[Game] Kings vs Jazz 11/16/2024, 7pm PST 10pm EST
- Thread starter Tetsujin
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Do you realize who we had left to pass to? Not to mention, even at full strength, our shooting has been abysmal. Doesn’t matter if he set up the guy perfectly only for them to continue to lay bricks all game long. I’m super impressed he even managed to get to 9 given the state of the team at the moment.
What's the point in comparing Keegan (picked 4th) to the guys picked 1 and 2? We did not pass them up. The question was generally Keegan vs. Ivey or Sharpe. There were other guys in the top 10 that other people liked, but Williams was picked 12. Keegan still playing some of the best defense on the team, he's getting boards so he's still growing his game. DeMar raves about him. We're all frustrated that what made him stand out in year 1 has taken a step back but I think he's still shown he was worthy of his draft position.
The notion of expecting a star with the fourth pick in the draft is somewhat ahistorical, at least in the One-And-Done™ era. A player of Keegan Murray's caliber has, for better or worse, become good value at that position. Let's face it, for every Russell Westbrook, there are three Wesley Johnsons.
Wanting Murray to be more than he appears to be seems like more or less reasonable fandom, but expecting him to be more than he is, based on where he was drafted does not appear to be rooted in historical reality: in the 19 years since the OAD era "officially" began (2006), it has produced 5 All-Stars and 1 Hall of Famer, and it bears noting that only one of those five (Westbrook) has made the All-Star team more than once. In this era of basketball, the fourth pick has become a place where you're most likely to get a high-value roleplayer, and that's what Murray appears to be: a high-value roleplayer who, like Conley before him, could make the All-Star team in an "off" year, if he gets off to a hot start, and the Kings are winning.
Wanting Murray to be more than he appears to be seems like more or less reasonable fandom, but expecting him to be more than he is, based on where he was drafted does not appear to be rooted in historical reality: in the 19 years since the OAD era "officially" began (2006), it has produced 5 All-Stars and 1 Hall of Famer, and it bears noting that only one of those five (Westbrook) has made the All-Star team more than once. In this era of basketball, the fourth pick has become a place where you're most likely to get a high-value roleplayer, and that's what Murray appears to be: a high-value roleplayer who, like Conley before him, could make the All-Star team in an "off" year, if he gets off to a hot start, and the Kings are winning.
Murray can put up more points once his shooting comes back but if you aren't a player that has at least star if not elite guard skills you will at best be a gimmicky top option. Yeah, a Klay type is the peak of that sort of player and his guard skills are just a tad under where they'd need to be. We just saw how dependent Murray is on Domas to score sometimes. Now, Murray was also probably tired considering he's be hammered minutes wise. His rebounding and defense are far more what the team needs now along with better 3 point shooting efficiency of course but that should come.
As for Carter, the potential is there for him having really good guard skills. If Fox keeps this up, having a player that fits right in, provides needs, and has decent upside on a rookie contract that can actually help now while you're trying to compete could be a lifesaver for Montes cap. The kind of thing that allows you to still field a 5 deep in talent starting 5 without having to rely on minimum deals.
As for Carter, the potential is there for him having really good guard skills. If Fox keeps this up, having a player that fits right in, provides needs, and has decent upside on a rookie contract that can actually help now while you're trying to compete could be a lifesaver for Montes cap. The kind of thing that allows you to still field a 5 deep in talent starting 5 without having to rely on minimum deals.
Len looked better in my opinion partly because DeRozan wasn't on floor with him, so looked similar to last season ... If I'm Brown I'd consider staggering the minutes so DeRozan plays with Sabonis more, and Murray w/ Len more.
Len/Fox pick and roll was working great - Fox was getting into the lane and/or Len was, and finding buckets or kicking it out to shooter. It's a different offense w/o DeRozan in there w/ better spacing ... At very least Len & other have to figure out how to play w/ DeRozan off bench
So I don't agree Len is a "matchup guy" as a poster alluded to above. It's more-so finding the right combos, or at very least adjusting to playing w/ DeRozan as the whole bench has seemingly struggled to do.
