[Game] Kings v. Warriors - 1//9/16 - 7 PT, 10 ET
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Caron Butler is a 14 year veteran and a 2-time All-Star. He's at the tail end of his career but he can still be an effective player in short stretches. He's also a lot less likely to make stupid mistakes than a rookie. That's why we signed him! That's why we signed Mbah a Moute too, before whatever bizarre injury happened that voided our contract but still allowed him to play 500 minutes total over 32 out of 38 games so far this season. Part of our problem is that we play out of control in the fourth quarter. We're trying to load up on guards and push the pace but we just end up throwing the ball away. Marco running to the three point line and throwing up an off balance three early in the shot-clock like he did on Saturday should never happen. We have a veteran team and a hall-of-fame coach and we're making mistakes that get you benched in middle school. There's no reason for it. We're actually playing well in the first quarter now. Why not just put that same lineup back out there in the fourth and run the offense?
I'm not going to excuse George Karl for playing Seth, Rajon, Darren, and Marco at the same time because he supposedly doesn't have the bodies to play a full-size lineup. It's a choice. Seth Curry is a decent young player but he's not so ungodly good out there that we need to play him in a 3 PG lineup and hope that "toughness and grit" will allow them to hold their own defensively. George Karl said it himself, he's crazy. He wants better defense and yet he consistently stacks his 4th quarter lineup with jump shooters who can't defend. And it's not even that they can't defend -- it's that they can't defend in the situation he puts them into. Darren Collison guarding Dirk one-on-one on a critical game deciding possession? That should never happen. Some variation on this has been happening all year long though. I watched perplexed as Blake Griffin posted-up Darren Collison again and again down the stretch three games into the season. Nothing's changed. That makes zero sense to me.
I'm not going to excuse George Karl for playing Seth, Rajon, Darren, and Marco at the same time because he supposedly doesn't have the bodies to play a full-size lineup. It's a choice. Seth Curry is a decent young player but he's not so ungodly good out there that we need to play him in a 3 PG lineup and hope that "toughness and grit" will allow them to hold their own defensively. George Karl said it himself, he's crazy. He wants better defense and yet he consistently stacks his 4th quarter lineup with jump shooters who can't defend. And it's not even that they can't defend -- it's that they can't defend in the situation he puts them into. Darren Collison guarding Dirk one-on-one on a critical game deciding possession? That should never happen. Some variation on this has been happening all year long though. I watched perplexed as Blake Griffin posted-up Darren Collison again and again down the stretch three games into the season. Nothing's changed. That makes zero sense to me.
How many minutes did this lineup of Rondo-Collison-Curry-Marco you speak of actually play together? You keep talking about these lineups with Rudy Gay at center in other posts as well. Please show me the actual minutes where this has happened.
Our typical 4th Q lineup to close games is a 3 guard lineup with Rondo, Collision, Marco/Omri and then Gay and Cousins. I too am against playing Collision with Rondo but IMO that's more a personnel issue than anything. Our guards are getting killed and blown by and it rarely has to do with the defensive scheme of switching or not. But we need them in the game because they space the floor for Cousins. Or do you really want to count on Ben to hit a critical 3 for us rather than Marco? Recent article by Aldridge says Karl wants to play Gay exclusively at 3 but hasn't been able to due to WCS being out.
Karl's rotations and systems are simply not the same as they were at the start of the season, but if you're hell bent on criticising Karl you won't see it.
Our typical 4th Q lineup to close games is a 3 guard lineup with Rondo, Collision, Marco/Omri and then Gay and Cousins. I too am against playing Collision with Rondo but IMO that's more a personnel issue than anything. Our guards are getting killed and blown by and it rarely has to do with the defensive scheme of switching or not. But we need them in the game because they space the floor for Cousins. Or do you really want to count on Ben to hit a critical 3 for us rather than Marco? Recent article by Aldridge says Karl wants to play Gay exclusively at 3 but hasn't been able to due to WCS being out.
Karl's rotations and systems are simply not the same as they were at the start of the season, but if you're hell bent on criticising Karl you won't see it.
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Karl played that 4 guard lineup and it only lasted a short time in that 4th Q IIRC but when it was out there it got shredded on defense as Livingston posted up a guy twice and then Barnes posted up a guy.
Gay played center at the end of the Charlotte away game on the last possession and Kemba Walker just blew past the guards with no,threat of a shot blocker.......and then this happened again the other night.
Karl hasn't used these moves for big stretches but he's used them in critical junctures of a game and its failed tremendously.
Also, it just seems nonsensical to keep lambasting our defense but he puts out lineups during crunch time that just aren't geared to stop other teams while we sit defensive oriented guy.
