Landry vs. JT
- Thread starter Nighthawk1
- Start date
It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out. If the Kings FO feels they have to choose between Landry and Thompson I think Thompson will clearly be the one that stays. Most simply because he's under contract and Landry isn't. Not to mention I definitely could see Landry looking for a starting role elsewhere though I suppose that depends on how he's used this year and what kind of promise he sees in this young Kings team.
And while I love Landry's heart, hustle and ability to be a spark off the bench, having a slightly younger, bigger and likely cheaper guy like Thompson who can back up both the PF and C makes him a better candidate to stick around.
I think the odds are long that both Dalembert and Landry are back with the team next year but as I said, we'll have to see how it all shakes out.
And while I love Landry's heart, hustle and ability to be a spark off the bench, having a slightly younger, bigger and likely cheaper guy like Thompson who can back up both the PF and C makes him a better candidate to stick around.
I think the odds are long that both Dalembert and Landry are back with the team next year but as I said, we'll have to see how it all shakes out.
Can Dalembert guard 4s? I haven't seen enough of him to know. My impression is that he's a little too gangly, a little to unquick for that.
Let's look how Landry fits with Cousins:
Cousins rebounds; Landry doesn't (Landry weakness is offset so it's complementary)
Cousins scores inside; Landry scores inside and outside (the inside scoring of Landry seems redundant to me; Landry probably gets the ball much more outside with Cousins next to him)
Cousins I'm assuming is an average to good one-on-one defender; Landry is average (I highly doubt this pair will ever be very good as a tandem in this area)
Cousins I'm assuming is an average to good weakside defender; Landry is below average as a weakside defender (This appears to be the weakest complementary area)
So, in my best-guess analysis, this pair doesn't look all that complementary to me, especially in the all important defensive end of the floor.
Let's look how Landry fits with Cousins:
Cousins rebounds; Landry doesn't (Landry weakness is offset so it's complementary)
Cousins scores inside; Landry scores inside and outside (the inside scoring of Landry seems redundant to me; Landry probably gets the ball much more outside with Cousins next to him)
Cousins I'm assuming is an average to good one-on-one defender; Landry is average (I highly doubt this pair will ever be very good as a tandem in this area)
Cousins I'm assuming is an average to good weakside defender; Landry is below average as a weakside defender (This appears to be the weakest complementary area)
So, in my best-guess analysis, this pair doesn't look all that complementary to me, especially in the all important defensive end of the floor.
I agree that you reconsider it, and you continue evaluating until opening day, but I think we'd keep arriving at the conclusion that Dalembert should be the starter at the beginning of the season, not Cousins. And if you start Dalembert, you can start JT or Landry alongside him. I think that Landry is best off the bench, so I'd hope that JT could start, but wouldn't want to be handicapped offensively with two limited offensive big men. As far as pairings go, I think Dalembert/Landry works nicely, and Cousins/JT works nicely as well.
The main reason I think Dalembert should start is because he's an established defensive presence, and we should have him on the floor as much as possible, if for no other reason than to take pressure off of our backcourt, namely Tyreke and Francisco. I know we don't anticipate having him past this season; he might even be traded at the deadline. But we should utilize him while we do have him, and if he is a significant defensive contributor, he might have increased trade value midway through the season.
Eventually, I think our starting duo will/should be Cousins and JT, with Landry coming off the bench. Assuming Dalembert gets traded, that's probably what we'll be looking at. Landry can go back to doing what he's best at, and our young duo can gel and get ready to take the next step. Cousins should improve on help defense as his conditioning gets better, but he'll never be Dalembert. And Whiteside can be ready to be the third big after Landry leaves next summer. Meanwhile, he'll be the 4th big at the end of this season.
The main reason I think Dalembert should start is because he's an established defensive presence, and we should have him on the floor as much as possible, if for no other reason than to take pressure off of our backcourt, namely Tyreke and Francisco. I know we don't anticipate having him past this season; he might even be traded at the deadline. But we should utilize him while we do have him, and if he is a significant defensive contributor, he might have increased trade value midway through the season.
Eventually, I think our starting duo will/should be Cousins and JT, with Landry coming off the bench. Assuming Dalembert gets traded, that's probably what we'll be looking at. Landry can go back to doing what he's best at, and our young duo can gel and get ready to take the next step. Cousins should improve on help defense as his conditioning gets better, but he'll never be Dalembert. And Whiteside can be ready to be the third big after Landry leaves next summer. Meanwhile, he'll be the 4th big at the end of this season.