Regardless - Sabonis being out is a great opportunity for Lyles, Len, and Robinson to all get into rhythm a bit more. Lyles already is, so I'd like more minutes for the latter 2 the next couple games (15-20 per each if Sabonis is out).
Len/Fox pick and roll was working great - Fox was getting into the lane and/or Len was, and finding buckets or kicking it out to shooter. It's a different offense w/o DeRozan in there w/ better spacing ... At very least Len & other have to figure out how to play w/ DeRozan off bench
So I don't agree Len is a "matchup guy" as a poster alluded to above. It's more-so finding the right combos, or at very least adjusting to playing w/ DeRozan as the whole bench has seemingly struggled to do.
Regardless - Sabonis being out is a great opportunity for Lyles, Len, and Robinson to all get into rhythm a bit more. Lyles already is, so I'd like more minutes for the latter 2 the next couple games (15-20 per each if Sabonis is out).
I mean my post was more about a post-DeRozan era (or a declining DeRozan era). I 100% agree that we don’t need Murray to be averaging 22 PPG while getting half of those points isoing considering the core we have today. But having said that, DeRozan is only under contract for 2 more seasons and is not getting any younger at 35 years old.
The way I see it, we could either go all in right now and maximize the fact that we have 2 go-to stars in Fox and DeRozan or we can play the longer game with the hope that we’re a championship level team when guys like Fox, Sabonis, etc. are 29-31 years old (which is 3-5 years from now which would make DeRozan 38-40 years old). If we’re pursuing the latter situation, the question becomes who will be that 2nd option next to Fox?
And this is where my previous critiques about Murray’s progression in terms of his handle and iso game are relevant. If Murray can’t eventually become that 2nd option, we’re going to have a really hard time forming a team that can be a contender considering our future cap situation. It’s not 100% hopeless but we’ll need to get lucky on a pick (whether that’s Carter or another future 1st) or we’ll need to package a lot of picks/assets to make a big trade (and even then, there are a lot of teams out there that have more picks/assets to offer up in a trade).
The way I see it, we could either go all in right now and maximize the fact that we have 2 go-to stars in Fox and DeRozan or we can play the longer game with the hope that we’re a championship level team when guys like Fox, Sabonis, etc. are 29-31 years old (which is 3-5 years from now which would make DeRozan 38-40 years old). If we’re pursuing the latter situation, the question becomes who will be that 2nd option next to Fox?
And this is where my previous critiques about Murray’s progression in terms of his handle and iso game are relevant. If Murray can’t eventually become that 2nd option, we’re going to have a really hard time forming a team that can be a contender considering our future cap situation. It’s not 100% hopeless but we’ll need to get lucky on a pick (whether that’s Carter or another future 1st) or we’ll need to package a lot of picks/assets to make a big trade (and even then, there are a lot of teams out there that have more picks/assets to offer up in a trade).
I'm comparing Keegan to other players in his exact draft class. Has nothing to do with draft position.
Ironic considering that people in this same very board constantly compared him to Paolo and tried to infer that Paolo's rookie year of 20/6/3 came on empty stats because Keegan was playing for a playoff team...
Never said he wasn't worth of his draft position, just that it's very disappointing to see other guys in draft class develop into stars while when we needed Keegan to step up, he gave us a pathetic 5pts
Ironic considering that people in this same very board constantly compared him to Paolo and tried to infer that Paolo's rookie year of 20/6/3 came on empty stats because Keegan was playing for a playoff team...
Never said he wasn't worth of his draft position, just that it's very disappointing to see other guys in draft class develop into stars while when we needed Keegan to step up, he gave us a pathetic 5pts
Keegan isn't tasked with being a scorer on this team and when we added DDR we took even more shots away from him. He is playing great defense and rebounding above his prior two years, is he not? He's doing what is asked of him by the coach and team. Is he not? He's supposed to morph into our number two scorer because our other guys or out?