Karl's moves raise eyebrows over and over.
Gay played center at the end of the Charlotte away game on the last possession and Kemba Walker just blew past the guards with no,threat of a shot blocker.......and then this happened again the other night.
Karl hasn't used these moves for big stretches but he's used them in critical junctures of a game and its failed tremendously.
Also, it just seems nonsensical to keep lambasting our defense but he puts out lineups during crunch time that just aren't geared to stop other teams while we sit defensive oriented guy.
Karl's moves raise eyebrows over and over.
I'm not keeping track of minutes or anything, but the fact that it's happened at all is damning enough I'd say. Starting off the 4th quarter with extreme small-ball even if it only lasts for 4 minutes has been enough to completely take us out of games on several occasions. What do we really gain by having Collison and Rondo playing together? Collison tends to be overly-aggressive about forcing shots which aren't there as he seems to believe he's out there to be our closer or something even though he's not very good at it. He's a facilitator not a scorer. The more shots he forces up the less effective he is. Rondo becomes extremely passive on offense too in that lineup at which point there's no reason to even have him on the court because he's a liability defensively unless he's face guarding the other team's PG and even with the improved jumper he's not a guy you want to feed the ball to spotted up behind the arc.
Our guards are getting killed primarily in the late third to early fourth quarter of games which is precisely when Karl is playing the Rondo/Collison/Belinelli (and sometimes Seth) lineup. When it's just Ben and Rajon we're fine. Darren or Seth at PG are fine. Playing 2 or 3 PGs at once is a problem. Marco is a problem and he's not even hitting his shots consistently enough to justify the amount of run Karl gives him in the second half.
As for your rhetorical question about the Marco/Ben conundrum -- I think the production speaks for itself. Marco is averaging 4 more points per game on 40% shooting to Ben's 46%. That's the definition of a chucker. Do I really want a 37% three-point shooter taking those shots over a 33% shooter? Hell yes I do. And since he's also a better defender and doesn't chuck up crap or dribble into traps and jump-pass the ball to the other team it should be a no-brainer. I know Marco has been a consistent shooter in the past but he's taking almost exclusively low-percentage shots this season when Rondo isn't spoon-feeding him. The only advantage he has over Ben is the ability to set up other players but there's no way the trade-off is worth it. Putting the ball in Rondo's hands instead of the hybrid Darren/Marco attack means you don't need another ball-handler in the back court and frankly, DeMarcus is doing a fine job of spacing the floor on his own right now.
I can't overstate how much I hate the way George Karl is managing the fourth quarter this season. Every game I watch I feel like I'm about to have an aneurysm. Maybe to you that reads as some kind of hell-bent anti-Karl crusade but honestly, I'm just that pissed off about it. I could say a whole lot more than I am, I'm just trying to restrain myself. It gets to a point where I just can't hold it back anymore. Especially when I keep reading comments from other people pointing the finger in the wrong direction (Cousins is a cancer, Rondo is a stat-stuffer and net-detriment, Rudy is a lazy bum, Ben is a scared little pup, et al). It's all insanity as far as I'm concerned. Here's what makes sense to me: Play these guys at their natural positions, stop relying on Darren and Marco to run the offense in the fourth quarter, keep a shot blocker on the court at all times. If we don't switch our guards onto the other team's scoring bigs than we won't have to double them all the time and leave shooters wide open. This stuff is all basketball 101.
I don't put much stock into what George Karl says he wants to do anymore because his actions tell a different story. He had plenty of WCS early in the season and he stayed rooted to the bench in the 4th quarter with Ben. I make no bones about openly pining for an old-school coach like this guy who'll cut the nonsense and just teach solid fundamental basketball.
Our guards are getting killed primarily in the late third to early fourth quarter of games which is precisely when Karl is playing the Rondo/Collison/Belinelli (and sometimes Seth) lineup. When it's just Ben and Rajon we're fine. Darren or Seth at PG are fine. Playing 2 or 3 PGs at once is a problem. Marco is a problem and he's not even hitting his shots consistently enough to justify the amount of run Karl gives him in the second half.
As for your rhetorical question about the Marco/Ben conundrum -- I think the production speaks for itself. Marco is averaging 4 more points per game on 40% shooting to Ben's 46%. That's the definition of a chucker. Do I really want a 37% three-point shooter taking those shots over a 33% shooter? Hell yes I do. And since he's also a better defender and doesn't chuck up crap or dribble into traps and jump-pass the ball to the other team it should be a no-brainer. I know Marco has been a consistent shooter in the past but he's taking almost exclusively low-percentage shots this season when Rondo isn't spoon-feeding him. The only advantage he has over Ben is the ability to set up other players but there's no way the trade-off is worth it. Putting the ball in Rondo's hands instead of the hybrid Darren/Marco attack means you don't need another ball-handler in the back court and frankly, DeMarcus is doing a fine job of spacing the floor on his own right now.
