I'm doing no such thing, but I'm seeing more and more in the last few months how that sort of defensiveness typifies certain points of view.
I mean, that's worked like a charm the last ten years... But hey, maybe this year's
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[Game] Kings v. Grizzlies - 12/31/16 - 2PT/5ET
- Thread starter VF21
- Start date
Why? Ben Simmons is still a question mark; he might be the Australian LeBron James... presuming that he's not the Australian Greg Oden. Draft picks are just a handful of magic beans, until they turn into something. They have traded or flat waived every player they had in the last four years that was actually trying to win games. The only things we know they have are Joel Embiid, Nerlens Noel (whom they also appear to be determined to get rid of), and a bunch of trash. Would you take Embiid over Cousins? Because that seems to be the crux of that question, from my point of view.
I'd take Boogie over Embiid. One could argue talent (I'd still say DMC) but the injury history surely gives Cousins the nod.
But the Sixers also have Saric, Noel, Simmons, Okafor, Luwawu, the rights to Korkmaz, their own pick this year and the Lakers and the Kings 2019 pick. Those current players are mismatching pieces but they are assets.
Both teams are bad. Which has a better chance to improve? Hard to argue that it's the Kings with few valuable trade assets, a host of free agents, an abysmal track record of attracting quality free agents and the potential of one 1st round pick over the next three years.
How do the Kings even become a .500 team? I don't know.
Apparently by fighting for the playoffs, getting a low pick or losing it, letting Gay walk, and poof - contenders!
KingsFanGER
Starter
And how did a one year playoff push along with getting swept by Golden State influence the Pelicans ability to sign free agents?
AD was regarded as the best player to build around a couple of years ago. And he still has a way better reputation in the media than DMC.
Still everyone around here looked down on the Pelicans FA signings and considered them a massive overpay.
So from my point of view, if someone doesn't believe it's the right direction for this franchise to make the Playoffs at all costs this year, it doesn't make him entitled. I think both side have some valide points, but in the end a draft pick is something you have for sure, if you dont go the win at all costs route, while improving the team via FA and hoping a one year playoff surge will cure the bad rep of the Kings organisation is something hypothetical.
AD was regarded as the best player to build around a couple of years ago. And he still has a way better reputation in the media than DMC.
Still everyone around here looked down on the Pelicans FA signings and considered them a massive overpay.
So from my point of view, if someone doesn't believe it's the right direction for this franchise to make the Playoffs at all costs this year, it doesn't make him entitled. I think both side have some valide points, but in the end a draft pick is something you have for sure, if you dont go the win at all costs route, while improving the team via FA and hoping a one year playoff surge will cure the bad rep of the Kings organisation is something hypothetical.
You are doing exactly that and refusing to acknowledge it doesn't make it any less true. I'm not talking about the draft, I'm just talking about treating other people with respect. But if you want to play the draft card, this team would already be a top 4 team in the West if we'd just kept all the players we drafted in the last 8 years and that's not even counting the players we could have drafted like, you know, the core of the GS Warriors team that won 73 games last year. Put Whiteside, Tyreke, and IT next to Boogie Cousins and there's no way we win less than 50 games. This team hasn't sucked for 10 years solely because we relied on the draft and the draft is fool's gold. We had owners actively sabotaging the team for most of that time period followed by a rookie owner who made a lot of rookie mistakes. Boo hoo. Life goes on. Those who fail to learn from history aren't the only ones doomed to repeat it. You can also learn the wrong lessons if you're not careful which isn't any better.
I'm not being defensive it just annoys the hell out of me that you'll mouth off at someone for offering a fairly benign opinion and than double down on it as if you're the arbiter of all things fan etiquette. This is pointless and stupid. It's the debate equivalent of name-calling and it contributes nothing to the discussion but unnecessary animosity.
Because this Kings team simply isn't good. Just because every team in the west competing for the 8th spot is terrible shouldn't make the 8th seed some great accomplishment. The Kings being the best of an awful group of teams doesn't make me happy one bit.
Sure, the Kings have crapped the bed in terms of drafting quality players, but in the last decade the 3 best players to put on a Kings uniform (Cousins, Thomas and Evans) were acquired through the draft. That's practically the only way the Kings are going to get better so all this talk about the Kings not needed draft picks because they are poor at drafting is asinine.
jcwkings
All-Star
Kicking Isaiah out the door looks dumber and dumber day by day and it was very dumb the day it happend. Even worse than draft misses because he was here and already balling. Just look at how weak our backcourt is at creating offense and how much having someone like IT would open things up for shooters, and Cuz. A IT/Cuz pick and roll/pop? Good lord.
