Kings to Las Vegas?? hmmmm....
- Thread starter CruzDude
- Start date
See VF's previous post, but I'll add that they've had to make structural repairs at times already and have had engineers in there to study how much lifespan the building has left(5 years max was the result). It was built on the cheap 20 years ago, considering how long it was really supposed to last it has exceeded expectations already. It was never intended to be around this long.
1. The arena deal has to get done. If it doesn't, then it does force the Maloofs hands to decide what's next. The rumors getting spread around don't hurt that at all. It's not at that point yet so any conversation is pure speculation.
2. Vegas? They already have the only game in town - gambling. Don't dismiss this so quickly. It's a 24/7 operation designed for out of towners to spend their money in the casinos. Everything they do is geared to that end. Their entertainment from shows to attractions are all built in house. They have a huge support system in the convention industry. All this is designed for making money in the casinos - period. So explain to me why the casinos want 17-20,000 people to get up and leave them for 3-4 hours in the middle of their busiest time of the day 40-50 times a year? They don't. That's why the shows and entertainment are built onsite. So forget the out of towners and focus on the locals. Where do they work? 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count. And do you think they punch a 9-5 clock? Don't bet on it. Vegas is all about the night life and NBA ball isn't the main course on the menu.
As for the Maloofs selling their biggest moneymaker, the Palms, and building an arena with the profits? That is pretty damn funny. That told me right there that these 2 jokers were "big hat - no cattle" in Texas terms.
2. Vegas? They already have the only game in town - gambling. Don't dismiss this so quickly. It's a 24/7 operation designed for out of towners to spend their money in the casinos. Everything they do is geared to that end. Their entertainment from shows to attractions are all built in house. They have a huge support system in the convention industry. All this is designed for making money in the casinos - period. So explain to me why the casinos want 17-20,000 people to get up and leave them for 3-4 hours in the middle of their busiest time of the day 40-50 times a year? They don't. That's why the shows and entertainment are built onsite. So forget the out of towners and focus on the locals. Where do they work? 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count. And do you think they punch a 9-5 clock? Don't bet on it. Vegas is all about the night life and NBA ball isn't the main course on the menu.
As for the Maloofs selling their biggest moneymaker, the Palms, and building an arena with the profits? That is pretty damn funny. That told me right there that these 2 jokers were "big hat - no cattle" in Texas terms.
Some aspects of most your arguments are true. Stern is reluctant to move any NBA team to Sin City. But it's also true that the Las Vegas market has increasing potential to have an NBA franchise.
DocHolliday does have a good point that if an NBA team moves in Nevada, there would have to be agreements between sports books and the Legue betting on NBA games. Right now, NBA betting is only legal in two states, Neveda being one of them. Nevada Laws need to be changed. But how can they find a solution to allow pro-sports gambling without threatening the integrity of players in the game. Well, it is a long process. Because its reprocautions can be devastating, angry people who lost their monies may take it out on the players. But more importantly, Congress has to pass it with a majority. And politics will have to come into play.
Moving a franchise is not a walk in the park. Even Stern's Napolean complex (as Reggie Miller discribed) do not have the powers to make such things happen alone.
It's Bee Journalists' job to write complications about facilities. But they exaggerate some facts to gain attention. Eventhough, it's not a big deal.
Does anybody know where the Kings would play if Arco III is being built?
DocHolliday does have a good point that if an NBA team moves in Nevada, there would have to be agreements between sports books and the Legue betting on NBA games. Right now, NBA betting is only legal in two states, Neveda being one of them. Nevada Laws need to be changed. But how can they find a solution to allow pro-sports gambling without threatening the integrity of players in the game. Well, it is a long process. Because its reprocautions can be devastating, angry people who lost their monies may take it out on the players. But more importantly, Congress has to pass it with a majority. And politics will have to come into play.
Moving a franchise is not a walk in the park. Even Stern's Napolean complex (as Reggie Miller discribed) do not have the powers to make such things happen alone.
