nd rounders 3-5 years from now, hes a positive move, but only a starter with 3-4 knockdown shooters around him.
I said it elsewhere, but I don't believe we ever were IN the sweepstakes for Ellis. I think word got out we were talking to Milwauke about Moute but someone saw "Monte" instead and ran with it. No one ever seemed to independently confirm the initial report from Marc Stein.
Mass
Starter
I understand your point, but I'm not so sure we don't have enough offense. DMC of course is gonna be our 1st option, but then we have many scorers. MT (don't know if he stays, but right now he's on the roster), Thomas, Patterson, McLemore (hopefully will be our 2nd option), Landry. They all can score. So, I'm not really worried about our offense. Actually, I'm glad we are fixing the D.
CruzDude
Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
You hit it on the head. Very true and very much in the vein of what the FO was saying at the beginning. A lock-down defender at the 3 who can add 10 pts a game and 6 rebs is quite a plus. Really like this and think the horse trading is 1 more away from being done.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
When you think about it, its actually very similar to the move Petrie made last year with Johnson. That too was a 2nd round pick for a decently youngish SF/PF defender type intended to take Salmons' place. I just think this one is more disciplined (after years under Skiles you'd have to be) has a better chance to not be disruptive on offense.
If all that happened this summer is that we drafted McLemore, re-signed Tyreke, and acquired Mbah A Moute I would have been absolutely thrilled with this new front office. But as much as I like those two other moves, trading out Evans for Vasquez and Ellis is so atrociously bad in my opinion that it casts a dark cloud over everything else. Still really hope Ellis does not come here. It's not really that I'm expecting miracles, just stick to your defense-first philosophy and we'll get along just fine.
theclash4u5
Starter
Yeah, and he has another year on his contract so he's not going to try to make himself look like the new Jordan or something like Johnson did. Plus, he hasn't been caught by his team smoking pot in the team airplane.
Thornton, Thomas, McLemore, Landry. The offense is going to be fine
Agent23
Starter
Not really. Mbah a Moute has years of proven defensive excellence (individual and team), is highly intelligent, and understand how to fit in on offense. Johnson has basically the exact opposite mentality of Mbah. Bad locker room guy, thought he was Kobe offensively, decent defender when he wanted to give effort, and a very low Bbal IQ
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Agreed. Mbah is a high BBIQ guy. High character guy also. He could be a fan favorite very soon.
Jkbiker
Starter
I do not see how it could be done
Salaries (without Reke) 9 players 41,589
Landry/Moute/Vasquez 6.5/4.5/2.15 13,150
Ben #7/Ray (2.42/.90) 3,320
Total 14 players 58,059
Even with the amnesty (7.5 mil) would need a trades to get cap relief 3.5 to 4.5 mil
I guess P Pat 3.2 and Jimmer 2.6 are both Enders , maybe some value
Hayes 2 yrs 5.7 and Outlaw 2 yrs 3 mil I just don't see as tradeable
Thorton has value, but I would want some value in return - not just a salary dump
So My guess we are done with Ellis
Only transactions I see left would be a salary for salary trade - or an amnesty plus salary 4 salary trade - or amnesty and another mediocre fa signing
I thought since Ellis is Unrestr Free agent a sign and trade would not work
I honestly think this was either an error or a smokescreen. Aside from that guy at RealGM, nobody is still talking Ellis to the Kings.
Padrino
All-Star
well, ideally this theoretical second option would be a dynamic two-way player (y'know, sorta like the 23-year-old power guard the kings traded for a non-defensive PG). beyond that, listing player personnel doesn't equate to a balanced offensive attack. it has to be the right kind of offense, and it has to be organized in a meaningful fashion, something keith smart certainly never had the skill or the balls to follow through on. i have no idea what the starting unit would look like if constructed as-is, but here's my sensibility:
PG vasquez
SG mclemore
SF mbah a moute
PF patterson
C cousins
that lineup's ability to win games is dependent on three factors: 1) demarcus cousins takes a big leap forward as the kings' cornerstone talent, 2) ben mclemore shoulders considerably more responsibility on offense than initially believed, and 3) the team isn't run outta the gym, defensively. after all, a single defensive-minded player in a starting lineup does not solidify an entire team defense...
sure, there's theoretical scoring all over the roster, but where exactly does it come from? who takes it upon themselves to put the ball in the hoop when DMC is in foul trouble, for example? if the kings are putting their faith in carl landry's or marcus thornton's or isaiah thomas' production off the bench, then that's fine. but none are starters on a winning team. and i'm not ready to anoint ben mclemore the kings' second option before he's played a single nba game. a winning team needs a legitimate second option in the starting unit to take pressure off the first option. it's just a simple balancing tactic. unless you want to create the denver nuggets 2.0, and good luck making that work without a dynamic rim attacker like ty lawson...