I want him to shoot better from 3 and I am not making excuses for him. But jeeez, he's getting a lot of crap this year for his poor 3 point shot percentage when it seems pretty clear the team isn't prioritizing his development there.
I want him to shoot better from 3 and I am not making excuses for him. But jeeez, he's getting a lot of crap this year for his poor 3 point shot percentage when it seems pretty clear the team isn't prioritizing his development there.
Oh come on dude. If you're complaining about that compariaon and then you do the exact same thing by overvaluing a bad game.
He's playing 38 MPG and taking the toughest defensive assignment every single night. He HAS to shoot better, but to act like he's been a disappointment is really jaded and just not true
He's playing 38 MPG and taking the toughest defensive assignment every single night. He HAS to shoot better, but to act like he's been a disappointment is really jaded and just not true
Personally, even if he was shooting well from 3 this year, I’d be questioning his ceiling. His ceiling is going to be largely tied to his handle, passing, and iso scoring. I haven’t seen much improvement in those 3 areas this season but perhaps he proves me wrong as the season progresses.
Again, improving his handle, passing, and iso scoring is not a big deal with the current core. If he was hitting his 3PT shots, he’d be filling his role perfectly. The larger, long-term question is what does this team look like when DeRozan declines, retires, etc. We need a legit go-to scorer to go along with Fox and if Murray can’t be that in the long run, it’s going to be difficult for us to acquire such a player considering our assets, cap situation, etc.
Again, improving his handle, passing, and iso scoring is not a big deal with the current core. If he was hitting his 3PT shots, he’d be filling his role perfectly. The larger, long-term question is what does this team look like when DeRozan declines, retires, etc. We need a legit go-to scorer to go along with Fox and if Murray can’t be that in the long run, it’s going to be difficult for us to acquire such a player considering our assets, cap situation, etc.
My vision for this team is Fox, Sabonis and Deebo make us incredibly efficient offensively through high percentage shots and free throws, Keegan turns into MPJ offensively while being OG light on defense (to me he is nearly there on D so will the shot ever be consistent?) Devin Carter is something similar in impact to The Big Ragu and then we use a couple of firsts to trade for 3 and D players that give us more size and or athleticism (or even better Isaac Jones becomes one of those) Although certainly not guaranteed there is a path for a lot of that to happen developmentally.
That’s my all in I guess, mostly relying on internal development with a couple firsts (see Dallas) used to bring in those final pieces. Is that enough to win a championship? I dunno but it’s tough when you don’t have a top 5 player and that’s probably not in the cards no matter the transaction.
That’s my all in I guess, mostly relying on internal development with a couple firsts (see Dallas) used to bring in those final pieces. Is that enough to win a championship? I dunno but it’s tough when you don’t have a top 5 player and that’s probably not in the cards no matter the transaction.
Who said it was? Understanding the reality of our situation is different than the expectations we had for a rookie at the time we drafted him.
Personally, I wouldn’t he upset if Murray didn’t become a star player/2nd option. That was never really my expectation for him when we drafted him, but if he doesn’t become that type of player, the million dollar question is how do we form a core that can compete for a title long term?
Personally, I wouldn’t he upset if Murray didn’t become a star player/2nd option. That was never really my expectation for him when we drafted him, but if he doesn’t become that type of player, the million dollar question is how do we form a core that can compete for a title long term?
I've never seen a player be more coddled than Keegan. People are acting like the other 4 players on the floor don't also have to play defense too. The main reason why we even went out and got DDR is because Keegan showed that he couldn't become the #3 guy next to Fox and Domas.
No doubt he's been a great defender this year, but if he was doing what was asked of him, he'd be shooting 3pters a lot higher than 29.8%.He's shown no improvement on offense in year 3. In 4 out of 14 games, he's scored less than 10pts. He's only made more than 1 3pt shot in 8 out of 14 games this year...