Sac.Kings
All-Star
Two things:
1. We don't have shooters. It's a huge weakness that Boston doesn't really have. Our best shooter from deep is Temple followed by Cousins.
2. IT was here, with Cousins, and it didn't work as well as it should have, although in hindsight it might have been more due to Rudy than Cousins
The one absolute thing that I completely agree is not getting anything back for IT. We handled that as poorly as we could have and our now kicking ourselves over it. This organization has a long way to go that's for sure.
Larry89
Disgruntled Kings Fan
IT and Cousins were pretty young players here though when they played together, who knows what would have happened if IT stayed. I do agree it was handled in the worst way possible, we got absolutely nothing back for IT. Tyreke wouldve also signed for a team friendly contract since he wanted to actually play here and then he wasn't resigned. We lost A TON of guard talent in a very short period of time.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
I think one of the key differences between Philly and the Kings, is that Philly has tried to be bad, and the Kings haven't. Therefore, you could to some degree, say that Philly has been successful and the Kings have failed. Right now, at this moment in time, Philly has more overall talent on their team than the Kings do. Whether that turns into success or not is yet to be determined. The Kings haven't really tried to use the draft the same way Philly has. Philly made sure that their draft picks were going to be in the top five, while the Kings kept trying to win, failing, and then picking 7th and above. Add in, that in the last 5 or so drafts, we've had three different general managers do the picking, and god knows how many different head coaches figuring out how to use those picks, and were surprised the results have been poor?
To just ignore the circumstances surrounding the results, and stamp the whole process as a bad idea makes no sense. Just because you've invested in the stock market for the last five years and lost money, doesn't mean the stock market is a bad idea. It means you don't know what your doing, and maybe you need to hire someone that does. The draft, freeagency, and trades are three ways of improving your team. It's not an either/or situation. All three can be good ideas if done properly. All three come with risks, some of them long term risks. The most risk free of the three is usually the draft. You get a young player for four years on a very cheap salary. If that picks ends up being a bust (McLemore?) most of the damage done is time lost, and reputation damage.
Sign a player to a 14 mil contract for five years and he ends up not panning out, your stuck with him unless you can convince another team that he's what they need. The main problem I see with draft picks today is the perception that they should come in and immediately impact the team. We live in the era of one and done, and the chance of that happening is slim. Yes, there is that rare player that comes along and excels immediately, but when you think about it, out of thousands of college basketball players that are draft eligible every year, maybe one or two will make an impact. What are the odds of you grabbing one of those? Draft picks should be looked at as building blocks of the future.
The Spur's are a good example of how to use the draft. They draft a player and he seems to disappear within their system almost until he forgotten. And then two or three years later, he pops up again in their rotation, and you wonder where did he come from? Where did they find this unknown player that fits so well into what they do? It's not an accident folks. I find it amazing, how on a regular basis, people on this forum will bash the draft, while at the same time lust after a player on another team, that was drafted by that team. Almost every single player in the NBA was drafted. Almost every top team in the NBA was built through the draft. But then most of those teams had a long term plan. Do we? Personally, I don't know.
I'm not "mouthing off" at anyone; pointing out X behavior is not an example of X behavior, but believing that it is is typical of the "You're the 'real' X!" thinking that I've seen more and more of lately.
Saying that fans of a losing team don't have the 'moral' high ground to look down on a shot at getting swept in the playoffs is not the same thing as looking down on fans that don't want to do that. That's ridiculous.
Luwawu? What's so intriguing to you about a wing who can't shoot? There's no indication in either his raw numbers, his per-numbers, or his advanced numbers that he's going to be any good. Korkmaz, like Simmons, is just a magic bean, until he actually shows up. It's like Kings Fans being excited about
I don't think that the Sixers have more talent than us; I think that they have the possibility of more talent than we do, but that doesn't mean much, until it's realized. I seem to recall, at one point, that Ben McLemore was thought of as having the possibility of being the best player in the 2013 draft, I remember a significant number of Kings Fans being ecstatic that he fell to seventh; a year later, we were drafting another shooting guard. Thomas Robinson also had the possibility of being a good NBA player: he's on his sixth team in five seasons.