It's Bee Journalists' job to write complications about facilities. But they exaggerate some facts to gain attention. Eventhough, it's not a big deal.
Does anybody know where the Kings would play if Arco III is being built?
One of the main attractions of the Kings is that they are small market team mixing it up with the big boys. That and their record/play last 6-7 years has created a major national/international following. The way I see it moving the franchise to Vegas could remove some of that shine and alure from the team.
I remember when couple of years ago I was offered to relocate to my employers Palo Alto offices I looked at two things before even considering it:
1. Distance to the Ocean
2. Distance to ARCO/Sacramento.
My message to the Maloofs would be: Do not mess with a winning formula - i.e. Kings in Sacramento.
I remember when couple of years ago I was offered to relocate to my employers Palo Alto offices I looked at two things before even considering it:
1. Distance to the Ocean
2. Distance to ARCO/Sacramento.
My message to the Maloofs would be: Do not mess with a winning formula - i.e. Kings in Sacramento.
I have a hunch that you're right. As mentioned by Big Waxer, this is what happens with every city when it comes time for a new arena. Just because a new deal isn't finalized yet, it fuels all kinds of rumors and wild speculation (just look at the very first post of this thread). Plus, it gives the paper more stuff to write about which is good for business.
The Kings have great fans, they love the team and the players love playing here. One way or another, the team isn't going anywhere.
The Kings have great fans, they love the team and the players love playing here. One way or another, the team isn't going anywhere.
Now everyone let's take all this energy on this and all threads of "kings to vegas" and concentrate it toward the politicians and city and county folks who will end up controlling the decision to help build or not build a new kings arena.
If everyone one of us got to 5 others who argree we need a new arena and asked each of them to do the same with 5 more each AND we had a unified front for a new arena AND if we remind them folk in the city and county that every fax X 5 X 5 VOTES........ then we get some attention.
But the city of sacramento alone will not do it. The best fans in pro sports probably hold the power to push the new arena, so lets start now. Let's get the Maloofs to get the Gov at more games and get his support, then get the big wigs in the state senate and assembly to come and see what you attending fans are really like!!!
If everyone one of us got to 5 others who argree we need a new arena and asked each of them to do the same with 5 more each AND we had a unified front for a new arena AND if we remind them folk in the city and county that every fax X 5 X 5 VOTES........ then we get some attention.
But the city of sacramento alone will not do it. The best fans in pro sports probably hold the power to push the new arena, so lets start now. Let's get the Maloofs to get the Gov at more games and get his support, then get the big wigs in the state senate and assembly to come and see what you attending fans are really like!!!
Part of the problem is the economy. California's economy has been hurting for a couple years now. In Sacramento, several large employers, like HP and NEC, have either left or downsized. There is a general feeling that we need to be careful with spending. Sacramentans have in the past approved quarter-cent sales tax hikes that were supposed to fund this or that, and in the end, only seemed to make the average Joe a little poorer. Once bitten, twice shy.
There seems to be a "logical disconnect" with respect to the alleged comments and inferences made by two proported Las Vegas "insiders."
If the city of Las Vegas is truly prepared to buy the Maloofs a new basketball arena, which is what is being implied everywhere, why would the Maloofs need to sell the Palms to generate cash for an arena?
If the Maloofs are planning to spend a few hundred million dollars to build an arena, would they build one in Sacramento or Las Vegas? I think the issue is open.
There are a lot of considerations here, and I am not just talking the prospective and proven fan bases of these towns. I am not simply assessing the initial investment. I suspect a prudent investor would have to consider long-term regional demographics and other factors. If I were looking at this deal, I would consider long-term water availability, the economic impacts of Indian gaming, and rising fuel costs.
Which region is truly the best choice? I think the issue is still open.
If the city of Las Vegas is truly prepared to buy the Maloofs a new basketball arena, which is what is being implied everywhere, why would the Maloofs need to sell the Palms to generate cash for an arena?
