[Game] Kings vs Heat, 1/2/2022 3pm PT/6pm ET

[steelevt]

Ok so having seen the numbers, what is your conclusion? You've asked for the data, and I've given it to you. I've even given you the data for drives since your point about playstyle is valid.

I wasn't saying that you thought Fox should get superstar calls. It was more about aptitude. If Giannis gets more FTs than Fox, it doesn't have to mean it's only because Giannis gets star calls. It could simply be that Giannis is a much better, physical player and draws more contact. So what's the point in comparing Fox to him specifically?

The issue I take with your question is that as I said, there is no logical "out". If you already presume that Fox is not getting calls, then there is no precise data that would convince you otherwise. If he averages 1 FT less than Giannis, you could still say he's not getting his fair share of calls. If he averages 4 FTs more than Giannis, you could still say he's not getting his fair share of calls, because "a foul is a foul". Then we're just stuck in playing the good ol "eye test" game which is obviously not biased and completely objective.

Well I just pointed out that your original post was flawed. Throwing out raw numbers and then throwing out big names like steph and booker and to make your point is kinda disingenuous (whether you meant to or not). I threw in Giannias’s name (as opposed to steph) only to bring up a player who plays similar to fox (mostly drives, takes a few jumpers and not known for 3s) I never said he deserves star treatment like him but I think superstar calls are bogus anyways. Jump shooters are far less likely to get fta per game vs guys that usually drive to the basket. If you would have started with the stats with drives/games and fta/game, then I believe that is a fair assessment and wouldn’t have questioned you. “Top 10 is top 10 regardless” isn’t a good argument cuz there are other factors that effect the raw stats. But like I said if you started with the stats that were more specific and compared apples to apples, I would agree with you that fox gets his fair share of calls and probably say SGA has a better argument for lack of calls.

 

[kb02]

I think this is more so an issue of how the Kings are using Len as opposed to skills. Why isn’t he a good passer? It seems to me he makes good reads a lot of the times. Hard to judge passing though when he’s not posted up much. I see Len as an effective roll guy actually - not elite, but good. I just think the Kings ignore him too much. I may be overstating it but watch len’s rolls next game. Count how many times he gets open and the kings miss him.

Ehh, I think Len is better than Vuceviv. Vucivec just has a much higher usage rate. The bulls feed him the ball in the post, he shoots jumpers, etc. His percentages are terrible actually for a big. On defense, I don’t see any argument for him being a better defender for Len. He just rebounds better though Len’s rebounding may just be a result of small sample size so far.

See above. We’re too far a part. I’ll exit the convo here.

 

[steelevt]

See above. We’re too far a part. I’ll exit the convo here.

Yeah, I know kings fans can value their own guys but you gotta compare players in the same stratosphere. Len better than Vuc? I don’t think anyone besides Len’s immediate family would agree with the OP. Kinda agree with you there’s no point in arguing if someone is that high on the guy.

 

[mac]

Well I just pointed out that your original post was flawed. Throwing out raw numbers and then throwing out big names like steph and booker and to make your point is kinda disingenuous (whether you meant to or not). I threw in Giannias’s name (as opposed to steph) only to bring up a player who plays similar to fox (mostly drives, takes a few jumpers and not known for 3s) I never said he deserves star treatment like him but I think superstar calls are bogus anyways. Jump shooters are far less likely to get fta per game vs guys that usually drive to the basket. If you would have started with the stats with drives/games and fta/game, then I believe that is a fair assessment and wouldn’t have questioned you. “Top 10 is top 10 regardless” isn’t a good argument cuz there are other factors that effect the raw stats. But like I said if you started with the stats that were more specific and compared apples to apples, I would agree with you that fox gets his fair share of calls and probably say SGA has a better argument for lack of calls.

Well I guess in my mind top 10 spoke for itself - I thought that was a very reasonable number with the only possible flaw being some huge variance within that range. Even without looking deeper in the comparison with drives/paint touches etc, I would expect Fox to be anywhere from the #5-20 range given his style of play and the amount he scores. Like I said, I think the issue is not so much about whether he doesn't get calls, but whether he doesn't get calls significantly more so than any other player.