I'm not saying that it's for sure that Philadelphia doesn't have a better future than us but, from my point of view, it's like we have fifty bucks, and they have thirty-five bucks, plus twenty-five bucks worth of scratchers. And, if even a couple of those scratchers hit for the big number, then they've got it made. Or, if they can convince somebody else to buy their scratchers for real money, then they'll likely be ahead of us. But, if none of those scratchers hit, then they've just got thirty-five bucks. I'm not prepared to say that they have a better future than we do, just because they might have a winning scratcher or two.
That seems simple enough to me, sir: a bird in the hand is worth more. People like me will "bash" (
) the draft and "lust" (again,) after players on another team, because we've seen those guys play on an NBA level, and actually know what they're capable of doing. Proven > potential. 
gunks
Hall of Famer
That seems simple enough to me, sir: a bird in the hand is worth more. People like me will "bash" (
Come on Slim, you don't want to take a chance on another Nik? Or B-Mac? Or Jimmer? Or T-Rob? Or Big Papa? Or.....
I'm still trying to figure out how me having a poor opinion of the draft got transliterated as me having a low opinion of people who have a high opinion of the draft? When did we cross the point at which people have become so invested in the stuff they like, that they interpret a attack on that stuff as a personal attack?
Blob
Starter
Isaiah is a basketball savant. He is one of a kind for a generation when you look at what he can do relative to his size (5'9"). And none of this was a secret based on what he did here. He has only gotten more confident since with all-star appearance and recent 52 point explosion. The stupidity of that decision was compounded by the projected explosion of the cap, which made offer sheet Isaiah a pittance relative to his value.
Even if you didn't think Isaiah was a starting PG, which PDA did not, even if you hated your head coach and wanted to undermine him at every turn and wanted him to fail, which PDA did, even if you were inclined to listen to your best player who wanted less shot dominant PG, which was feedback from Cousins camp, Isaiah was a no-brainer to keep on the roster as trade chip, first class character guy and one of the most exciting players in the NBA.
One of Vivek's biggest mistakes of his tenure IMHO was trusting PDA instead of his own eyes and not overriding this colossal mistake, and saying "no way" we are not letting this guy get away for nothing.
You and I aren't actually disagreeing. I wasn't super high on Luwawu (he seems like a kid who could maybe be a Thabo Sefalosha type player) but he's still a young piece. Not really much different than Bogdanovic.
What the Sixers have now is a collection of assets and one guy who looks like a cornerstone. The same sort of thing Ainge had with Paul Pierce, and a trade piece in Jefferson (along with Green, Telfair, Gomes and the Wolves own future first to return) and the fifth pick in the draft (which became Jeff Green) to trade for Ray Allen.
Will the Sixers make the right moves (I think Noel & probably Okafor have to be moved) and build a winner? Will Embiid stay healthy? Will Simmons be a player (and also stay healthy)? Will they trade their picks for vets or draft the right players with the five or six first rounders they have in the next three year? No one knows.
They could completely blow it. And the Kings could draft a 2nd rounder on the IT or Draymond level, make great signings and trades while the three rookies develop and really surprise.
But if I were a GM candidate with both jobs open and my career aspirations were tied to building a winning team that would be a no brainer.
Blob
Starter
For fans with delusional playoff pipe dreams, seduced by the fragile hold on 8th spot, the Kings are only 3 games out of 13th, and 4.5 games out of dead last in West. With tough schedule in January it is more likely we will be last than 8th at the end of the month. Look at what needs to happen for us to win half or more of games this month:
What are the odds any or all of this happens? Not good! Maybe 5-10% if you squint hard into a magical future. And this is the basis for the tone on this board, those not fooled by a 4-game win streak against dregs. This is a lot of contingencies to get back to .500 and stay in playoff chase. One thing is certain. Staying the course will not work.
- Boogie needs to play like a MVP: 30+ PPG 58%+ TS 1.5 assist to turnover (possible 2-3 games out of 5, but impossible nightly)
- Collison needs to regain peak form: 16+ PPG 6+ APG 58% TS (scheme and starters, i.e. slow pace and clogged lane, do not suit him)
- Rookies need to be a revelation (unless unlike me you have hope in Willie and Ben)
- Rudy needs to perform in crunch time (unlikely)
- Rudy needs to be traded for player who is immediately impactful (unlikely)
What are the odds any or all of this happens? Not good! Maybe 5-10% if you squint hard into a magical future. And this is the basis for the tone on this board, those not fooled by a 4-game win streak against dregs. This is a lot of contingencies to get back to .500 and stay in playoff chase. One thing is certain. Staying the course will not work.