If the Maloofs are planning to spend a few hundred million dollars to build an arena, would they build one in Sacramento or Las Vegas? I think the issue is open.
There are a lot of considerations here, and I am not just talking the prospective and proven fan bases of these towns. I am not simply assessing the initial investment. I suspect a prudent investor would have to consider long-term regional demographics and other factors. If I were looking at this deal, I would consider long-term water availability, the economic impacts of Indian gaming, and rising fuel costs.
Which region is truly the best choice? I think the issue is still open.
quick dog said:
Which region is truly the best choice? I think the issue is still open.
CruzDude said:
I was in Las Vegas this past week at a convention. On two occasions I sat next to locals, one a prominent doctor the other a local big wig in the security industry. The subject started with the Maloof's and the Palms.
First, both have confirmed the Maloof's are selling the Palms, for a likely very tidy profit. The Maloof's are building a hotel tower and a condo tower with Phil buying a 3000 sq.ft. penthouse in one.
Then we got to the Kings. Both, on different days, said very matter-of-factly that the Kings would be in Las Vegas "in a few years". I countered that David Stern and the NBA wouldn't allow it because of the gambling angle. Both said that local powers are busy with plans to work around the gambling issue that would satisfy the NBA.
One said the sale of the Palms "probably" is to help the Maloof's finance a new arena in Vegas. Without a new arena in Sacramento, the Kings will have to leave to get a competitive arena. The lack of local hotel rooms prevents the Kings from getting the All Star game now. That plus no new arena and I seriously believe the Kings will have to leave Sacramanto.
I don't want them to leave but look at the marketing and economics delemma they face. And with a top 5-6 team every year there would be no shortage of suitors/cities led by Las Vegas. Basketball is a business. Even with the greatest fan base in pro sports, economics will eventually dictate the business.
So Sacramento, you will only have yourself to blame if the Kings leave and you revert back to the "Cow Town" that Charles Barkley once called you, and your regional, national and international attraction drops to near zero.
Remember, I'm only the messenger in this and an objective viewer of other inputs.
First, both have confirmed the Maloof's are selling the Palms, for a likely very tidy profit. The Maloof's are building a hotel tower and a condo tower with Phil buying a 3000 sq.ft. penthouse in one.
Then we got to the Kings. Both, on different days, said very matter-of-factly that the Kings would be in Las Vegas "in a few years". I countered that David Stern and the NBA wouldn't allow it because of the gambling angle. Both said that local powers are busy with plans to work around the gambling issue that would satisfy the NBA.
One said the sale of the Palms "probably" is to help the Maloof's finance a new arena in Vegas. Without a new arena in Sacramento, the Kings will have to leave to get a competitive arena. The lack of local hotel rooms prevents the Kings from getting the All Star game now. That plus no new arena and I seriously believe the Kings will have to leave Sacramanto.
I don't want them to leave but look at the marketing and economics delemma they face. And with a top 5-6 team every year there would be no shortage of suitors/cities led by Las Vegas. Basketball is a business. Even with the greatest fan base in pro sports, economics will eventually dictate the business.
So Sacramento, you will only have yourself to blame if the Kings leave and you revert back to the "Cow Town" that Charles Barkley once called you, and your regional, national and international attraction drops to near zero.
Remember, I'm only the messenger in this and an objective viewer of other inputs.
Things may have changed, but I know that the comon feeling among profesional sports leagues was that Major leage sports could not afort the apearance of impropriety that a team in a gambleing town would cary. People have forgotten 1919 Black Sox scandle but it dam near killed base ball and is the reason that major leage sports had to give so much controll to little ceasers that act as comminisioners. BTW I am not sure if the Palms sprots book allows betting on NBA at all but I know you can not bet on Kings games there... not sure if the Sports books would like to loose 82 betting oppertunities a year.
Couple of things on this subject.
First, in order for the NBA to put a team in Las Vegas then every casino in the area would have to stop taking bets on NBA games.