I can't overstate how much I hate the way George Karl is managing the fourth quarter this season. Every game I watch I feel like I'm about to have an aneurysm. Maybe to you that reads as some kind of hell-bent anti-Karl crusade but honestly, I'm just that pissed off about it. I could say a whole lot more than I am, I'm just trying to restrain myself. It gets to a point where I just can't hold it back anymore. Especially when I keep reading comments from other people pointing the finger in the wrong direction (Cousins is a cancer, Rondo is a stat-stuffer and net-detriment, Rudy is a lazy bum, Ben is a scared little pup, et al). It's all insanity as far as I'm concerned. Here's what makes sense to me: Play these guys at their natural positions, stop relying on Darren and Marco to run the offense in the fourth quarter, keep a shot blocker on the court at all times. If we don't switch our guards onto the other team's scoring bigs than we won't have to double them all the time and leave shooters wide open. This stuff is all basketball 101.
I don't put much stock into what George Karl says he wants to do anymore because his actions tell a different story. He had plenty of WCS early in the season and he stayed rooted to the bench in the 4th quarter with Ben. I make no bones about openly pining for an old-school coach like this guy who'll cut the nonsense and just teach solid fundamental basketball.
The small ball isn't even necessary. I can understand minimally if the small guys he puts on the court could all shoot and play defense but that's the limit of my understanding. They give away a lot also.
We have a team built for "large" ball. We have three guys who I call 7 footers (Boogie's long arms count for that extra inch or so), Rudy, Acy, and Casspi. Heck let's count Butler also. I understand to a certain extent why he is bringing Willie along slowly but I don't like it one bit. Willie is probably the second fastest guy on the court next to Collison and he rarely would be in a p0sition where he needed to make a decision. He can play defense, rebound, and be on the finishing end of a fast break. He played football as a wide receiver in high school so isn't totally out of it in catching passes up court.
I'd be curious if anyone agrees with Karl. Are we all that stupid and Karl is the genius?
There are several rays of hope I have for this small ball/tall ball debate. Karl has played two seven footers at times much to my joy. I think he is playing Cousins in much better position and apparently has agreed with the guys to play two different styles.
Then there's the defense. Free Willie. I wonder how many ways we can say the same thing.
We have a team built for "large" ball. We have three guys who I call 7 footers (Boogie's long arms count for that extra inch or so), Rudy, Acy, and Casspi. Heck let's count Butler also. I understand to a certain extent why he is bringing Willie along slowly but I don't like it one bit. Willie is probably the second fastest guy on the court next to Collison and he rarely would be in a p0sition where he needed to make a decision. He can play defense, rebound, and be on the finishing end of a fast break. He played football as a wide receiver in high school so isn't totally out of it in catching passes up court.
I'd be curious if anyone agrees with Karl. Are we all that stupid and Karl is the genius?
There are several rays of hope I have for this small ball/tall ball debate. Karl has played two seven footers at times much to my joy. I think he is playing Cousins in much better position and apparently has agreed with the guys to play two different styles.
Then there's the defense. Free Willie. I wonder how many ways we can say the same thing.
K
The small ball isn't even necessary. I can understand minimally if the small guys he puts on the courtn can shoot but that's the limit of my undrestanding. They give away a lot also.
We have a team built for "large" ball. We have three guys who I call 7 footers (Boogie's long arms count for that extra inch or so), Rudy, Acy, and Casspi. Heck let's count Butler also. I understand to a certain extent why he is bringing Willie along slowly but I don't like it one bit. Willie is probably the sec9ond fastest guy on the court next to Collison and he rarely would be in a p0sition where he needed to make a decision. He can play defense, rebound, and be on the finishing end of a fast break. He played football as a wide receiver in high school so isn't totally out of it in catching passes up court.
I'd be curious if anyone agrees with Karl. Are we all that stupid and Karl is the genius?
There are several rays of hope I have for this small ball/tall ball debate. Karl has played two seven footers at times much to my joy. I think he is playing Cousins in much better position and apparently has agreed with the guys to play two different styles.
Then there's the defense. Free Willie. I wonder how many ways we can say the same thing.
