Kreidler: Petrie in a tight spot

[MrBiggs]

The primary difference between Webber and Stoudamire is YOUTH. Big difference there...

As far as Adelman allowing Webber to come back too soon, it wasn't Adelman's call. It is NOT the purview of the coach to decide when to bring back injured players. Period.

But it's the coach who regulates the minutes.

 

[VF21]

That wasn't what he was saying, MrBiggs... He was talking about players being brought back too early.

 

[Warhawk]

how about both?if we can somehow get away with paying bonzi 7 mil and bobby 4 mil we stay at the same cap space. maybe we can pay peja 4 mil to coem back here

Peja is done here - and he'll get better offers elsewhere (look at how well he is playing again).

If we bring back Bonzi and Bobby, where does that leave Martin and Garcia?

I think we try to get Bonzi to come back for a little less $$$ and have him starting for one more year, then re-evaluate.

 

[MrBiggs]

That wasn't what he was saying, MrBiggs... He was talking about players being brought back too early.

Part of that argument not only had to do with time after rehabilitation but also time re-adjusting to the NBA game. Which all has to do with minutes.

His very first statement:

I think Bonzi's injury came from Adelman playing him too many minutes.

You state that the primary difference between Stoudemire and Webber is youth. Common sense would state that the younger player should be able to bounce back from a common injury faster than his elder. S4CWebb stated that the Suns are more cautious about bringing Amare back than the Kings were about bringing Webb back.

You completely ignored his statement and went on to say something that tends to support his argument as opposed to debunking it.

 

[VF21]

Here's the quote and the various points he was making:

1.

I think Bonzi's injury came from Adelman playing him too many minutes.

That part is totally without basis in fact. An injury can occur at any point. Adelman has to go on what the player tells him... Bonzi has since admitted that HE was too anxious and wanted to come back before he should have.

2.

Then the medical staff should have known better than to rush him back so soon.

Again, it wasn't the medical staff OR Adelman. It was Bonzi. There are some things only a player can judge, as in how much something may hurt, etc. The coaching staff and the trainers can only go, in cases like this, on what the player tells them.

3.

I had a hamstring injury that took 6 months plus to heal and groin injuries are no different.

The two injuries ARE different as are how they can affect ordinary people as opposed to professional athletes.

4.

Note how careful the Sun's are to bring back Stoudamire and compare that to Webber's return.

I don't see any difference YET in how the two situations have been handled, although it doesn't matter in relationship to Bonzi anyway. Let's see how Amare does when he steps foot back on the court and how the Suns utilize him THEN.

5.

The Utah Jazz had always rested Malone and Stockton on the bench for the end of the first and third quarter until 4-5 minutes into the 2nd and 4th quarter. I believe that contributed to their injury free long careers.

And this is not substantiated or relevant.

6.

Also look at how slowly the Jazz have brought back Carlos Boozer and compare that to the return of Bonzi.

Again, the relevance escapes me.

Sorry, MrBiggs, but I fail to see what the problem is.

 

[Bricklayer]

Part of that argument not only had to do with time after rehabilitation but also time re-adjusting to the NBA game. Which all has to do with minutes.

His very first statement:


You state that the primary difference between Stoudemire and Webber is youth. Common sense would state that the younger player should be able to bounce back from a common injury faster than his elder. S4CWebb stated that the Suns are more cautious about bringing Amare back than the Kings were about bringing Webb back.

You completely ignored his statement and went on to say something that tends to support his argument as opposed to debunking it.

You're also ignoring the fact that the Suns have the entire Webber experience to draw upon in how they handle Amare, and that there is no "one last stand" thing hovering over their season. Nash is no spring chicken and will likely begin slowing down in a couple of years, but we were clearly staring down the age barrel and needed to get it done then or not at all.

 

[Venom]

Yeah, letting him walk was always the disaster scenario. And now that we did not move him its out there lingering and will be all summer. But to let Cat walk, and then Bonzi walk, that's a ridiculous amount of talent just to let bleed away with no return. Very poor resource management. Doesn't mean we have to bring him back, but we just have to get something in return for him at least.

I disagree. Two rolls of the dice that crapped out, but no big deal. If Bonzi was healthy we would have been able to ship him. He's not though, and Martin has filled in well. Bonzi is staring down thirty, and is a cancer when not getting the minutes he wants. If we resign Bonzi, either he or Martin or both are going to end up pissed off until they're moved, which drives down their price anyway.

We rented two moderately good OGs in back-to-back years by moving older talent for them, creating a stop gap until the younger kids were ready to play. Mobley and Wells served their purpose, ultimately. As with Cat, try to work a S&T this summer, maybe even for Nene (deja vu?). But DO NOT sign Bonzi long term. That is a bad idea, and will BLOW UP after one season.