Yes. Keegan is supposed to step up for our team when we're without DeMar, Sabonis, and Monk. Next man up is the expectation.
Giving him slack for not performing on offense is like saying Luka gets a pass on defense because he needs to carry the load of the Mavs' offense. There are plenty of 2-way players out there in the league.
I'm more disappointed in Keegan not stepping up when we need him to. I don't think it's unrealistic to ask him to do more on offense to help out Fox when we're without 3 of our best players. We needed Fox to go absolutely nuclear on back to back nights because Keegan and co. decided to sit it out on offense.
How's this acceptable from the guy everyone wanted to become the next big thing on our team?
No doubt he's been a great defender this year, but if he was doing what was asked of him, he'd be shooting 3pters a lot higher than 29.8%.He's shown no improvement on offense in year 3. In 4 out of 14 games, he's scored less than 10pts. He's only made more than 1 3pt shot in 8 out of 14 games this year...
Yes. Keegan is supposed to step up for our team when we're without DeMar, Sabonis, and Monk. Next man up is the expectation.
Giving him slack for not performing on offense is like saying Luka gets a pass on defense because he needs to carry the load of the Mavs' offense. There are plenty of 2-way players out there in the league.
I'm more disappointed in Keegan not stepping up when we need him to. I don't think it's unrealistic to ask him to do more on offense to help out Fox when we're without 3 of our best players. We needed Fox to go absolutely nuclear on back to back nights because Keegan and co. decided to sit it out on offense.
How's this acceptable from the guy everyone wanted to become the next big thing on our team?
I don’t see how Keegan is coddled… feels like he got ripped pretty good. His offensive play was extremely disappointing and nowhere near what he is capable of when he plays with aggression and confidence. For whatever reason, he is lacking that confidence.
Having said that, pretty sure he has been playing winning basketball all season and our team has been noticeably worse when he is not on the court and the stats back that up. Also “playing defense” and playing near-elite defense guarding the #1 option every night are very different things.
At the end of the day, he is impacting the game in every way except scoring lately. He has the talent. It’s disappointing when he has bad games like the last few but it seems like some people only care about box score stats. I hope he picks it up too but I’m not ready to give up on him yet.
Having said that, pretty sure he has been playing winning basketball all season and our team has been noticeably worse when he is not on the court and the stats back that up. Also “playing defense” and playing near-elite defense guarding the #1 option every night are very different things.
At the end of the day, he is impacting the game in every way except scoring lately. He has the talent. It’s disappointing when he has bad games like the last few but it seems like some people only care about box score stats. I hope he picks it up too but I’m not ready to give up on him yet.
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they ask way too much of him right now. monte needs to get another quality defender that can take on some of his burden. He probably shot well in his rookie year because he didnt have all the pressure he has now. They trying to turn him into Kawhi when he just isnt that caliber.
His shooting will obviously come back hes had stretches like this in the past and hes getting open looks. I feel like he rushes his shot at times tho. When hes balanced the shot looks good. i believe in the kid.
*one more thing i want to add. The last two novembers (2023 & 2022 seasons), he played 23 games total and shot 26% from three.. so it seems to just be a thing with him.
His shooting will obviously come back hes had stretches like this in the past and hes getting open looks. I feel like he rushes his shot at times tho. When hes balanced the shot looks good. i believe in the kid.
*one more thing i want to add. The last two novembers (2023 & 2022 seasons), he played 23 games total and shot 26% from three.. so it seems to just be a thing with him.
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I was at the game and it was VERY apparent Fox was the only real threat to create and/or touch paint. When Huerter is your second best option at creating then it makes sense you let Fox operate however he wants.
The Kings basically beat Utah with their GLeague team plus Fox and Huerter (Lyles helped with spacing and Keegan was a no-show).