Dalembert is athletic, but he is NOT quick. His strength defensively is in the post. He is a good post defender, and being in the paint allows for him to play goalie. He not only is not a good defender out on the perimeter, he does not like to go out there to guard his man. That would not work when trying to guard most PFs in the NBA.
This is why I was happy before last season when Westphal was asked about his coaching philosophy. One of the things he said was that it was his job to put his 5 starters in a position to play their best. This means playing to thier strengths. Obviously, that is a lot harder to do than say. However, I think sometimes it is easy to see how NOT to utilize a player.
As I see it of the 5 bigs we have, 2 of them are better off playing one position alone, Dalembert at C and Landry at PF. The rest are flexible pieces that can be adjusted to whoever we compete againts. Cousins, Thompson, and Whiteside are a bunch of young guys who are gifted with the flexibility to switch in between C and PF.
As for Landry vs JT, I see as having both as a very nice opportunity to start the season. Landry maybe undersized but he easily out-hustles a lot of legit sized PF in this league. How many legit PF are willing to dive for lose balls just to give another position to a team? Landry may not give us a lot of position from rebounding but he is giving this team a lot of additional ball positions by being scrappy and giving 110% every freaking night.
JT? He is another scrappy player and comes with full effort every night. He is legitimately sized compared to Landy but he still have to learn to keep himself away from fouls. Another year with the team and under Westphal, he should learn a lot.
I would not mind who is starting between the 2 guys, as long as both continues to bring 110% effort on the floor. We can keep this core of 5 guys for maybe another 5 years and I would not have problem with that. If Landry/Dalembert asks for too much next season, I would respect the FO if they have to let them go.
As for Landry vs JT, I see as having both as a very nice opportunity to start the season. Landry maybe undersized but he easily out-hustles a lot of legit sized PF in this league. How many legit PF are willing to dive for lose balls just to give another position to a team? Landry may not give us a lot of position from rebounding but he is giving this team a lot of additional ball positions by being scrappy and giving 110% every freaking night.
JT? He is another scrappy player and comes with full effort every night. He is legitimately sized compared to Landy but he still have to learn to keep himself away from fouls. Another year with the team and under Westphal, he should learn a lot.
I would not mind who is starting between the 2 guys, as long as both continues to bring 110% effort on the floor. We can keep this core of 5 guys for maybe another 5 years and I would not have problem with that. If Landry/Dalembert asks for too much next season, I would respect the FO if they have to let them go.
Dalembert is a Center, Cousins is a Center, Thompson is a PF that can play Center at times, Whiteside is a true PF/C to me and Landry is a PF that can play SF at times. You got 48 min at the center position. Dalembert has averaged 24-25 min the last 2 seasons. Cousins only averaged 23 himself in college last season. I think with Cousins being a rookie 24 min is pretty good for his first season and Dalembert takes up the other 24 min. Problem solved. When the time comes and he is ready for more min then Cousins will get more min and Dalembert may drop a little. Now the problem lies in the PF position Thompson and Landry should get 30 min each, but there is a slight problem with that. By All-Star break if Cousins has shown he can handle more min without hitting a wall then he will command more min.
The Answer to your statement thought is if Cousins Can prove that he can actually play more min. at center than i would bet my paycheck dalembert will be traded to a contender at the deadline for maybe a pick and a expiring deal.but I think the Kings coveted Landry way to long to n.ot resign him at the end of the year.We will probibly have 4-5 Big men at the end of the year.Thompson,Cousins,Whiteside,Landry, and maybe Chism (Brockman replacement)
Well when you draft 2 Bigs and one of them is supposed to be our Center of the future you don't take away from them by having a 3rd year guy take min away from them in summer league. Thompson is at all the games in the stands or on the bench. Hawes made the decision not to play last year when he was asked. I don't think Thompson was asked. When a guy has been a starter for almost 2 years summer league is not for him. Same with Tyreke really.
This summer league is for Whiteside and Cousins Andre. With a small emphasis on Donte vs. Omri as well as seeing if there are any diamond in the rough guards that can make the team. IMO JT playing with this summer league team , while beneifitting maybe a tiny bit, would be a lot like Mayo or JR Smith playing (like they both have), and just a little unnecessary.