Anyway, glad I've won you over with the numbers, and thanks for being reasonable about that.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Fox initiates contact most of the time. He gets the calls when the defenders hack his arm, or weren't in legal guarding position to begin with. What happens a lot when he doesn't get the call is he initiates contact, runs into a defender (or two), and then falls to the ground. From a Kings fan perspective, or from our horrible television personnel, this always looks like a foul but it's not.

The example above is supposition. Even if it were true, it only represents a small portion of a much larger picture.

You're subjectively surmising that he does get the calls he should, while many others subjectively surmise that he doesn't.

Mac makes a great point.....he's among the top in FTA per game this year and last, yet here we are still crying about how he "doesn't get calls."

Being among the leaders in FTA doesn't defeat the opinion that De'Aaron Fox should get more calls than he does.

Furthermore just because De'Aaron Fox gets to the FT line more than most other players (most of whom don't possess his skill set nor do they drive to the basket as often) doesn't mean he and KINGS fans should be content with the calls he does get. That's a really poor take.

So, no, Mac doesn't make such a great point.

 

[mac]

The example above is supposition. Even if it were true, it only represents a small portion of a much larger picture.

You're subjectively surmising that he does get the calls he should, while many others subjectively surmise that he doesn't.



Being among the leaders in FTA doesn't defeat the opinion that De'Aaron Fox should get more calls than he does.

Furthermore just because De'Aaron Fox gets to the FT line more than most other players (most of whom don't possess his skill set nor do they drive to the basket as often) doesn't mean he and KINGS fans should be content with the calls he does get. That's a really poor take.

So, no, Mac doesn't make such a great point.

Ok you're right, all the refs fault and Fox is clearly the most unfairly treated player in the league. Point to you. As you said, Fox is super skilled and drives to the basket a lot so he should by right be averaging 10-15 FT a game. It's only fair.

 

[NewArena]

Fox was #10 in FTA in the NBA last year at 7.2/gm, ahead of Luka, ahead of KD, ahead of Booker etc. This year despite being a "down" year, he's averaging 5.6FTA, #14 in the league ahead of Luka, Lebron, Westbrook, Paul George, Curry etc. This idea that he's somehow not given the respect he deserves by the refs is utterly ridiculous and is just another excuse in the pile of excuses for when he doesn't play well.

If you're colored surprised it's only because you have massive purple-tinted Fox glasses on and you expect him to average 30FTs a game or something.

i don't really care what the numbers show when i've seen Fox get clobbered on the way to the rim over 6,000 times in his career. Don't need to be a homer to see clearly.

Edit: Also, please don't bother quoting me with sarcasm and aggression. It ain't changing anyone's mind

 

[kb02]

Yeah, I know kings fans can value their own guys but you gotta compare players in the same stratosphere. Len better than Vuc? I don’t think anyone besides Len’s immediate family would agree with the OP. Kinda agree with you there’s no point in arguing if someone is that high on the guy.

Yea, when the gap is that wide, there's just no middle ground.

 

[mac]

i don't really care what the numbers show when i've seen Fox get clobbered on the way to the rim over 6,000 times in his career. Don't need to be a homer to see clearly.

Edit: Also, please don't bother quoting me with sarcasm and aggression. It ain't changing anyone's mind

Well therein lies the problem doesn't it.

I've also come to realise that nothing is changing 90% of this board's mind. I value those like Steelevt who I can have civil discourse with. There was a time when this board was filled with lots of people with educated ideas willing to take the effort to back up their arguments; ironic that in this modern age where data is more available then ever there is a complete lack of it here. I get it though, I've been on the board for >15 years. We get old, and we find that there are a whole lot of more important things in life than making a point on the internet. So if all you have to offer is "I've seen it with my eyes therefore it's true", then I wish you all the best and fully support you in your view.

 

[The_Jamal]

Well therein lies the problem doesn't it.

I've also come to realise that nothing is changing 90% of this board's mind. I value those like Steelevt who I can have civil discourse with. There was a time when this board was filled with lots of people with educated ideas willing to take the effort to back up their arguments; ironic that in this modern age where data is more available then ever there is a complete lack of it here. I get it though, I've been on the board for >15 years. We get old, and we find that there are a whole lot of more important things in life than making a point on the internet. So if all you have to offer is "I've seen it with my eyes therefore it's true", then I wish you all the best and fully support you in your view.