Second, although Vegas is one of the fastest growing cities the majority of the people that are coming there work in the hospitality industry or construction trades....not exactly the type that would by season tickets.
Third, why the hell would the Maloofs sell the Palms to build an arena in Vegas??? This makes absolutely no sense to sell a casino/hotel that is making money hand over fist to sink it into an arena???
First, in order for the NBA to put a team in Las Vegas then every casino in the area would have to stop taking bets on NBA games.
Second, although Vegas is one of the fastest growing cities the majority of the people that are coming there work in the hospitality industry or construction trades....not exactly the type that would by season tickets.
Third, why the hell would the Maloofs sell the Palms to build an arena in Vegas??? This makes absolutely no sense to sell a casino/hotel that is making money hand over fist to sink it into an arena???
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The Vegas rumor bothers me on a couple of levels. First and foremost is that I feel it detracts from the very real problem of the new Arena deal. Vegas as a destination is nothing more than a distraction from the real issue. People get sidetracked into shooting down moving the team there instead.
There are a couple fallacies that need to be dispelled in Sacramento if we hope to keep the Kings here. Of most importance is educating people on the NEED for a new Arena. Most people don't know why. I bet if I started a poll here, on a site where everyone is a rabid Kings fan, there would still be people who voted that no, the Kings don't need one.
Then there is the "the Kings won't move because we sell out every game' and the false sense of security that seems to give people. Fact of the matter is, Sacramento is a small market and the Arena itself is small (17,317) compared to others, not enough money making luxury boxes, and no lucrative TV deal. It's nice that the Comcast deal got done this year, but compared to some other TV deals it's relatively small potatoes. The team could make just as much, if not more, money in another market even without selling out. No one really considered Sacramento to be a lucrative NBA inviornment before the team moved here, either
There are a couple fallacies that need to be dispelled in Sacramento if we hope to keep the Kings here. Of most importance is educating people on the NEED for a new Arena. Most people don't know why. I bet if I started a poll here, on a site where everyone is a rabid Kings fan, there would still be people who voted that no, the Kings don't need one.
Then there is the "the Kings won't move because we sell out every game' and the false sense of security that seems to give people. Fact of the matter is, Sacramento is a small market and the Arena itself is small (17,317) compared to others, not enough money making luxury boxes, and no lucrative TV deal. It's nice that the Comcast deal got done this year, but compared to some other TV deals it's relatively small potatoes. The team could make just as much, if not more, money in another market even without selling out. No one really considered Sacramento to be a lucrative NBA inviornment before the team moved here, either
I still think the perfect solution is to merge the new arena with an Indian casino...which could be done without moving the team anywhere.
ARCO THUNDER VALLEY CASINO & ARENA
Seriously, I do not see the Maloofs pulling the team out until and unless they have exhausted all possibilities to keep it here. While Sacramento may be a smaller market, it is growing AND the fan base is still something a lot of other clubs visibly drool at.
I firmly believe the deal will get done. There are still a number of possibilities that have not been made public that I am reasonably sure are being considered, including making the arena a separate part of Maloof Sports & Entertainment. Funding could be raised from different sources.
What bothers me the most is the almost rabid way some of the Bee writers attack the idea of a new arena AND the Maloofs. It's almost as if they're hoping that if they say something enough times, some people will start to believe it.
Well, Breton and Graswich and others can sling mud at the Maloofs all they like, but they're not changing my mind. I see two team owners who love Sacramento, love the fans, love their team and its players and want to keep us all together.
Look at our former players. With a couple of notable and obvious exceptions, they talk about the organization and the Maloofs with fondness and respect.
Breton and Graswich are like the court jesters, trying to convince people how nice the Emperor's new clothes look. The truth is, IMHO, just as obvious. Just like the emperor finally realized he was being lied to and misled, I think the people who need to get on board to get this arena deal going once and for all will eventually realize people like Breton and Graswich have hidden agendas and aren't to be believed any longer.
That is my belief...and my strongest hope.