P.S. Tyreke would not have a bro to sit next to and watch the games with since Landry appears to be off training somewhere too.
P.S. Tyreke would not have a bro to sit next to and watch the games with since Landry appears to be off training somewhere too.
Unless the new CBA radically changes things, I don't really see either Dalembert or Landry on our rosters in 2012.
JT's not as good a player as Landry at the moment, but I think his PF/C game fits our current team better than Landry's more PF/SF game, so I'm okay with swapping Landry out if a good opportunity arises. Just as last year's draft suddenly made trading KMartin a good idea, I think that this year's draft is going to force Petrie to drop Big Man Plan A in favor of a more attractive Plan B.
JT's not as good a player as Landry at the moment, but I think his PF/C game fits our current team better than Landry's more PF/SF game, so I'm okay with swapping Landry out if a good opportunity arises. Just as last year's draft suddenly made trading KMartin a good idea, I think that this year's draft is going to force Petrie to drop Big Man Plan A in favor of a more attractive Plan B.
I agree with previous post - Why play people out of position!
For the current year
center- Dalembert starts, Cousins bench
Sammy has the height and experience to start
Big Cuz needs experience and can develop with minutes and playing
other team second string
PF - Both Landry and JT need PF minutes but I would start them based on matchups
dont play Landry against Big starting PFs
Whiteside develops in practice, insurance for injury, Foul problems, need his height in certain matchup situations
Next Year - Need cap space or trade for starting SG you can use Dalembert
If he can sign as LT Backup for cheap do it
If sign Dalembert based on JT's progress keep him or trade, Landry would depend on JT outcome
If Dalembert gone, keep JT and Landry
For the current year
center- Dalembert starts, Cousins bench
Sammy has the height and experience to start
Big Cuz needs experience and can develop with minutes and playing
other team second string
PF - Both Landry and JT need PF minutes but I would start them based on matchups
dont play Landry against Big starting PFs
Whiteside develops in practice, insurance for injury, Foul problems, need his height in certain matchup situations
Next Year - Need cap space or trade for starting SG you can use Dalembert
If he can sign as LT Backup for cheap do it
If sign Dalembert based on JT's progress keep him or trade, Landry would depend on JT outcome
If Dalembert gone, keep JT and Landry
I am more inclined to believe Dalembert will be the one re-signed if both Landry and Dalembert can be had for cheap. Our current needs have changed drastically after the summer league revealed a lot of what our rookies can do for the team.
IMO, it seems that with the arrival of Cousins, we don't desperately need the post scoring expertise of Landry anymore. What we still lack is that shot-blocking defensive anchor BIG ( Dalembert ) because Whiteside or Cousins appears far from being fully-developed for that role. Although Cousins with the right conditioning appears capable of playing more minutes at the C, he seems far from being the shot-blocker or potent defensive anchor that the team badly needs for a long time. Whiteside obviously has the potential but not yet ready, and it might take him at least 3-4 years to be the significant defensive anchor for the team. Dalembert is only 29 years old. He could be that defensive anchor player for the next 3-4 years while we wait for Cousins or Whiteside to fully develop.
BTW, I happen to know from one of the interviews of Dalembert that he was also coveted by the Kings starting a couple of years back. It actually made me happy proven wrong on my notion that Petrie always prefer finesse and passing bigs over defensive minded bigs. So there is half the truth in your statement on your later post that Dalembert was a scapegoat trade to get rid of Nocioni and Hawes.
IMO, it seems that with the arrival of Cousins, we don't desperately need the post scoring expertise of Landry anymore. What we still lack is that shot-blocking defensive anchor BIG ( Dalembert ) because Whiteside or Cousins appears far from being fully-developed for that role. Although Cousins with the right conditioning appears capable of playing more minutes at the C, he seems far from being the shot-blocker or potent defensive anchor that the team badly needs for a long time. Whiteside obviously has the potential but not yet ready, and it might take him at least 3-4 years to be the significant defensive anchor for the team. Dalembert is only 29 years old. He could be that defensive anchor player for the next 3-4 years while we wait for Cousins or Whiteside to fully develop.
BTW, I happen to know from one of the interviews of Dalembert that he was also coveted by the Kings starting a couple of years back. It actually made me happy proven wrong on my notion that Petrie always prefer finesse and passing bigs over defensive minded bigs. So there is half the truth in your statement on your later post that Dalembert was a scapegoat trade to get rid of Nocioni and Hawes.