In my mind Isaiah Thomas was always a world class, elite sixth man candidate. Obviously he is an all-star as a starter so he can be used that way too but to me, on a championship contender I would have loved IT off the bench as a dyed-in-the-wool scorer who could put up numbers against anybody.
If the Kings had taken Klay Thompson instead of Jimmer and Lillard instead of TRob then you have a killer backcourt that pairs well with Boogie and then IT destroying second units.
As Baja said, it's odd that people bash the draft because the Kings have had all these lottery picks and yet still suck. That's not because the draft isn't the best route for the Kings to acquire good or great players (which in fact, it is) it's because the Kings' front office has failed to draft the right players.
Blob
Starter
And to those suggesting in this thread we need to win to retain Boogie, of course it wouldn't hurt, but not mandatory.
If not already obvious, the Kings showed their hand with their complicit defense of Boogie when he went after reporter, who included a totally innocuous blurb about his brother. The fact Boogie went ballistic and Kings responded with a love tap shows where their hearts and minds lie. The Kings are committed to him for better or worse. Loyalty is valued by Cousins, and one likely to be reciprocated.
But this is not even the biggest factor! For those not paying attention, Boogie can get 5/220 million if he signs with us vs. 4/140 million if he leaves. This is based on new CBA and designated player rule, 35% of the cap, 8% raises vs 30% of the cap and 5% raises if greener pastures are sought.
You think a player with an ego the size of Boogie is going to turn down 200M contract and leave 80M in guaranteed money on the table? Heck no! Boogie thinks of himself as the best and wants to be compensated accordingly. He is not Duncan, on or off the court, willing to sacrifice financially to be part of something special.
The only way I see Boogie walking is if this situation becomes so intolerable and so insufferable without glimmer of hope. With even a few guys on roster providing hope, a GM and a coach willing to bend over backwards to appease him, I don't see the frustration boiling over to divorce. Not when there is that kind of money on the table, not when Boogie is guided by loyalty and ego.
There's also the rule that says if Boogie is traded the acquiring team can NOT offer him the designated player money. This will suppress offers, irresistible Godfather proposals, since the acquiring team would not be at distinct advantage to resign him.
If not already obvious, the Kings showed their hand with their complicit defense of Boogie when he went after reporter, who included a totally innocuous blurb about his brother. The fact Boogie went ballistic and Kings responded with a love tap shows where their hearts and minds lie. The Kings are committed to him for better or worse. Loyalty is valued by Cousins, and one likely to be reciprocated.
But this is not even the biggest factor! For those not paying attention, Boogie can get 5/220 million if he signs with us vs. 4/140 million if he leaves. This is based on new CBA and designated player rule, 35% of the cap, 8% raises vs 30% of the cap and 5% raises if greener pastures are sought.
You think a player with an ego the size of Boogie is going to turn down 200M contract and leave 80M in guaranteed money on the table? Heck no! Boogie thinks of himself as the best and wants to be compensated accordingly. He is not Duncan, on or off the court, willing to sacrifice financially to be part of something special.
The only way I see Boogie walking is if this situation becomes so intolerable and so insufferable without glimmer of hope. With even a few guys on roster providing hope, a GM and a coach willing to bend over backwards to appease him, I don't see the frustration boiling over to divorce. Not when there is that kind of money on the table, not when Boogie is guided by loyalty and ego.
There's also the rule that says if Boogie is traded the acquiring team can NOT offer him the designated player money. This will suppress offers, irresistible Godfather proposals, since the acquiring team would not be at distinct advantage to resign him.
It's a two way street.
I'd like to know of ANY players who would be likely to leave 80M in guaranteed money on the table.
As far as Duncan goes, he took less money to stay with the team where he achieved all of his career goals. Why wouldn't he?
To compare Boogie to Duncan is illogical in this situation.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
You know in fairness to the 76érs, I think they took the best player available every time they chose. They had no way of knowing that almost all of them would suffer an injury. As much as Okafor may not fit well along side of Embiid, he's a very good offensive player that a lot of teams would love to have. Even though all their draft picks are very talented, injuries, along with some of them not being good fits hurt Philly's Progression. To a large extent, injuries didn't allow them to see what they had, and how future picks might fit next to them. I think I could safely argue that if we had Okafor, he would be the second best big man on our roster after Cousins.