Where were you in the IT wars? Feel this completely on a lot of discussions regarding player talent and the complete disregard for stats when evaluating.

 

[Jones2006]

Yeah, I know kings fans can value their own guys but you gotta compare players in the same stratosphere. Len better than Vuc? I don’t think anyone besides Len’s immediate family would agree with the OP. Kinda agree with you there’s no point in arguing if someone is that high on the guy.

Why is Vuc better than Len? It’s simply due to meaningless things like “reputation” and counting stats that’s all tied to usage rate and shot attempts. Make the argument that if you put Vuc in Len’s role on the Kings, he’ll somehow make the defense better or score more than Len (if he’s given 2 field goal attempts per game & ignored on rolls like Len)

 

[Jones2006]

Yea, when the gap is that wide, there's just no middle ground.

How is vucevic better than Len? What does Vucevic even do well or above average? The dude is shooting 43 percent for the season and he’s an offensive minded center who is known for showing no resistance in the paint.

I don’t know how someone can analyze the Kings offensive system and think the personnel at center is the issue. The issue is the team doesn’t utilize their center enough and the forwards aren’t dynamic enough like I mentioned earlier. In actual basketball terms there’s nothing Vuc does better than Len? Is he quicker Rolling to the basket? Does he defend the paint better? Does he shoot better? Does he set better picks? Is his post defense better? No in my opinion. Objectively Len is better at all of those things.

I would love for 1 of you who is making snide remarks about my post to actually respond to any of the specific substance of what I said.

My whole point in all of this is to challenge people to analyze actual skills of centers. When you get into specifics, I think people will see that Len is an above average center who checks off a lot of boxes. Good shot blocker. Great post defense. Good roll man, finisher, set picks. Specifically I don’t see much that vucevic brings to the table counter to Len. I mean are we thinking Mitchell is gonna use a Vuc pick to then hit him as a roller 5 feet away and he’ll make that shot more than Len? Statistically that’s not accurate.

But this whole back and forth is not surprising in the least. Fans tend to think in very simplistic terms, and can’t think for themselves.

My last challenge. For those that think Vucevic (or pick another mediocre center who doesn’t defend the paint) is better than Len - what SPECIFICALLY I’m actual basketball terms does he do better ? How will the Kings actually improve by putting a Adams, Vucevic, Dwight Powell, Clint Capels, or Nurkic in place of Len? Specifically. Because in my opinion the issues in terms of lacking dynamic, athletic, defense oriented forwards and the presence of low IQ guards will still remain and nothing will change. Center isn’t the problem on this team.

I have an open mind. That’s why I’m asking. But the responses so far have literally just been that Len has a high foul rate and he’s slow on the perimeter, and that’s why he can’t start. But then someone mentions Vucevic as a guy obviously better than Len? When he’s slow footed too, probably more so. Just trying to make sense of the argument against Len and for some of these other centers. The fact that it seems people are reluctant to engage leads to me believe if there’s 1 side that doesn’t have much substance to what you’re saying, it’s not me.

 

[Dime Dropper]

How is vucevic better than Len? What does Vucevic even do well or above average? The dude is shooting 43 percent for the season and he’s an offensive minded center who is known for showing no resistance in the paint.

I don’t know how someone can analyze the Kings offensive system and think the personnel at center is the issue. The issue is the team doesn’t utilize their center enough and the forwards aren’t dynamic enough like I mentioned earlier. In actual basketball terms there’s nothing Vuc does better than Len? Is he quicker Rolling to the basket? Does he defend the paint better? Does he shoot better? Does he set better picks? Is his post defense better? No in my opinion. Objectively Len is better at all of those things.

I would love for 1 of you who is making snide remarks about my post to actually respond to any of the specific substance of what I said.

My whole point in all of this is to challenge people to analyze actual skills of centers. When you get into specifics, I think people will see that Len is an above average center who checks off a lot of boxes. Good shot blocker. Great post defense. Good roll man, finisher, set picks. Specifically I don’t see much that vucevic brings to the table counter to Len. I mean are we thinking Mitchell is gonna use a Vuc pick to then hit him as a roller 5 feet away and he’ll make that shot more than Len? Statistically that’s not accurate.