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rainmaker
Hall of Famer
This is a good move and shows we're still trying to improve the squad defensively. We got good value in this trade and definitely filled a need, and after the recent moves/rumors this is a clear positive.
However, will he be our starting SF or not? That's a big question as unlike I others, I disagree we need a defensive, role playing SF who's not much of an offensive threat as our starting SF. That's what we needed when discussing a possible Reke/MLM backcourt. But now that we have Vasquez/MLM, we need a SF who can create for himself and others, a 2nd 1v1 scoring threat outside of Cuz. If Mbah is our starting SF, we don't have anyone at the 1, 2 or 3 who can create on their own and that's a problem. If Mbah is a backup SF to a YTD SF, it's a great pickup and adds depth.
But we need the 2nd 1v1 threat from the perimeter which we had and haven't replaced. A lockdown defender at SF who can get you 10pts is great, if it's next to two 1v1 players who can create off the iso. But that SF next to a role playing PG and a SG who can't create his own shot is less valuable.
Until we get that 2nd 1v1 threat we're basically relying on Cuz to turn into Dirk and put all role players on his back. And Dirk as great as he is, was in the league for over a decade until he was able to do that. Or imagine Duncan without Parker's penetration and 1v1 ability, and without Manu's ability off the dribble. In that scenario, a great role player like a Leonard is considerably less valuable.
However, will he be our starting SF or not? That's a big question as unlike I others, I disagree we need a defensive, role playing SF who's not much of an offensive threat as our starting SF. That's what we needed when discussing a possible Reke/MLM backcourt. But now that we have Vasquez/MLM, we need a SF who can create for himself and others, a 2nd 1v1 scoring threat outside of Cuz. If Mbah is our starting SF, we don't have anyone at the 1, 2 or 3 who can create on their own and that's a problem. If Mbah is a backup SF to a YTD SF, it's a great pickup and adds depth.
But we need the 2nd 1v1 threat from the perimeter which we had and haven't replaced. A lockdown defender at SF who can get you 10pts is great, if it's next to two 1v1 players who can create off the iso. But that SF next to a role playing PG and a SG who can't create his own shot is less valuable.
Until we get that 2nd 1v1 threat we're basically relying on Cuz to turn into Dirk and put all role players on his back. And Dirk as great as he is, was in the league for over a decade until he was able to do that. Or imagine Duncan without Parker's penetration and 1v1 ability, and without Manu's ability off the dribble. In that scenario, a great role player like a Leonard is considerably less valuable.
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If I'm looking at this as a two year rebuild instead of a one year turnaround, I'd look at using the lottery to find that next complementary piece. We might be able to swing IT/MT plus our pick for a higher pick in next year's draft, if it's as deep as most are saying. If that is the case, not picking up Ellis would be a huge dodged bullet, because we likely could have eked out of the lottery (granted, with a lot of weirdness, but maybe Malone is just that good) and stayed mired in mediocrity for a few more years.
That said, our roster is still unbalanced. We still need size, and it would be nice to know if Mbah A Moute is being seen as the starter, at which point we need a backup SF (unless Salmons is the guy) or if we're still looking to find a starter at SF with the intent of moving Salmons.
That said, our roster is still unbalanced. We still need size, and it would be nice to know if Mbah A Moute is being seen as the starter, at which point we need a backup SF (unless Salmons is the guy) or if we're still looking to find a starter at SF with the intent of moving Salmons.
Bosnian Diehard
Starter
I think this is a very good move as we essentially got a defensive SF for peanuts. Now we need to package a guard + big men for another player we need (i.e. a defensive big?). As for next years' starting lineup, we should go with:
PG) Vasquez
SG) McLemore (who defends better than Thornton)
SF) The Prince
PF) Patterson
C) Cousins
Key Bench Players) IT, Thornton, Landry, JT
PG) Vasquez
SG) McLemore (who defends better than Thornton)
SF) The Prince
PF) Patterson
C) Cousins
Key Bench Players) IT, Thornton, Landry, JT
Bosnian Diehard
Starter
It's pretty deep. About four superstars in Wiggins, Parker, Randle, and Smart and couple second tier stars too.