GO KINGS!!!!!
ARCO THUNDER VALLEY CASINO & ARENA
Seriously, I do not see the Maloofs pulling the team out until and unless they have exhausted all possibilities to keep it here. While Sacramento may be a smaller market, it is growing AND the fan base is still something a lot of other clubs visibly drool at.
I firmly believe the deal will get done. There are still a number of possibilities that have not been made public that I am reasonably sure are being considered, including making the arena a separate part of Maloof Sports & Entertainment. Funding could be raised from different sources.
What bothers me the most is the almost rabid way some of the Bee writers attack the idea of a new arena AND the Maloofs. It's almost as if they're hoping that if they say something enough times, some people will start to believe it.
Well, Breton and Graswich and others can sling mud at the Maloofs all they like, but they're not changing my mind. I see two team owners who love Sacramento, love the fans, love their team and its players and want to keep us all together.
Look at our former players. With a couple of notable and obvious exceptions, they talk about the organization and the Maloofs with fondness and respect.
Breton and Graswich are like the court jesters, trying to convince people how nice the Emperor's new clothes look. The truth is, IMHO, just as obvious. Just like the emperor finally realized he was being lied to and misled, I think the people who need to get on board to get this arena deal going once and for all will eventually realize people like Breton and Graswich have hidden agendas and aren't to be believed any longer.
That is my belief...and my strongest hope.
GO KINGS!!!!!
I normally won't even quote R.E. Graswich, but in today's Bee he makes a typical dig at the Kings:
That's the typical kind of blatherings R.E. Graswich includes about the Kings, and in fact it's one of the most tame statements he's made.
The City Council is miffed because they haven't gotten freebie tickets/dinners from the Maloofs? What a crock. The Maloofs have forgotten about the City Council? Excuse me? How lame is that???? Gee, City Council. Maybe you should actually pay for your own bleeping tickets instead of accepting gratuities from the team owners? Hmmm? So the Council accepted gratefully the free dinner and front-row seats and then turned around and pretty much stabbed the Maloofs in the back more than once and now they can't figure out why they're not getting the offers of tickets?
Okay...
That's the typical kind of blatherings R.E. Graswich includes about the Kings, and in fact it's one of the most tame statements he's made.
The City Council is miffed because they haven't gotten freebie tickets/dinners from the Maloofs? What a crock. The Maloofs have forgotten about the City Council? Excuse me? How lame is that???? Gee, City Council. Maybe you should actually pay for your own bleeping tickets instead of accepting gratuities from the team owners? Hmmm? So the Council accepted gratefully the free dinner and front-row seats and then turned around and pretty much stabbed the Maloofs in the back more than once and now they can't figure out why they're not getting the offers of tickets?
Okay...
VF21 said:
Hmmm? So the Council accepted gratefully the free dinner and front-row seats and then turned around and pretty much stabbed the Maloofs in the back more than once and now they can't figure out why they're not getting the offers of tickets?
Okay...
Okay...
VF21 said:
I still think the perfect solution is to merge the new arena with an Indian casino...which could be done without moving the team anywhere.
ARCO THUNDER VALLEY CASINO & ARENA
Seriously, I do not see the Maloofs pulling the team out until and unless they have exhausted all possibilities to keep it here. While Sacramento may be a smaller market, it is growing AND the fan base is still something a lot of other clubs visibly drool at.
I firmly believe the deal will get done. There are still a number of possibilities that have not been made public that I am reasonably sure are being considered, including making the arena a separate part of Maloof Sports & Entertainment. Funding could be raised from different sources.
What bothers me the most is the almost rabid way some of the Bee writers attack the idea of a new arena AND the Maloofs. It's almost as if they're hoping that if they say something enough times, some people will start to believe it.
Well, Breton and Graswich and others can sling mud at the Maloofs all they like, but they're not changing my mind. I see two team owners who love Sacramento, love the fans, love their team and its players and want to keep us all together.