But this whole back and forth is not surprising in the least. Fans tend to think in very simplistic terms, and can’t think for themselves.

My last challenge. For those that think Vucevic (or pick another mediocre center who doesn’t defend the paint) is better than Len - what SPECIFICALLY I’m actual basketball terms does he do better ? How will the Kings actually improve by putting a Adams, Vucevic, Dwight Powell, Clint Capels, or Nurkic in place of Len? Specifically. Because in my opinion the issues in terms of lacking dynamic, athletic, defense oriented forwards and the presence of low IQ guards will still remain and nothing will change. Center isn’t the problem on this team.

You can't be serious? I'm not a Vucevic lover, but he is objectively a much better offensive player than Len. Better shooter, passer, and a better rebounder also.

I am not getting into your other points because I simply don't care. This team is bad for a myriad of reasons, some of which you pointed out.

However the idea that Len is as good, if not better than Vucevic, is laughable. There's really nothing more to it.

 

[kb02]

How is vucevic better than Len? What does Vucevic even do well or above average? The dude is shooting 43 percent for the season and he’s an offensive minded center who is known for showing no resistance in the paint.

I don’t know how someone can analyze the Kings offensive system and think the personnel at center is the issue. The issue is the team doesn’t utilize their center enough and the forwards aren’t dynamic enough like I mentioned earlier. In actual basketball terms there’s nothing Vuc does better than Len? Is he quicker Rolling to the basket? Does he defend the paint better? Does he shoot better? Does he set better picks? Is his post defense better? No in my opinion. Objectively Len is better at all of those things.

I would love for 1 of you who is making snide remarks about my post to actually respond to any of the specific substance of what I said.

My whole point in all of this is to challenge people to analyze actual skills of centers. When you get into specifics, I think people will see that Len is an above average center who checks off a lot of boxes. Good shot blocker. Great post defense. Good roll man, finisher, set picks. Specifically I don’t see much that vucevic brings to the table counter to Len. I mean are we thinking Mitchell is gonna use a Vuc pick to then hit him as a roller 5 feet away and he’ll make that shot more than Len? Statistically that’s not accurate.

But this whole back and forth is not surprising in the least. Fans tend to think in very simplistic terms, and can’t think for themselves.

My last challenge. For those that think Vucevic (or pick another mediocre center who doesn’t defend the paint) is better than Len - what SPECIFICALLY I’m actual basketball terms does he do better ? How will the Kings actually improve by putting a Adams, Vucevic, Dwight Powell, Clint Capels, or Nurkic in place of Len? Specifically. Because in my opinion the issues in terms of lacking dynamic, athletic, defense oriented forwards and the presence of low IQ guards will still remain and nothing will change. Center isn’t the problem on this team.

I have an open mind. That’s why I’m asking. But the responses so far have literally just been that Len has a high foul rate and he’s slow on the perimeter, and that’s why he can’t start. But then someone mentions Vucevic as a guy obviously better than Len? When he’s slow footed too, probably more so. Just trying to make sense of the argument against Len and for some of these other centers. The fact that it seems people are reluctant to engage leads to me believe if there’s 1 side that doesn’t have much substance to what you’re saying, it’s not me.

Watch how he scores, where he scores from, how he connects others, creates space on the floor through his shooting/passing. There's more to the game than just athleticism and rolling to the rim for a big.

 

[kb02]

Watch how he scores, where he scores from, how he connects others, creates space on the floor through his shooting/passing. There's more to the game than just athleticism and rolling to the rim for a big.

Here's one of Len's best games last year. I like Len and he's productive, but notice how limited he is relative to how Vucevic plays and connects others?

And here is Holmes' best game this year. Against the Hornets where he produced a 23/20 night. While I like Holmes, those 20/20 nights are rare and his scoring is pretty much always in the middle of the paint and within 8 feet, so he's not a great fit if Fox is the third option on the floor (after Hali and him as the rolling big). Plus pretty much non-existent facilitation. He'd be great as a bench big, feasting against second units with his energy.