Noel would be better than anyone we have playing PF right now. The key to their team is Simmons. I'll admit, even though I was impressed with him in college, I was amazed at how skilled he was when I saw him up close and personal at summer league. He's one of the best in traffic passers I've ever seen. He has the handles of a guard, and rebounds like a PF. Only question mark is whether his outside shot will eventually match the rest of his skill level, and if it does, I predict he'll be a superstar. I'm not going out on much of a limb there.
In my humble opinion, despite their current state of affairs, Philly is better shape than we are talent wise. Whether that will add up to success or not is up for grabs. If they can trade some of the talent that doesn't fit properly for some experience that does, they could make a big leap in the East. But your right, they have to finally stay healthy. They remind me a little bit of Golden State. They drafted Curry, then Thompson and Barnes. Drafted Green, made a trade for Bogut, and wa la, they were off and running. It can happen very quickly if all the pieces compliment each other.
All you need is someone that knows what he's doing running the program. Is Vlade that guy? I guess we'll find out..
Blob
Starter
To be clear 80M amounts to potentially 45-50M in deferred money (5th year with new team) and 25-30M in lost salary. Duncan signed for 50% of his market value to stay with Spurs so they had space to add guys like Aldridge. Hypothetically if Kings came to Boogie and said here's 5 year / 200 M extension, sign here for 40M per year, I'd say Boogie and his agent would counter request for maximum (220 M). I don't think Boogie and his ego will settle for less than every last penny he can get, even if it restrains flexibility of the team to add pieces around him. Regardless it doesn't change the driving tenet of the post which is Boogie is likely to be a King for a long time. The new CBA made it so, and so did the step forward he has made in his efficiency, the viral video that diminished his trade value, and the muted response from the front office to stay in good graces.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
You make some good points. I don't necessarily agree with your position, but I understand it. As a person that watches tons of college basketball, and studies the draft, obviously I'm going to have a different outlook than you are. Let me say up front, that some drafts are more of a crap shoot than others. For instance, the chances of blowing a top pick in this coming draft are far less than in the previous couple of drafts. But, the GM than can pluck gems out of weak drafts is worth his salt. Petrie had a reputation for doing that until the Maloofs ran out of money, and suddenly he seemed to lose that ability.
I won't belabor you with a play by play of every draft we've had of late, but I think the McLemore mistake was an easy one to make. To start, it was a weak draft, at least on paper. There's always someone that exceeds expectations and becomes a star. In this case, it was McCollum. If you looked at both players before the draft, it was easy to make a case for McLemroe on potential. By the same token, it would have been easy to make a case for McCollum on results.
I had some reservations about Ben. Yes he had picture perfect form on his shot, and he shot a very good percentage from the three. He was an elite athlete to boot. But, his handles needed work and he seemed to lack aggression. He disappeared during games despite being the best shooter on the Kansas team. Sound familiar? McCollum on the other hand, was a bit undersized at 6'3" for a SG, and there was a quexstion about whether he was a PG or a Sg. he was a good athlete, but not the athlete Ben was. However, no one would have ever accused McCollum of disappearing during a game. Quite the contrary, he was the leader of the Lehigh team. The team was only as good as McCollum on any given night. I might add the McCollum was coming off an injury going into the draft as well.
So who do you draft, McCollum or McLemore? Ben played for a big time school in a big time conference, and McCollum played for a team in a lesser confernece against perceived lesser competition. I really liked McCollum, but to be honest, I struggled with that choice. I saw a lot of untapped potential in Ben, but if you go strictly on results, McCollum was the better player at that moment in time. But then again, McCollum wasn't a one and done player, so he should be better. As it turns out, we made the wrong choice. But it was a tought choice.
To my mind, Thomas Robinson wasn't a tough choice. We never should have drafted him. I had two players ahead of him on my list. Damian Lillard and Harrison Barnes. I did my best to talk myself into Robinson. I watched god knows how many games and I came away with the same question. How would what he does translate to the NBA. I sat in Unciao3's house and watched games with Robinson, and got the same response from him that I felt in my gut. That unless he could be the next Kenneth Faried, he would really struggle.
So yes, your right, it's easy to make mistakes in the draft, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use it as one of the tools to build your team. And to that end, the higher the pick you have, the better your chances of striking gold. The Lillards, Thompsons, and McCollums of the world prove you can acquire outstanding players late in the lottery, but you have to know what your doing. Sorry for being so long winded..
I think you do Cousins a big disservice. He is not the selfish egomaniac you make him out to be, but perhaps you have to live in the area to hear about a lot of the stuff he does that the national (and even local) media just somehow overlooks.
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