Look at our former players. With a couple of notable and obvious exceptions, they talk about the organization and the Maloofs with fondness and respect.
Breton and Graswich are like the court jesters, trying to convince people how nice the Emperor's new clothes look. The truth is, IMHO, just as obvious. Just like the emperor finally realized he was being lied to and misled, I think the people who need to get on board to get this arena deal going once and for all will eventually realize people like Breton and Graswich have hidden agendas and aren't to be believed any longer.
That is my belief...and my strongest hope.
GO KINGS!!!!!
ARCO THUNDER VALLEY CASINO & ARENA
Seriously, I do not see the Maloofs pulling the team out until and unless they have exhausted all possibilities to keep it here. While Sacramento may be a smaller market, it is growing AND the fan base is still something a lot of other clubs visibly drool at.
I firmly believe the deal will get done. There are still a number of possibilities that have not been made public that I am reasonably sure are being considered, including making the arena a separate part of Maloof Sports & Entertainment. Funding could be raised from different sources.
What bothers me the most is the almost rabid way some of the Bee writers attack the idea of a new arena AND the Maloofs. It's almost as if they're hoping that if they say something enough times, some people will start to believe it.
Well, Breton and Graswich and others can sling mud at the Maloofs all they like, but they're not changing my mind. I see two team owners who love Sacramento, love the fans, love their team and its players and want to keep us all together.
Look at our former players. With a couple of notable and obvious exceptions, they talk about the organization and the Maloofs with fondness and respect.
Breton and Graswich are like the court jesters, trying to convince people how nice the Emperor's new clothes look. The truth is, IMHO, just as obvious. Just like the emperor finally realized he was being lied to and misled, I think the people who need to get on board to get this arena deal going once and for all will eventually realize people like Breton and Graswich have hidden agendas and aren't to be believed any longer.
That is my belief...and my strongest hope.
GO KINGS!!!!!
This is one of the issues at the crux of the situation. You and I won't believe it, because we have read about the issue from other sources, we have seen the engineering reports online, etc etc. We know the Maloofs are not actually Billionaires, but multi-Millionaires (a small distinction perhaps, but RE Asswhichs insistence in driving the Billionaite label down our throats at every opportunity when it just isn't quite true irks me) We know enough about sports arenas in other cities to know that asking the team owners to 'build it themselves because we are the best fans' doesn't wash in a BUSINESS situation and really isn't a viable option as it isn't a sound business decision on their part (they are first and foremost very shrewd businessmen) While I wholeheartedly agree that the Maloofs would prefer to keep the Kings here if given even the most minimal of reasonable situations, I also know that expecting them to keep the team here indefinately in the face of derision, name calling, flagging fan support, decrepit buildings and small TV deals isn't going to go on forever.
There's an interesting twist to that law. If a tribe doesn't have any land of its own, it can purchase land and designate it as tribal land. (There's a lot more to it, but that's the bottom line...) The Gold Country Casino in Oroville was built on land previously not designated as Indian land. There is a proposal before the Yuba County Board of Supervisors right now to make a portion of the land out near the Sleep-Train Amphitheatre a "rancheria" (what used to be termed "reservation"), which is the first step towards another casino. County residents are up in arms about ANOTHER casino in the general vicinity but it appears likely the move will go ahead since it can be done by the county without voter approval.
So, if that can be done, there is every likelihood a "tribe" without land to call its own just might be found. And that tribe just might end up with land in the general vicinity of Arco...
Not that I think this WILL happen but it is actually possible.
So, if that can be done, there is every likelihood a "tribe" without land to call its own just might be found. And that tribe just might end up with land in the general vicinity of Arco...
Not that I think this WILL happen but it is actually possible.
"Indian casinos" can be built on any private land. First the State Legislature determines which impromptu organizations are to be deemed to be tribes, then they decide which properties constitute tribal "Indian land". Just look at the history of that big new England casino that advertises on TV. I can't spell the State near New York, the one everyone knows I'm talking about.