We have a team built for "large" ball. We have three guys who I call 7 footers (Boogie's long arms count for that extra inch or so), Rudy, Acy, and Casspi. Heck let's count Butler also. I understand to a certain extent why he is bringing Willie along slowly but I don't like it one bit. Willie is probably the sec9ond fastest guy on the court next to Collison and he rarely would be in a p0sition where he needed to make a decision. He can play defense, rebound, and be on the finishing end of a fast break. He played football as a wide receiver in high school so isn't totally out of it in catching passes up court.
I'd be curious if anyone agrees with Karl. Are we all that stupid and Karl is the genius?
There are several rays of hope I have for this small ball/tall ball debate. Karl has played two seven footers at times much to my joy. I think he is playing Cousins in much better position and apparently has agreed with the guys to play two different styles.
Then there's the defense. Free Willie. I wonder how many ways we can say the same thing.
The small ball isn't even necessary. I can understand minimally if the small guys he puts on the court could all shoot and play defense but that's the limit of my understanding. They give away a lot also.
We have a team built for "large" ball. We have three guys who I call 7 footers (Boogie's long arms count for that extra inch or so), Rudy, Acy, and Casspi. Heck let's count Butler also. I understand to a certain extent why he is bringing Willie along slowly but I don't like it one bit. Willie is probably the second fastest guy on the court next to Collison and he rarely would be in a p0sition where he needed to make a decision. He can play defense, rebound, and be on the finishing end of a fast break. He played football as a wide receiver in high school so isn't totally out of it in catching passes up court.
I'd be curious if anyone agrees with Karl. Are we all that stupid and Karl is the genius?
There are several rays of hope I have for this small ball/tall ball debate. Karl has played two seven footers at times much to my joy. I think he is playing Cousins in much better position and apparently has agreed with the guys to play two different styles.
Then there's the defense. Free Willie. I wonder how many ways we can say the same thing.
We have a team built for "large" ball. We have three guys who I call 7 footers (Boogie's long arms count for that extra inch or so), Rudy, Acy, and Casspi. Heck let's count Butler also. I understand to a certain extent why he is bringing Willie along slowly but I don't like it one bit. Willie is probably the second fastest guy on the court next to Collison and he rarely would be in a p0sition where he needed to make a decision. He can play defense, rebound, and be on the finishing end of a fast break. He played football as a wide receiver in high school so isn't totally out of it in catching passes up court.
I'd be curious if anyone agrees with Karl. Are we all that stupid and Karl is the genius?
There are several rays of hope I have for this small ball/tall ball debate. Karl has played two seven footers at times much to my joy. I think he is playing Cousins in much better position and apparently has agreed with the guys to play two different styles.
Then there's the defense. Free Willie. I wonder how many ways we can say the same thing.
I think most of the criticism comes from conflicting basketball philosophies. There is a strong believe on this board in a slow, gritty basketball approach centered around the halfcourt and legit size at every position. In the past members of KingsFans.com preferred size over actual basketball skill or whatever reason there might be to view JT as a viable PF.
Karl seems to always go more with skill over size and is following a trend most of us dislike completely.
Now if Karl would have a full sized skilled player for the SG and PF positions, would he still play DC or Casspi over said player?
I don't think so. But we only have Ben and WCS and these guys have holes in their game, which seem to be a problem for Karl.
My knock on Karl and his coaching staff isn't his style of play. I couldn't care less about pace, Cuz shooting 3's or a switching defense. Those type of things aren't unreasonable at all.
What's bothering me is, that our coaching staff so far seems unable to teach our much needed young players, what is expected from them and how to play in a system, that's seems to be free flowing and built on a read and react approach.
Now this is not a Kings problem. The Hawks usually bring new players around slowly, because they know, that it takes time to understand their system.
The problem is, that the Kings are desperate, that we went all in in order to make something happen this season. We don't have time for growing pains or younger players struggling and we don't have the depth to equally substitute struggling players without losing production or creating missmatches on the defensive end.
K
He's the only guy on the team that right now I can say barring some crazy trade scenario where we get a legit All Star that will be on the team in 1 or 2 years (Casspi as well), from now so developing him right away is key, even if he disrupts our chance which I don't think he does in any way it would be so minor it wouldn't even be a disruption.
I said earlier I would play Willie. This note was a response to a statement that it might deprive of us in going to the post season and if that was the case, playing Willie is more important than going to the playoffs. If by the slightest of chance Willie doesn't do well and we miss the playoffs as a result of that, I wouldn't play Willie. His development is less important than the playoffs. I don't think WCS will hold us back. I think we can have our cake and eat it too. Use Willie AND go to the post season. I think Karl is too tentative or just doesn't believe a 7 footer can be this agile and therefore not a detriment to his up tempo game. Don't know if you read the full conversation.
Too much hair splitting and I'm tired.
Too much hair splitting and I'm tired.