The Kings were missing 4 of their 5 best on ball creators last night (yes, I'm putting Carter amongst that lot as I believe he will be amazing at that role). Also, I saw Keon having his lower back worked on before the game and at points during so I don't hold much stock in his performance, also he obviously mistook Robinson for Sabonis a couple times.
Fox carried this team last night. I had no idea Sabonis wasn't playing and when I heard Lyles introduced as the center I figured it was game over. The team was all sorts of out of sorts last night unless Fox was playing. Nobody could collapse the D on the drive except for Fox. Huerter tried with mixed results.
I dont care what anyone says, what Fox did against Utah was heroic. He willed his team to the victory. The beam was lit because Fox single handedly lit it.
The Kings basically beat Utah with their GLeague team plus Fox and Huerter (Lyles helped with spacing and Keegan was a no-show).
The Kings were missing 4 of their 5 best on ball creators last night (yes, I'm putting Carter amongst that lot as I believe he will be amazing at that role). Also, I saw Keon having his lower back worked on before the game and at points during so I don't hold much stock in his performance, also he obviously mistook Robinson for Sabonis a couple times.
Fox carried this team last night. I had no idea Sabonis wasn't playing and when I heard Lyles introduced as the center I figured it was game over. The team was all sorts of out of sorts last night unless Fox was playing. Nobody could collapse the D on the drive except for Fox. Huerter tried with mixed results.
I dont care what anyone says, what Fox did against Utah was heroic. He willed his team to the victory. The beam was lit because Fox single handedly lit it.
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I see a lot of angst with Keegan in this thread. From what I saw last night he spent too much time hiding in the corner. Very little movement.
They don't run anything for him off screens like the Warriors for Klay (and the Pacers for Miller) did. Keegan doesn't move much on offense, and nobody screens his man. That's the problem. It's coaching/scheme.
They ask so much of him defensively that they don't run anything for him off ball unless Domas is in there sucking up attention.
Last night would have been a great opportunity to do that but we didn't see it. Murray doesn't have a tight enough dribble to go one on one. He needs to move to find spots. We didn't see that. We asked him to create and that is a weakness of his.
They don't run anything for him off screens like the Warriors for Klay (and the Pacers for Miller) did. Keegan doesn't move much on offense, and nobody screens his man. That's the problem. It's coaching/scheme.
They ask so much of him defensively that they don't run anything for him off ball unless Domas is in there sucking up attention.
Last night would have been a great opportunity to do that but we didn't see it. Murray doesn't have a tight enough dribble to go one on one. He needs to move to find spots. We didn't see that. We asked him to create and that is a weakness of his.
This is one of the bigger mysteries, why does he seem to struggle in the back end of October and most if not all of November? I remember it first happened when his grandma had a medical issue in the middle of a game and he was rough for weeks after. You see this with baseball players that are known as slow starters. Fox has often been a slow starter and then is good for a three week stretch where he is playing poorly, irritated with media and dealing with some undisclosed injury. The team had a sports psychologist last year, I wonder if they do this season? Some change needs to be made with him during the early going, I wonder if he is aware of the trend?
I just got done watching the game for a second time. You are right about the movement, he was just standing around. Kev on the other hand was darting around screens and cutting, got some shot opportunities as a result. As far as going one on one, he has enough handle to do it but he has to be decisive. I counted 3 times where he made a move and then needed to either drive to the basket or pull up and shoot. He instead put himself in awkward situations where he had to pass out or hesitated. He got stripped on one iso attempt from behind but that happens. Noticeably frustrated after Lauri banked that three in and had a cheap foul a couple plays after.
Be decisive, let it fly, move and cut hard. Had he done that he probably would have had 5-7 more shot attempt which still would have been low but fit within the offense given Trey, Fox and Kev had it going.
Be decisive, let it fly, move and cut hard. Had he done that he probably would have had 5-7 more shot attempt which still would have been low but fit within the offense given Trey, Fox and Kev had it going.
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