 

[Bricklayer]

We rented two moderately good OGs in back-to-back years by moving older talent for them, creating a stop gap until the younger kids were ready to play. Mobley and Wells served their purpose, ultimately. As with Cat, try to work a S&T this summer, maybe even for Nene (deja vu?). But DO NOT sign Bonzi long term. That is a bad idea, and will BLOW UP after one season.

Not so long as he starts. And when the time has come to move to Martin, you just trade Bonzi. You don't inentionally let assets walk off the farm for free. That does nothing for us. Its just a net loss. If Bonzi walks, we are simply less talented than we are today, and there's no mitigating factor.

P.S. He has hardly crapped out. He has arguably been the single best player on the roster not names Artest. People have short memories.

 

[Venom]

Not so long as he starts. And when the time has come to move to Martin, you just trade Bonzi. You don't inentionally let assets walk off the farm for free. That does nothing for us. Its just a net loss. If Bonzi walks, we are simply less talented than we are today, and there's no mitigating factor.

P.S. He has hardly crapped out. He has arguably been the single best player on the roster not names Artest. People have short memories.

Don't get me wrong, he was good. But overall, the situation has changed, dramatically, and it would be a poor idea to retain Bonzi beyond this year. What about the interim period leading up to Martin assuming the starting role? Think Bonzi will be a happy camper? While I have no problem with the guy, and he's been great here, so far as we know, it is also well established what happens when Bonzi has his minutes diminished or even in doubt.

I don't see the "net loss". Bobby was going to walk anyway, and we rolled the dice on Bonzi. He played well, but no longer fits. Big deal. Come on Brick! You're always talking about the danger of having duplicative talent at the wrong positions, and Bonzi is essentially an older, less talented version of Artest. And he also has an upcoming young player behind him. Plus a documented attitude problem when his minutes are in question. Work a S&T by all means, but why on Earth would you sign the guy outright? Everything else is a sunk cost. What, exactly, does Bonzi bring to the table that compels the Kings to sign him this summer? Let Bonzi walk and use the MLE on whatever savvy vet the Spurs are trying to sign, then use him to back up Martin.

 

[Sac4cwebb]

When I said Adelman allowed Webber to come back too soon, I meant that he allowed Webber to return as if he had had no injury, rather than ease him back slowly off the bench, increasing his minutes based on performance. I know that Webber wanted to come back and resume his starting role, but Adelman should have done what was best for the team chemistry and Webber. That what leaders do--they make difficult unpopular choices. They bring back all players (including stars) slowly and use their bench so the regular players don't break down. I think Aldelman may have learned from the past, as he has treated Reef's return in a different manner and he is using his bench more. I also think that Adelman's dificulty in controlling Webber is the reason Webber was dealt. All I am saying is that the past actions of the coaching and medical staff have been questionable. Hopefully, they have learned a lesson. I have no qualms with the trades and draft picks. They have for the most part been stellar.

 

[SacTownKid]

Can't let the Bonz walk! No way no how. Cat was one thing, I am pretty sure most fans didn't think that re-signing him was option 1A. But Bonzi brings a different set of things to the table to just let him walk out the door.

 

[Venom]

Can't let the Bonz walk! No way no how. Cat was one thing, I am pretty sure most fans didn't think that re-signing him was option 1A. But Bonzi brings a different set of things to the table to just let him walk out the door.

Nope, check these boards man. Alot of people were freaking out that Cat signed with the Clippers. You don't want to let a superstar go for free, but players like Cat and Bonzi are a dime a dozen. Honestly, they are. We have been drafting well the last two years, and there is no compelling reason to keep Bonzi around. Good player, but not good enough to keep around for the inevitable headaches that will ensue when Martin takes even more of his minutes.

 

[Sacto=Slappo]

Quote:
The Utah Jazz had always rested Malone and Stockton on the bench for the end of the first and third quarter until 4-5 minutes into the 2nd and 4th quarter. I believe that contributed to their injury free long careers.

And this is not substantiated or relevant.


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Isn't it relevant though? I mean, vs. Portland Bibby played almost 40 mins! In a Blow-out? Seems like begging for an unnecessary injury imho.

And why would Artest play for 32 mins in a Blow-out when he's trying to recover from a hip-pointer?

I think Sac4cwebb has a point, of course then again, I aint no stinkin coach, just a fan who'll probably never understand Adelman's rotations. Love his style....hate the rotations.

Plus it hurts to watch Corliss never play any meaningful minutes. 6th man of the year doesn't deserve that. Especially while driving other players into the ground!

 

[Kings113]

Not so long as he starts. And when the time has come to move to Martin, you just trade Bonzi. You don't inentionally let assets walk off the farm for free. That does nothing for us. Its just a net loss. If Bonzi walks, we are simply less talented than we are today, and there's no mitigating factor.

P.S. He has hardly crapped out. He has arguably been the single best player on the roster not names Artest. People have short memories.

Spot on..