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It is probably because we think those players can play out of their "known/perceived" natural position and it is worth the try to know if it will work for the improvement of our team.
Have you ever heard of the key veteran player named Pau Gasol who had been used interchageably at C and PF by the current champions Lakers?
How about Lamar Odom who plays interchangeably at PF and SF positions?
And Evans?
Have you ever heard of the key veteran player named Pau Gasol who had been used interchageably at C and PF by the current champions Lakers?
How about Lamar Odom who plays interchangeably at PF and SF positions?
And Evans?
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But some players are more suited to one particular position than another (and not capable of swinging between two or more positions). Cousins is best suited for center and not so much PF. While I realize he hasn't yet played an NBA game (summer league doesn't really count), there is no real indication he would be fast/mobile enough to play the 4 so why start plugging him in there now? The dude is a 5, let him play at the 5 (with spot minutes at the 4 when need be or to see if he can do it when needed). But playing guys out of their natural position is pretty silly. Let him get in better shape and get a training camp under his belt at the position he is best suited at before trying to move him to another.
Yes when there is a big drop off from your 3rd Big to the 4th
then you would use a 3 man rotation
This might happen due to injury since whiteside is not ready to crack the top 4
rotation. Right now we have 4 very good bigs Sammy, DMC both primary centers
Landry and JT both primary PF
If there was an injury, matchups, foul trouble, or one player in a slump amoung the 4 than with the exception of Landry
the other 3 could play the off position as part of a 3 man Big rotation
But I dont see any of the four playing out of position when all four
players are healthy or unless there are reasons to move them
JT had to play way too much C last year, and struggled doing it
Yes Gasol is one of those players that are great at both positions
but did he play much C when Bynum was in the game even though he might be better than
bynum?
then you would use a 3 man rotation
This might happen due to injury since whiteside is not ready to crack the top 4
rotation. Right now we have 4 very good bigs Sammy, DMC both primary centers
Landry and JT both primary PF
If there was an injury, matchups, foul trouble, or one player in a slump amoung the 4 than with the exception of Landry
the other 3 could play the off position as part of a 3 man Big rotation
But I dont see any of the four playing out of position when all four
players are healthy or unless there are reasons to move them
JT had to play way too much C last year, and struggled doing it
Yes Gasol is one of those players that are great at both positions
but did he play much C when Bynum was in the game even though he might be better than
bynum?
I think it was this very mentality of using players at multiple positions that hurt the development of both JT and Donte Greene. While it was obvious that JT was a PF, he also showed the ability to play SF and C. This led Theus to try to play him at all 3 positions in training camp and during his first season. The same could be said for Donte, a SF that could play SG and PF. While I like the idea of being able to use players at several positions, I think it is beneficial to have them primarily focus on their best position for their own development. Donte was hurt more by this IMO, as he seemed lost out on the floor a lot during his first season (I think because he didn't have a firm grasp on any position).
I agree with the notion that Cousins is our post player and JT should grab his missed shots. Remember at one point last year, JT was also commanding a double team, so it could work in reverse, though I'm not sure if its a good idea. My hope for this year is that JT really starts to work on his perimeter game and driving.
If we have 3 people that need a double team AND can hit outside shots.... wow this year is gonna be great!
If we have 3 people that need a double team AND can hit outside shots.... wow this year is gonna be great!
Some team is going to offer Landry a HUGE amount of money. I can almost guarantee that Landry will make atleast 10 million per season after this year. The Kings wont match an offer such as that. JT will get offers also, however they wont be in the area of Landry's. Any big man thats capable of averaging 20ppg, such as Landry, is going to make 10 million + automatically. It wont be worth keeping Landry.
I tend to agree with this. Our best bet is to try and extend him for less money this summer. However, this is super risky considering the pending lock out and the new CBA.
He is most comparable to David West in terms of production and DW is considered to have one of the better contract out there. If Gooden can get $5-6 million per season for 5 years, Landry will get around $10 million per season. At least he would have if he were a FA this year. With the new CBA it might mean he gets a lot less.
He is most comparable to David West in terms of production and DW is considered to have one of the better contract out there. If Gooden can get $5-6 million per season for 5 years, Landry will get around $10 million per season. At least he would have if he were a FA this year. With the new CBA it might mean he gets a lot less.